DBZ dub better if watched like US cartoon?

[Super Sonic]

Now, I'm not trying to start a sub/dub war or anything, but thought I'd ask a question, and see responses. Do you guys think the Funimation dub of Z would've been better/accepted more if people watched it like an American cartoon? What I mean is, American anime fans tend to watch anime dubs differently than they watch US cartoons. There's often a rush to criticize voices, spotting actors, music, etc, that simply doesn't happen while watching American cartoons, hence why I call doing these things "anime senses". I myself have been guilty of this, and tend to turn them off whenever watching an older anime dub I watched as a child. An example of how things are watched differently, would be how when the Ultimate Uncuts started a lot of guys criticized Raditz sounding very much like Yusuke. On the other hand US-wise I have not heard any criticism of Lindsay Naegle sounding very much like Charlotte. What do you guys think, or have you noticed if you've watched DB's dub differently than you watch Simpsons, Batman or Gargoyles, etc?

[VegettoEX]

Isn't this precisely what the vast majority of the (woefully yet cutely ignorant) younger audience did with the series in the US, both back in its original syndication, and later on Toonami...?

[NeoKING]

American cartoons/anime tend to have spot on voice acting and such, and it's usually the Japanese translations of said cartoons and anime that tend to suck. Case in point? The Spectacular Spiderman in Japanese. American version? Perfect. Japanese? Not so much. I've also heard that the Japanese version of Avatar is decent too, but the American version is much better. I dunno really, it's just that most American cartoons tend to have incredible voice acting nowadays.

But I think that's exactly how I watched Dragon Ball Z while it was on Toonami. I didn't give a damn about voices or anything like that, and I still really don't...

[sumpter360]

Well, I know that when I first watched it, I think on Kids WB?, I didn't even think of it as an anime. Being in 2nd Grade, I didn't even know what an anime was, much less the difference between that and other cartoons. Also, at that age, I didn't notice anything wrong with the dub. Ahh, how young and naive I was...

[Super Sonic]

Never thought about it like that Mr. EX. Have to say, I did the same way back when as well. (My own anime senses came into effect more when I was in college and after gotten dvd player and saw other series).

[Adamant]

I don't really understand your question, nor do I really know too much about how "American anime fans" approach dubs, and I don't really make some huge distinction between "American cartoon" and "anime" either (and they make cartoons in other countries too, you know). It's not a matter of "Japanese VS English" or "American cartoon VS anime", but "original VS retooled localization". I don't know if it's some kind of defect as a result of American kids being raised on the idea that "everything is made here", but telling the difference between something originally in your language and a dub really isn't hard at all. If the English dub of Dragonball was, somehow, created on its own, which I really can't wrap my head around, the only proper response to it would be "this is outsourced garbage, hire someone who knows English and has set a foot in the US at some point for the next season". It obviously wasn't made there, and the script is obviously not written from the ground up by a native English speaker.

[Amigo Ten]

He's asking what difference it makes to think of Funi's dub as the original version, like many kids probably did. For example, until about a year ago I had no idea that Power Rangers was a Japanese show originally, and they just cut out everything but the action scenes and filmed there own stuff to put in between. And it does make me view the show in a different way now.

Once you know a product isn't the original version, you have a whole new set of criteria to criticise it on. You're not only judging it on it's own merits, but how it compares to something else.

[Adamant]

For example, until about a year ago I had no idea that Power Rangers was a Japanese show originally, and they just cut out everything but the action scenes and filmed there own stuff to put in between. And it does make me view the show in a different way now.

That's... completely different. Everything about Power Rangers except the action scenes, which are usually little other than guys in suits punching each other, was conceptualized, written and recorded in the US (or by people from the US, at least) for that market. There was rarely any plot, script or anything like that to bring over, just scenes of stunt actors beating on each other. There was the occasional odd moment, but "Power Rangers" as a whole was very much a US-produced show.

And as I said, not only can't I understand how any kid could possibly think the series was made in the US with the English dub the original version, but if that would, somehow, the case, it would just make that "show" suck even harder, since it wouldn't even have the excuse of being a dub to explain why it clearly wasn't written by natives US citizens. "Outsourced garbage".

[Bussani]

I've noticed on several occasions that voice actors seem to sound more forced and awkward when voicing for an anime dub than they do when voicing a native US cartoon. Debi Derryberry is a good example, who sounds fine in a lot of cartoons, but I hated her as Zatch in Zatch Bell! I suspect it comes from trying to match lip flaps, which isn't something you need to do with a US cartoon.

As such, no, I don't think looking at FUNi's old dub as a cartoon really helps. It still has that awkward, unnatural, forced feel, in my opinion.

