Bardock dub analysis

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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Eire » Tue May 17, 2011 5:29 pm

About Nappa and Vegeta Scene:
Kings and generals asked about their plans used to answer with proverb:
If my shirt would know I'd burn that.
That's nothing strange that Kid Vegeta isn't aware of his father's plans. He wouldn't help, so as long as it's possible he should be kept away from this for his own sake. And I wouldn't share any plans with his tutor(?) who seems to be afraid of this child and later is seen talking back to Frieza. No, thanks.

In dub version everyone lost his mind and little kid is talking about such an issue loudly and don't give a damn what, where and to whom he talks. Level of conspiracy that puts Allo, Allo into scheme.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Herms » Wed May 18, 2011 12:05 pm

[10. Bardock heals]
Japanese

Doctor A: Burdock is as surprising as ever. It’s only taken him several days to fully recover.
Doctor B: Yeah. He may be a lower class warrior, but every time he goes off to clear some land, he always manages to nearly get killed before returning.
A: By now, his battle power should be pretty close to 10,000.
B: He’s quite a guy.
*Toma enters*
Toma: How is he?
B: Physically there’s nothing wrong. He’s in perfect shape. However, the computer is picking up a fluctuation in his brain waves.
Toma: I see.
Pumpkin: Oh well, this time we’ll have to leave Burdock behind.
Toma: Yeah.
A: Which planet are you off to this time?
Toma: Planet Meat.

English

Melakka: If he keeps this up, he going to be become stronger than King Vegeta!
Planthor: No kidding! Bardock, he comes back from every mission half dead! My gosh!
Melakka: He’s crazy! What kind of low-level soldier would go to a planet like Kanassa with only a handful of men?
Planthor: I think he needs to be retested, his case is unusual!
Melakka: I agree, Planthor!
Torah: How is he, Melakka?
Melakka: Let’s see here…yes, physically, sure…he’s ready! Mentally, I’m not so sure! There’s a slight change in his brainwave patterns!
Torah: Brainwaves!
Shugesh: That doesn’t sound too good, Torah! We’d better handle this one on our own!
Torah: Right! We should be okay on Meet! *to Bardock* Well, goodbye, old friend!
Dub fluctuations

This is another scene where the dub isn’t too far off. In fact, one thing that sticks out to me is how similar Doctor B/Melakka’s explanation of Bardock’s condition is in both versions. The dub perfectly describes how he’s physically in good shape but has fluctuation in his brain waves. jjgp1112 says that the reason the dub of the special is so inaccurate is because Funimation didn’t have access to the Japanese version while they were making it and just had to make stuff up on their own. This is something I’ve heard rumors about before, but as others have said, it seems rather questionable. At any rate, whatever the circumstances were, they were still able to get a fairly complicated line like this one right, so what stopped them from doing the same the rest of the time?

Best friends forever

In the dub, Torah calls Bardock “old friend” before he leaves, something he does again later. Probably this is another instance of the dub writers trying to build up the relationship between Bardock and his group, since it won’t be long now before their deaths. I think it’s a little heavy-handed, but at least it’s better than the big speech Bardock gives after they die. From what we see of the Saiyans in the original version of the special and the main series, I think it feels off for them to call one another “friend” like this. I don’t doubt that they had friendships, since in both versions we see that Bardock cared deeply for his comrades. But they don’t seem like the sorts who would be as open about it as this.

Bardock versus King Vegeta

Interestingly, in Japanese to convey Bardock strength they say that his battle power is almost 10,000, while in English they instead say he’ll soon be stronger than King Vegeta. “10,000” is used as the battle power of a couple different anime-only characters. Besides Bardock, it’s also the BP of baby Broli, Gohan in DBZ movie 3, and the three Namekian warriors who attack Freeza as he approaches the Great Elder’s house. The reason for this constant use is probably because 10,000 is a big round number, especially in Japanese. There, 10,000 (man in Japanese) is used as the unit for higher numbers, rather than 1,000 like in English. So a million in Japanese is 100 man (100 x 10,000), and this continues until you reach 100 million (oku), 10,000 times 10,000, and from there that becomes the new unit until you reach a trillion short-scale (10,000 x 10,000 x 10,000). Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

Meanwhile, the dub comparing Bardock to King Vegeta seems like an expression of the theme of “low class” guys like Bardock surpassing the elites, something that’s emphasized a lot stronger in the dub. The Japanese version does the same basic thing here for instance, since at 10,000 Bardock would be a lot stronger than Nappa by anyone’s reckoning, and Nappa is supposed to be Saiyan nobility and an elite. However, working that out requires knowledge of the main series, while the dub just flat-out says Bardock is almost as strong as the guy who sits at the pinnacle of Saiyan society. Incidentally, there’s not much information on exactly how strong King Vegeta was. In the Freeza arc Prince Vegeta says he had surpassed his father while he was still a kid, but we don’t know exactly when that is. At any rate, Vegeta had a battle power of 18,000 when he went to Earth, so King Vegeta should be lower than that. So going by that I guess “close to 10,000” and “at this rate he’ll soon surpass King Vegeta” are pretty equivalent statements. It should also be noted that in the Japanese version of the special King Vegeta is never mentioned at all, in this or any other scene.

