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AnimeMaakuo
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Post by AnimeMaakuo » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:42 pm

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Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Vagrant » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:55 pm

It's a terrible sequel because just about nothing makes any sense. It tries to recapture the sense of adventure of early Dragon Ball and at the same time get even more EXTREME FIGHTAN than DBZ, and the blend fails miserably. The real shame of GT is that it has no real feeling, theme or driving force behind it beyond straight up "let's make more money".

Throw in an absurd level of Goku power-up and the fact that most other characters essentially vanish, poor pacing and a general vibe of "pushing too far" and you get an overall horrible series. Even the weird bobble-head shiny plastic designs looked awful. I didn't care much for GT at all, long before I got into the forums and uncovered the depths of GT hatred.

As for your questions, Toriyama mostly contributed a few character designs, such as the basic "several years later" looks for several characters, designed the logo and the name of the show, designed Giru and the spaceship they travel in and a few of the planets. Nothing really story or character related at all, just visual stuff.

And I don't know if AT liked it, I'm not him.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by B » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:03 am

AnimeMaakuo wrote:Why is it that everybody seems to hate Dragon Ball GT?
I don't hate Dragon Ball GT. Are you saying my opinion means less than someone else's?
AnimeMaakuo wrote:They also say things such as: "well it's not in the manga, so it's fake, fake, fake." It seems like a very good sequel to me?!
Are you asking a question here?
AnimeMaakuo wrote:How much was Akira Toriyama really involved?
-I understand Akira Toriyama never made a manga version of it. Some people claim that he just wrote that Dbox quote because he had to. However, this doesn't make sense. Why would he write something fake, when he was involved in it, and even made some things of his own? Wasn't it stated that Toriyama had wished Son Goku could have been a kid ealier or something around the lines of? I know his opinion doesn't override others opinions, but it does show his interest right?
"Write something fake?" That note is for reals, yo. He meant it when he said he left the story up to Toei's staff. And no, Toriyama never said anything like that.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:Do you think Akira Toriyama really liked Dragon Ball GT? Also, why do you think he never truly made a manga of it?
What did he truly mean by "DragonBall GT is a grand side-story of the original DragonBall, and it'll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together." Perhaps it is true that he was giving GT a secondary status to his original manga, hence his quote of "the original dragonball." But what does this mean?
It means he wants you to(more like "would like you to," as "wanting" implies something non-neutral, which isn't Toriyama's MO) just just enjoy it for what it is. He never made a GT manga because he hates deadlines.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:When It comes to DBGT, how can the manga completely override it all like nothing. Some people don't like it, that's okay. But without Toriyama, DBGT would be a disaster period.
Define "override." And GT pretty much already is "without Toriyama." Plot twists, character dialog, animation, pacing; he contributed to none of these things.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by NeoKING » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:23 am

This is going to be a very interesting thread. No sarcasm intended; there's some good discussion going on here already, lol.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Bussani » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:27 am

AnimeMaakuo wrote:They also say things such as: "well it's not in the manga, so it's fake, fake, fake."
Are you sure you're not misunderstanding them? I don't hate GT, but I also don't factor in any information from it when talking about what Toriyama wrote. I also don't factor in filler or the movies, so it's not like I'm just picking on GT. It's not that it's "fake" (whatever that means...), but it's obviously not part of the manga-canon, and that tends to be what I focus on.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:33 am

DBGT is not bad because it's not based on the manga. It's bad because it is bad on its own merits.

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Post by AnimeMaakuo » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:44 am

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Last edited by AnimeMaakuo on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:46 am

AnimeMaakuo wrote:How so? How is it bad on its own merits?
It won't stop sucking Goku's dick.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Turtle Marked Stone » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:49 am

Rocketman wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:How so? How is it bad on its own merits?
It won't stop sucking Goku's dick.
Also the 17 saga. Pick a part in that saga..any part. Tell me it isn't awful writing that makes zero sense in any department. It makes the Boo saga's writing look like some serious masterful story telling.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:56 am

Rocketman wrote:It won't stop sucking Goku's dick.
Not really true until the first twenty-two episodes are over but, yeah. Then it's really true.

