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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:52 pm

For starters, in the DBZ flashback, the Saiyans were natives of planet Plant. In the OVA and GT, they arrived on a big spaceship. (Well, in one version, anyway. I think they might have arrived in "Attack Balls" in the other, but I'd have to go back and compare each version.)

Didn't the new "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans" feature show yet another slightly different version of the Saiyan/Tsufruian war?
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:55 pm

As far as I remember, the whole Planet Plant thing was never mentioned in DBZ.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Cipher » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:55 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't the new "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans" feature show yet another slightly different version of the Saiyan/Tsufruian war?
As long as it doesn't show them arriving in Freeza-style pods, it's good with me. The Saiyans had to get to Planet Plant somehow; doesn't matter when.
Gaffer Tape wrote:As far as I remember, the whole Planet Plant thing was never mentioned in DBZ.
Not by name. But the Saiyan/Tsufuruian conflict is retold by Kaiou in episode 20 of Dragon Ball Z. To the over-the-top '80s stylings of "Shura-Iro No Senshi," no less.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:19 am

Cipher wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't the new "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans" feature show yet another slightly different version of the Saiyan/Tsufruian war?
As long as it doesn't show them arriving in Freeza-style pods, it's good with me. The Saiyans had to get to Planet Plant somehow; doesn't matter when.
Gaffer Tape wrote:As far as I remember, the whole Planet Plant thing was never mentioned in DBZ.
Not by name. But the Saiyan/Tsufuruian conflict is retold by Kaiou in episode 20 of Dragon Ball Z. To the over-the-top '80s stylings of "Shura-Iro No Senshi," no less.
In GT ep 27, when Baby recounts the story of the Saiyajin/Tsufurujin conflict, we see that the Saiyajins arrived in those Freeza pods(or at least it looks like it).

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Herms » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:58 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:As far as I remember, the whole Planet Plant thing was never mentioned in DBZ.
Yeah, it's not mentioned in the series. Interestingly though, in the memo Toriyama made detailing the Saiyan/Tsufruian history for the anime staff, he referred to the planet as "Planet Plant", but then crossed this out in red and wrote in "Planet Vegeta". And really oddly, this alteration is only seen in some of the reproductions of the memo found throughout the various guidebooks, so either there's at least two different copies of the memo (one with the alteration, one without), or they took pictures of the memo both before and after the alteration was made. Of course, the fact that Toriyama used the name "Planet Plant" doesn't necessarily mean that he had the whole idea about the Saiyans being alien invaders there in mind. He could have just been thinking only of the Saiyans renaming the planet once they took over, minus the part about them being invaders. Or maybe he just forgot that he had already named the Saiyans' planet "Vegeta", came up with "Plant", then made the correction when he realized his mistake.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:31 pm

Cipher wrote:As long as it doesn't show them arriving in Freeza-style pods, it's good with me. The Saiyans had to get to Planet Plant somehow; doesn't matter when.
In one version (DBZ episode 20), though, they don't even arrive on planet Plant at all; they were natives. I guess my point was, they keep retconning the story!
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:13 pm

Toriyama was involved little in most of the movies. Does that make them fake, too? I never hear people complain about that. Not only that, but whether something is canon or not, none of it is real. It's made by a Japanese guy.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:17 pm

I don't really get all involved with the canonical-or-not discussions super-in-depth myself, either... but to just dismiss it entirely with "It's by a Japanese dude, it's not real!" is kinda lame.

I mean, we all know none of it is real, but if you can't talk about it by virtue of it not being real, why on Earth are any of us here...?

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:21 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I don't really get all involved with the canonical-or-not discussions super-in-depth myself, either... but to just dismiss it entirely with "It's by a Japanese dude, it's not real!" is kinda lame.

I mean, we all know none of it is real, but if you can't talk about it by virtue of it not being real, why on Earth are any of us here...?

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I guess you're right, but still, I hate seeing people use that as their only excuse.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Herms » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:37 pm

Pokewhiz7 wrote:Toriyama was involved little in most of the movies. Does that make them fake, too? I never hear people complain about that.
Well, I think it's virtually universal for fans to view the movies as "what-if" side-stories and not part of the main continuity (ie the canon).
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:56 am

Pokewhiz7 wrote:Toriyama was involved little in most of the movies. Does that make them fake, too? I never hear people complain about that.
Canonicity has nothing to do with "fake". That's a really poor choice of wording. Like Herms says, most people accept that the movies aren't canon to the manga.
Not only that, but whether something is canon or not, none of it is real. It's made by a Japanese guy.
Canonicity has nothing to do with "real". It's about continuity. Obviously this is fiction, and we're talking about fictional continuity, but that's certainly not meaningless. If it were, writing would be incredibly easy and stories would make no sense.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by TenshinFan » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:17 pm

Hi. Just wanna say:

Anyone who judges GT by the Super 17 Saga is a moron.

That's like judging DBZ by the Garlic Junior Saga.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by TripleRach » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:55 pm

TenshinFan wrote:Anyone who judges GT by the Super 17 Saga is a moron.

That's like judging DBZ by the Garlic Junior Saga.
Except that the Super #17 arc is integral to GT's plot. Garlic Jr is at least completely skippable and has no bearing on the rest of DBZ.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Fox666 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:08 pm

TenshinFan wrote:Hi. Just wanna say:

Anyone who judges GT by the Super 17 Saga is a moron.