Stuff and whatnot

Like I was saying before when discussing whether Bardock is really the leader of his group, the way they all just decide to go on without him doesn’t make it seem much he is. I know that groups under circumstances like this probably would have to just go on without their leader, but the casual way Bardock’s group just goes “well, guess we gotta leave him behind” doesn’t make it seem like there’s any real chain of command at work here.

Anyway, besides all that, we get more hype for Kanassa here, with “Melakka” thinking Bardock must be crazy to attack a “planet like Kanassa” with so few men.

[11. Bardock and Goku]
Japanese

*Goku cries, and Burdock reacts*
Doctor B: Is he regaining consciousness?
Tooro: I just struck you using a technique giving you knowledge of the future through visions! You will see the future fate of your own people. I will warn you now, that you have no future, save that which is cursed! As it is with my own people, there will be nothing but destruction for yours! I condemn you to see your own future, and agonize over the form it takes!

……………………………………………

English

*Goku cries, Bardock reacts*
Melakka: Hmmm? Whoa!
Bardock: A planet being destroyed! Was it Vegeta? No! It couldn’t be! But wait, the baby, my son…he sees it, too! It’s him…being sent out! So lonely! Torah! I don’t understand! What does my young son have to do with you? Why am I seeing these things? It doesn’t make any sense! My son, he’s become a warrior…but he’s different from us! What happened? What’s wrong with him? Why am I seeing this! No…no!!
Melakka: Planthor! Get him out of there! Something serious is going on!
Planthor: Open the hatch, Melakka!
Tooro Tooro Tooro

This is the first of several visions which Bardock will have for the rest of the special. In Japanese they are almost all accompanied by a repeat of Tooro’s speech to Bardock, as we see here. In the dub they do this to later on (though their version of Tooro’s speech is very different), but here for some strange reason they instead have Bardock reacting to what he sees. At first I was thinking this was because Tooro’s speech gets repeated so many times in the Japanese version and they just didn’t want to wear it out so much, but later on they actually insert a repeat of his speech into a scene where it actually wasn’t before, so they end up using it the same number of times anyway. Weird.

Cry cry again

The other strange thing is how in the dub Bardock thinks that Goku is crying because he is seeing the same vision. Originally Goku is just crying because, well, he’s a newborn baby. They tend to do such things. It’s not clear how or why Goku could be seeing this psychic vision, since it’s not like he was on Kanassa or anything. Goku does display random mind-reading powers throughout the main series, but he never sees the future. It’s also not explained how Bardock would even know what his son is seeing. Is this supposed to be an example of the mind-reading powers the dub gives him, or is he just guessing what Goku is seeing? If he’s guessing then it’s a pretty weird guess. This part of the dub probably makes more sense if we assume Bardock is just unfamiliar with babies and doesn’t realize they cry all the time. There’s a gag like that in Dr. Slump when Senbei wonders why his newborn son Turbo keeps crying and the midwife has to explain that this is simply the way babies are. I doubt that’s what they were going for though.

Stuff and whatnot

In the dub the doctors let Bardock out of the healing machine at this point because they can tell something is wrong with him, but originally it just seems that he happens to be done healing at that point, and the doctors are surprised when Bardock tells them he was having strange dreams.

And yet, the thing that bugs me most about the dub of this scene is how Bardock goes “so lonely!” while a vision of Goku with Grandpa Gohan is up on the screen.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:45 pm

Are you continuing your analysis? It's been a few weeks since the last update...
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:09 pm

Yeah man, I've been enjoying this. Besides, if you handle this, doing the quality job you've been doing, that means one Dragon Ball Z movie for me to review.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Herms » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:41 am

Sorry, I've been side-tracked by various things and had to put this on the back-burner. But I should be able to get started on it again this weekend, hopefully.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:11 am

It's cool, just wanted to let you know that someone was still interested.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by DBZ Mick » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:00 pm

Having just bought the movie again, I watched it in Japanese and was reminded of how much I loved the film. Then for some reason I watched the English version... it was beyond terrible... I hated all the character changes, the aforementioned wierd changing of things like implying Goku is having psychic visions too, and the voices. The whole thing seemed like a bad fan dub.