Still, I like GT for a lot of reasons, some of the same ones people hate it for. I like the fact that the characters have grown old and taken jobs and dropped out of each other's lives. I like the the art style and colors. I love, love, love the soundtrack.

There are some head-scratching moments, but none too egregious outside of the Super 17 arc, and I find in general that people have a propensity to not try to iron them out because "it's GT." A lot of commonly cited "mistakes" only take a second or two to reason through, although clarity is not the show's strong point.

But do you even need that? It's Dragon Ball. The actual tone and direction are fantastic, as are its ideas. Even in its most egregiously stupid moments, it's usually too beautifully presented to even care. It's fun, it's well-paced. Now, I can see people being outraged if they were around when it was first starting up. I'd imagine there'd be quite a negative gut reaction from manga fans to see Toei continue the series for more profit, and I can understand people not getting over it. But for those of us introduced years after its completion, or more through the anime than manga, I just don't see getting worked up about it. It's a great final chapter for Toei's version of the Dragon Ball story.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Turtle Marked Stone » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:10 am

Cipher wrote: But do you even need that? It's Dragon Ball. The actual tone and direction are fantastic, as are its ideas. Even in its most egregiously stupid moments, it's usually too beautifully presented to even care.
I actually agree in a sense. The majority of things people tend to complain about in any of the series are usually small little details that really are no big deal unless you're microscopically picking apart the series like its some great piece of well thought out literature instead of some cute kids comic book.

I think when we get to "egregiously stupid moments" I have to disagree though. Toriyama set up a well established universe with rules. Do I care about Rild's power level or any of that small little dumb stuff? No, those kinds of tiny Gamefaqs debates don't matter to me in the slightest. When you start breaking these universe rules left and right and clearly start flying off the handle with your ideas and concepts that come out of nowhere (the heaven breaking beam that execution was lifted from the Black Star saga comes to mind) you tend to lose me personally. I really don't mind the series at all but the 17 saga is the Boo saga of GT where things just start getting far, far, far too random, far too goofy and noticeably low effort (er...well lower effort). I really don't think the presentation means anything if the content is terrible.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by NeoKING » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:21 am

As fun as it can be, GT kinda does deserve the "hate"(more like "complaining" actually) that it gets. Regardless, I think GT should get more representation in the franchise. Toei made it a core part of the franchise, presenting it as a sequel and building on past elements of the series. I'd like a GT OVA/GT OVAs that re-tell the story in a more sensible manner and animated ala the Fist of the North Star: Legends of the True Savior OVAs, but we can dream, right?

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by penguintruth » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:37 am

GT is bad because:

1) It's so unnecessary. Really, DB is over. We don't need more adventures. Hell, the Buu arc was pushing it as it was.

2) Inconsistent levels of power. Goku often takes too long to defeat an opponent he should have no trouble with whatsoever. But the question is, is he supposed to be weaker now that he's a kid again, or not? It's never really established.

3) Identity Crisis. Does it want to be more like early Dragon Ball or late Dragon Ball (Z stuff)? Does it want to be more adventurous or more action-packed? Apparently, nobody at Toei knew.

4) Goku is a Child. Okay, it's funny that Pilaf made a wish in haste without realizing the dragon would take him seriously. But after that, we have to live with Goku being a kid. And it's stupid. Especially since it can't be decided whether he's as powerful as he was before or not. It's just an annoying plot element that smacks of, "Oh hey, if we make him a kid again, we can get a younger crowd to follow the show, or trick the fans of early DB into thinking it's more like that." It's so cynical.

5) Nobody Else Matters. Despite Goku being a child, he's the only who can do anything, ever. Everybody else pretty much is weak and incompetent.


GT has a few good concepts, some decent music, maybe some good character designs here and there, but that's about all it's worth.
Last edited by penguintruth on Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by AnimeMaakuo » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:37 am

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Last edited by AnimeMaakuo on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:46 am

AnimeMaakuo wrote:I know right? Tell that to the whole animated version of Dragon Ball. The whole story is based around Son Goku being the main character. Sounds like somebody needs a hug.
Goku never hogs the spotlight in DB or Z as much as he does in GT.