For example, until about a year ago I had no idea that Power Rangers was a Japanese show originally, and they just cut out everything but the action scenes and filmed there own stuff to put in between. And it does make me view the show in a different way now.

That's... completely different. Everything about Power Rangers except the action scenes, which are usually little other than guys in suits punching each other, was conceptualized, written and recorded in the US (or by people from the US, at least) for that market. There was rarely any plot, script or anything like that to bring over, just scenes of stunt actors beating on each other. There was the occasional odd moment, but "Power Rangers" as a whole was very much a US-produced show.

I suppose that's true, but I still think he has a point. Once you've seen Zyuranger and Dairanger, you can't help but look at the early Power Ranger seasons in a slightly different light. For one thing, Tommy's childish jumping up and down as the White Ranger makes more sense.

[Cipher]

So you're basically asking how the American localized version stands up on a show all its own, without any comparison to the original product?

It's ... okay. Sure as hell hooked me back in the day. I'll tell you this though, it's something without a lot of class or all-ages appeal. Something I'd remember fondly but wouldn't necessarily ever come back to.

[Adamant]

I suppose that's true, but I still think he has a point. Once you've seen Zyuranger and Dairanger, you can't help but look at the early Power Ranger seasons in a slightly different light. For one thing, Tommy's childish jumping up and down as the White Ranger makes more sense.

As I said, yes, there's the occasional odd moment, but still, when you spend 90% of an episode watching obviously US actors acting out an obviously US-written script obviously written for a US market, it's a lot easier to take those stunt scenes of costumed guys fighting each other as made for that series rather than reused from another, foreign one. Power Rangers really isn't trying to adapt Super Sentai, it just uses some footage from it and use it in their own plots.

[GizmoKSX]

Even with no comparison to the Japanese version, it's not particularly natural to hear "mondo cool," "Krillin's in the house," or "cat loves food, y-yeah, yeah, yeah!" Hearing Vegeta mutter "shucks, Moby Dick" didn't help either. A good portion of the dub dialog either sounds awkward or flat out doesn't make sense. (And that's without even considering the "another dimension" censorship.)

In any case, the American dub of Dragon Ball Z may have had some appeal, but as Cipher mentioned, it's not really worth revisiting. It certainly doesn't compare to its native western kid-friendly animated peers like Batman, Gargoyles, or the Ocean-voiced Beast Wars.

I don't know why it was necessary to "reversion" Dragon Ball and remove some of its eastern traits, like specific references to ki. Those of us who were middle schoolers when Dragon Ball Z aired on Toonami also grew up with Street Fighter, and we were happy to go around saying "Hadouken" and "Shoryuken." And no matter who the American movie and animated series focused on, Ryu was obviously much cooler than Guile.

[Bussani]

Power Rangers really isn't trying to adapt Super Sentai, it just uses some footage from it and use it in their own plots.

I never said otherwise. Adaption or not, I can't help but look at it differently. That's all I meant.

[Zionist]

first time I watched DBZ was when FUNi was already taking over and on Toonami I think. And I've always liked the FUNi VA's. I know others don't because it's obviously an edited dub to be kid appropriate. I never really thought much of it being a Dub until like last year or so. I never cared for the Japanese va's as I can't stand their high pitched voices and I find those to be the terrible actors compared to the English actors.

I can't imagine even trying to watch Avatar in Japanese. I imagine it would be worse than most of the crappy Batman and Superman movie remakes.

[Super Sonic]

I should mention Adamant, I was mainly speaking to the Americans and Canadians, as I knew that the guys who weren't from North America might see things differently, particularly when they bring their cartoons into the mix. What I mainly was asking was not seeing the dub as the "original" but watching without having things go through your head about voices being good or bad, and just watch.

And with the PR/Sentai thing, that's more adaptation, kinda how West Side Story is to Romeo and Juliet.

[Blue]

If DBZ was only an American cartoon I wouldn't be a fan. The music literally makes me ill. I don't know why, it really does make my head hurt and make me feel like I need to turn it off ASAP. So to me I wouldn't have been able to watch it if it had no variations.

[TonyTheTiger]

I tend to believe that the goal of a dub should be to convince the audience that the language it's dubbed in is the original language of the show. As in, never to make the audience aware that they're watching a dubbed product. I think it's when we notice the dubbing and that the script was indeed translated that we're "taken out" of the show. That ends up making it worse.

Case in point. There's a moment in the dubbed version of Evangelion that is extremely bizarre. I'm no fan of Evangelion itself but the dub is pretty shoddy and this particular scene explains why. There's a scene in which Shinji is studying English. Not the kind of literature that we'd do in an English class in the U.S. but straight up "learn how to speak the language." Ok, fine. Then Asuka shows up and they have a conversation about Shinji learning English. Then Shinji says something in English and Asuka tells him something along the lines of "say it in plain Japanese." In the dubbed version they have this entire conversation while speaking English. It's incredibly jarring for Asuka to tell Shinji in English to "stop trying to speak English and speak in Japanese."