That's like judging DBZ by the Garlic Junior Saga.
No one judges Dragon Ball GT for a single scene, or even arc. It's the entirety of it.
Bussani wrote:
Not only that, but whether something is canon or not, none of it is real. It's made by a Japanese guy.
Canonicity has nothing to do with "real". It's about continuity. Obviously this is fiction, and we're talking about fictional continuity, but that's certainly not meaningless. If it were, writing would be incredibly easy and stories would make no sense.
I disagree, canonicity is not related to continuity.

If Toriyama writes a side-story that has no connection with the plot of the main series, but that still happen in the same universe, it would be canon.

For example, if in that hypothetical side-story (created by Toriyama) there is another character that can use the Kaio-ken and he says that the possible limit for the Kaio-ken without risk is 10x, everybody would take it as valid for the original manga too. However, if in Dragon Ball GT that was said, it would not mean that it is like that in the main series, because GT is not made by Toriyama.

I think the best way to explain GT canonicity is by comparing it to a fan-fic. You can't say that a fan-fic is "fake", it was written afterall. But still it's not "real" for the main series. And the same happen to GT. It's a fan-fic with high budget and that was animated. It is not literally called "fan-fic" because Toei owns the copyright for Dragon Ball. However from an look over the series plot, copyright or money have no influence.

Hey, if Bill Gates suddenly solves to buy Toei and make Dragon Ball Multiverse an animated series, would Bill's money influence change the canonicity of it? I don't think so. Even if it's unlikely, it's possible for someone with money do that.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by TonyTheTiger » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:12 pm

When things get so big that there are many hands involved in the production, it's not always so easy to say "only the initial creator gets to create canon." If that were the case then the Superman canon would have ended back in the Golden Age and all we've been getting ever since is glorified fan fiction.

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:43 pm

TonyTheTiger wrote:When things get so big that there are many hands involved in the production, it's not always so easy to say "only the initial creator gets to create canon." If that were the case then the Superman canon would have ended back in the Golden Age and all we've been getting ever since is glorified fan fiction.
I'm really glad you brought comic books into the mix. I view GT and the Movies as the Earth 2 of the Dragonball Universe. If it doesn't make sense to the main timeline then we can just say it's apart of a different universe. What makes things even better is that Toriyama threw in the whole idea of Time Travel and with it, split timelines. This allows me to look at GT and the movies without blowing a Hulk induced nerd rage at Toei Animation. My friend on the other hand, well he's watching GT for the first time and lets just say his brain hurts.



Also, I wouldn't hesitate to call some of the stuff DC and Marvel does fan fiction. I mean, isn't Geoff Johns re-telling Superman's origin story? Not to mention, while most of the time it's pretty consistent, the X-men alter the past in so many ways just so there plot can work.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:53 am

AnimeMaakuo wrote:You can't change anything about the anime. You're a viewer, and you can like it or not. What is, is what is. I really don't think labeling something gets you anywhere, I'll go and admit to that. I think getting way too far into detailing about what's real and what's not, truly numbs the experience, and doesn't get anybody anywhere.
Again you are mixing real with cannon . They are both two different things, cannon is merely subjective and in my case(as with others on this site) I chose to not accept GT as cannon. I can personally accept this through the idea of split timelines; something introduced by Toriyama himself. I'm not claiming my idea as fact or real but rather my own personal perception of the show. You can still accept GT into your own take on the series if you chose, I however cannot. My reasoning behind my choice has been explained in my previous posts(as well as the posts of others).


I'm probably the only one in this boat but I'd sooner pick Neko Majin Z as the continuation of Dragonball over GT but again,this all boils down to personal taste.
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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Gokufan » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:23 pm

There was a time, when I hated GT. However, I watched all DB series lately, and I started to like it... I really hate the Buu saga in Z, Buu was nothing compared to villains like Freeza, or Cell. It was a overpowered pink childish monster... And I think that Z had a bad ending. I just LOVE the Dark Dragons Saga in GT. It's a perfect ending for Dragon Ball. The Dragon Balls were overused, the Z Fighters could do anything thanks to them. But they overused them and it turned against them. Every Dark Dragon had a origin in one of the wishes, so we could see the flashbacks in the anime, I think it was pretty cool.

(Sorry if my English is bad...)

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Re: Anime Vs Manga: What's up with the Dragon Ball GT hate?

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:48 pm

Gokufan wrote:I just LOVE the Dark Dragons Saga in GT. It's a perfect ending for Dragon Ball. The Dragon Balls were overused, the Z Fighters could do anything thanks to them. But they overused them and it turned against them. Every Dark Dragon had a origin in one of the wishes, so we could see the flashbacks in the anime, I think it was pretty cool.
The concept is good, and was hinted in the Majin Buu saga, but the overall saga is bad. Most of the episodes consist of generic fights with non-sense power scaling. The dragons are also bad drawn, and uninteresting. Not to mention Syn Senron is too much similar to Dabura. Besides, the fight with Syn Senron didn't make much sense, Goku fights equally as SSJ4 or as a kid, and Genki Dama c'mon?

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