Toriyama's involvement has nothing to do with it.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Kendamu » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:50 am

I don't hate GT as much as I just have no interest in it.

Once it becomes available as part of FUNi's streaming I'll probably give it a look when I'm bored.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Turtle Marked Stone » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:52 am

Awful writing? They actually used #18 for once, and let's see here.. Son Goku got to use Super Dragon Fist.. Whats not to like? Toei invented it in the movies, why not use it for GT? Oh yeah that's right, Akira Toriyama didn't think of it.. Like it HAS to be made from HIM to make sense.. It's all new concepts, give it a break and use some imagination. That's what the writers did. Apparently you expected too much.
I don't care who wrote the 17 arc it is really just bad in terms of story telling. If the anime didn't ruin Hell enough they made it COMPLETELY nonsensical in that saga (so much so apparently there's a giant lab down there where people can build Cyborgs) the battle power retardation was so bad it even bugged ME and I usually don't care about that stuff. The Goku dick sucking was a huge issue here more than ever. As I already mentioned the stupid metaphysical realm breaking shit was nonsensical. The ending was flat out laughable. There's a lot more awful stuff plaguing that saga but those are just some examples I remember off the top of my head. I'm not sure why you're taking this tone with people where you seem extremely defensive over a kids cartoon. You know you don't need Daizex's validation to like what you want to like right? How about you calm down and not treat opinions on Dragonball like they're attacking your religion.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by p123 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:10 am

1) Awful story telling
2) Feats of power
3) Goku,Goku,Goku all the time
4) Two androids become one, what about that Cell guy?
5) Base Kid Goku > General Rilldo > Kid Buu
6) Super Baby Vegeta > SSJ Vegetto
7) AT's limited involvement

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by sbk » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:11 am

- I dislike the Kid Buu saga. And GT is basically the Kid Buu saga x100. I dislike how all Z-Fighters except Goku barely have an active role, they just serve as batteries for ~Goku~ (Spirit Bomb in Kid Buu saga, replenishing his energy against Baby, another Spirit Bomb against evil Shenron).
- Atleast in Z (pre-Kid Buu), the other Z-Fighters had an actual active role against most opponents instead of being merely batteries. But in GT.. Goten and Trunks want to fuse, but Goku immediately snubs them by saying that's useless. Gohan wants to help against the shadow dragons, and Goku pretty much says "Nah.. If I can't do it no one can". This really makes GT Goku unlikeable. He was never this dismissive about others in Z.
- There's also no character development whatsoever in GT. Original Dragonball had Goku growing up, and Krillin/Yamcha/Tenshinhan all had some character development thanks to their interaction with Goku. In Z, Goku (Up to Cell saga), Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta get lots of character development. In GT the characters are so static it's boring
- GT is just really boring to watch.
- Also SSJ-4.. really? Why not go SSJ-9001 while you're at it. SSJ-3 was retarded enough.
- Also, I really dislike the glossy art style they use.
Image
It is really ugly.
- And also, most characters looked old, dull, haggard or a combination of that. They looked this way at the end of Z as well, but that was only the ending, not an entire series. I loved how youthful and vibrant the characters looked in Dragonball and Dragonball Z.
- At the end of GT everybody else is just so weak and useless and incapable of defending the earth that Goku decides to become some immortal god. Not really a satisfying ending.. It's funny in a bad way when you consider how the Cell arc ended.

GT just wasn't a good series imo. I dislike the Fusion and Kid Buu sagas as much as GT, so it has nothing to do with whether Toriyama wrote it or not. But tbh, for me GT was dead on arrival, considering I really hated everything about the ending of Z (the way everyone ended up and looked), I naturally wouldn't like a sequel to that horrid ending.

The Dan Dan song is the only good thing that came from GT.
Last edited by sbk on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by DemonRin » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:28 am

To say I hate GT is a bit of a stretch, It had a few good things going for it, namely the Music and the Animation, but there were a few things I just didn't dig about it.