Granted, this is one of those situations you just throw your hands in the air because it's impossible to be both accurate to the script and sensible at the same time. But, accurate or not, that was totally the wrong way to handle it.

Magic Knight Rayearth addressed a similar problem in what I think was the right way. The character Caldina speaks with a certain dialect in Japanese and the characters point it out by naming the prefecture from where her accent hails from. In the English dub they gave Caldina a southern accent which the characters then point out. It's a script change but it obviously makes more sense.

So, yeah, from that perspective it does help to pretend the dubbed language is the only language in which the show exists. Sure, if you're aware of the Japanese version you might say "that's not accurate" but imagining for a moment the Japanese version didn't exist and Asuka is really telling Shinji to "say it in plain Japanese" or the Magic Knights really are pointing out that Caldina is speaking with an accent from a certain Japanese prefecture when she's clearly speaking English and you've got a pretty crazy show there.

I do think that once we get comparison happy things start to change. Nobody in their right mind would want a character to say Asuka's lines if they were written for a U.S. produced cartoon. But clearly somebody thought it was a good idea to do it that way for a dubbed Japanese one.

And no matter who the American movie and animated series focused on, Ryu was obviously much cooler than Guile.

Useless bit of trivia: Guile and Chun-Li were originally the main characters of Street Fighter II. It was focused on their war against Bison. Ryu, Ken, and Sagat were included to link it with the previous game. That's why Ryu's ending is pointless while Guile and Chun-Li's are plot specific. The whole "Ryu is special" thing didn't really show up until Alpha when his popularity in Japan rose. I like this bit of trivia because I get to tell people that the Van Damme movie was more accurate than it's given credit for. It's one of my favorite movies so I like defending it.

[OutlawTorn]

It's kind of a tricky question because I seriously hate the Faulconer score. There are a few bits here and there which aren't total garbage, but unlike the Saban score (which I wouldn't want back in lieu of simply using the original score) the Faulconer score always grated on my nerves. Let me put it this way, with the exception of the horrible rap opening, I vastly preferred the American GT score to Faulconer's DBZ score.

I do agree that the pitchforks tend to come out far too often whenever there's a dub of an animé, whether the criticisms are rightfully deserved or whether it's just complaining for the sake of complaining.

An example of how things are watched differently, would be how when the Ultimate Uncuts started a lot of guys criticized Raditz sounding very much like Yusuke.

I think this is a fair point, actually. I'm not quite that anal when I watch animé, though, as I'll recognize voices and that will really be that. In the English dub of Digimon Savers, I recognized the voice of Gaomon (Skip Stellrecht) and realized it was a more serious version of the Might Guy voice from the English dub of Naruto.

When it comes to North American animated productions, it can be fun recognizing various voice actors. I've recognized Frank Welker in some non-Transformers shows (probably heard yet did not recognize him in many others, though) and have noticed Scott McNeil using the same voice in Beast Wars and Storm Hawks for different characters, but it's generally in regards to animé where people will criticize whether a voice is right or not. I think the only time, that I can recall, that I have agreed with such criticisms is with Frieza.

[Gaffer Tape]

Granted, this is one of those situations you just throw your hands in the air because it's impossible to be both accurate to the script and sensible at the same time. But, accurate or not, that was totally the wrong way to handle it.

Not necessarily. This kind of thing happens all the time, and it's pretty common for willing suspension of disbelief. Like historical films that take place in another country, and the Nazis all happen to be speaking English. We know they're not really speaking English, they're speaking German. It's just for our benefit.

Or in sci-fi that takes place on a different planet where we know they're really speaking a totally different language.

So if I'm watching a show that takes place in Japan, it's a no-brainer that, no matter what language I'm watching it in, the characters are "really" speaking Japanese. Therefore, lines like that wouldn't really bother me.

[TonyTheTiger]

Yeah but in Star Wars they don't go out of their way to make special reference to the "Tatooinian language" or something. The writers wouldn't do that because they know that since the characters are speaking English it's better to pretend the issue doesn't really exist rather than hang a lampshade on it. I'm sure there aren't many movies written in English but set in Germany where the English speaking actors are constantly referencing the German language for the same reason. You just sort of pretend the logical hiccup doesn't exist. That's the suspension of disbelief part.

But dubbing something where it is specifically mentioned results in the whole conversation coming off as really bizarre unless they prep the audience by using a Hunt For Red October style of "start speaking X language and fade into English" kind of thing which no dubbed anime ever does. All the Evangelion thing does is act as a big red "THIS IS DUBBED!" flag.