First, I liked the beginning "Grand Tour" aspect, the idea of traveling the Galaxy for Dragon Balls was good, even the idea of making Son a kid again was kinda neat, but a lot of the execution was really... off I thought.

I didn't like the sudden shift back to action, it didn't feel natural at all and felt more like the "It's not doing as well as we'd hoped, UP THE ACTION!" stunt that it supposedly was.
Second, I didn't like Vegeta's 180. He went right back to wanting to beat Kakarott even though he'd already had his character development and (Supposedly) given up on that. Some of the plot-holes are annoying too, and the Super 17 arc was just... lol, ok...

One of my biggest problems was the execution of Son's transformation into a Kid. I think it would have worked a LOT better if he'd only stayed a kid for the first portion of the series, and had the condition permanently fixed by the end of the Baby arc. It never rubbed me right that he STAYED a kid at all times, yet mysteriously became an adult again for his SS4 form, then mysteriously was a kid again when changing back. I think it would have made a lot more sense to either make him stay a kid even while SS4, or make the act of becoming an SS4 for the first time a permanent spell-breaker on the Kid form. Because "Lol, I can grow myself up for just this one form" thing seems REALLY odd... If I were him in that situation, I would have pulled the same stunt on the SS4 form that he did for his SS1 form back during the Cell games, and trained to make it my "natural" state so I could be grown up all the time again.

There's definitely more, but I can't think of it right now.

Truthfully, it's been a WHILE since I've seen GT. I may check it out again just for kicks. I find expectations go a long way to how well I think of something. Going into it back in the day expecting it to top Z probably factored into my feelings for it. Going back into it again now with my expectations set as low as they can be, I might get some more enjoyment out of it this time.
sbk wrote:- I dislike the Kid Buu saga. And GT is basically the Kid Buu saga x100. I dislike how all Z-Fighters except Goku barely have an active role, they just serve as batteries for ~Goku~ (Spirit Bomb in Kid Buu saga, replenishing his energy against Baby, another Spirit Bomb against evil Shenron).
- Atleast in Z (pre-Kid Buu) the other Z-Fighters had an actual active role against most opponents instead of being merely batteries. But in GT.. Goten and Trunks want to fuse, but Goku immediately snubs them by saying that's useless. Gohan wants to help against the shadow dragons, and Goku pretty much says "Nah.. If I can't do it no one can". This really makes GT Goku unlikeable. He was never this dismissive about others in Z.
I'm sorry, but it seems really odd to me that you keep stating that the Kid Boo arc was so terrible because Son had the spotlight fighting him. You can not like it for many other reasons, but the notion that the Kid Boo fight was somehow different than every other arc in DBZ is mind-numbingly odd. I just flipped through my final Kanzenban, and there are 7 chapters in the fight. Son Spends ONLY the first chapter of those 7 fighting Boo, and the rest of the chapters are taken up with Son hanging in the background "Charging" while Vegeta, Mr. Boo, and even Mr. Satan take shots at Kid Boo. Son only comes back into the fight at the VERY end to make a Genki Dama, and that was Vegeta's idea to begin with, then Mr. Satan played an integral role in getting the Earth to help. So... Yeah, it wasn't very Son-centric to be honest. And even if it was, you treat the Kid Boo arc like it was a seperate arc, like "That ONE arc was just ALL Goku!". Lol no, the Kid Boo part of the story was the end of a Much Bigger arc where other characters got plenty of time to shine, especially Goten and Trunks. MOST of the arcs before this end with a Son-centric theme. Red Ribbon Army was Son Vs the Whole Army alone, Piccolo Daimao ended up just a one-on-one bout, Son Vs. Freeza literally ended with Son and Freeza being the only two beings on an entire Planet. As I said before, with Vegeta, Mr. Boo And Satan's actions taking up MORE Panel-time than Son's fight with him... your insistance on the Kid Boo arc being all Son with none of the other fighters having an "actual active role" in the fight is laughably absurd.
The Short Version: you can hate the finale of the Boo arc for a lot of reasons, but "Nobody but Goku got to have an active role against the opponent" is blatantly wrong.
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