Thanks for posting, Herms, you've picked up on some interesting things which are cool to read about.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by xXInfinite026Xx » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:47 pm

Herms wrote:
Show and tell

Here’s a reversal of the usual formula: in Japanese, when Bardock collapses we hear the other Saiyans calling to him in concern, but in English this part is silent. It’s a shame, because I think the dub writers were trying to develop the crew and their relationship with Bardock beyond what was done in the original, such as by adding more dialogue with the crew like we saw before, but this brief bit where they all repeatedly call out to Bardock in concern does a lot more to demonstrate that relationship than anything the dub throws in, in my opinion at least.
Interesting tidbit, but on the dub track of the double feature re-release, you can hear the crew calling out to him. It caught me off guard initially since, as you stated, there was nothing but silence in the first release. I believe that these lines were just recovered files for the new mix rather than re-recordings. This happened on several occasions in the orange bricks, where recovered lines were inserted in the mix that weren't originally there; usually obvious that they weren't re-recorded based off of the performance.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by KiddoCabbusses » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:03 am

xXInfinite026Xx wrote: Interesting tidbit, but on the dub track of the double feature re-release, you can hear the crew calling out to him. It caught me off guard initially since, as you stated, there was nothing but silence in the first release. I believe that these lines were just recovered files for the new mix rather than re-recordings. This happened on several occasions in the orange bricks, where recovered lines were inserted in the mix that weren't originally there; usually obvious that they weren't re-recorded based off of the performance.
An interesting note. Why does FUNi do these sorts of things? I think it'd be interesting to collect a list of examples.
Was the original perhaps an audio error? Or perhaps they decided to bring back that snippet of audio because the JP BGM is silent in that scene (since the Double Features have dub w/JP BGM as an option), although perhaps I should watch the dub myself before judging that.

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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Nazi Cola » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:27 pm

Just a tiny tidbit I noticed.

The day Freeza busts Planet Vegeta, Fasha mentions Bardock being born "yesterday" in the English dub. In the English dub of Movie 8, Paragus notes that Broly was born the same day as Goku, which he then goes on to say was coincidentally the day Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta. Then, according to the Daizenshuu's timeline, Goku was born the same year Planet Vegeta blew up (right?). So it seems there are three different times for Goku to have been born, although the Bardock special could plausibly fit with the Daizenshuu's timeline, even if it is the English dub (the Japanese dub doesn't say when exactly Goku was born IIRC).

Just my two cents, mates.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Eire » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:35 pm

The same year can be used as equivalent of the same year. Also it wasn't told how long our LSSJ was lying on the trash pile.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:28 pm

Nazi Cola wrote:The day Freeza busts Planet Vegeta, Selypa mentions Bardock being born "yesterday" in the English dub.
Sorry, I just found this worth a chuckle, seeing as she would have been talking to him.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Nazi Cola » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:32 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Nazi Cola wrote:The day Freeza busts Planet Vegeta, Selypa mentions Bardock being born "yesterday" in the English dub.
Sorry, I just found this worth a chuckle, seeing as she would have been talking to him.
My bad, lol.
Eire wrote:The same year can be used as equivalent of the same year. Also it wasn't told how long our LSSJ was lying on the trash pile.
Well, that's why I was speaking of the English dub where Paragus actually gives the exact time.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by Leviathus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:22 am

Herms wrote: jjgp1112 says that the reason the dub of the special is so inaccurate is because Funimation didn’t have access to the Japanese version while they were making it and just had to make stuff up on their own. This is something I’ve heard rumors about before, but as others have said, it seems rather questionable.
Well actually, I remember an interview a former staff member of Daizex had with Sonny Strait. Sonny said they only had the Spanish version... well, at the time they were getting trough the characters. I don't know if they had the original version when they wrote the dub lines.
With Bardock, I asked John if beforehand could we just sit down and talk about this, and analyze the character, rather than just jumping into it, and he said "Well, if you want to. Sounds like a good idea." So we spent a couple of days just sitting down and watching it. I'd asked for the original Japanese version, but at the time all we had was the Spanish version, and we watched that, which still had the original Japanese music in it, which I thought was really cool.
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Re: Bardock dub analysis

Post by ThunderPX » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:14 am

KiddoCabbusses wrote:
xXInfinite026Xx wrote: Interesting tidbit, but on the dub track of the double feature re-release, you can hear the crew calling out to him. It caught me off guard initially since, as you stated, there was nothing but silence in the first release. I believe that these lines were just recovered files for the new mix rather than re-recordings. This happened on several occasions in the orange bricks, where recovered lines were inserted in the mix that weren't originally there; usually obvious that they weren't re-recorded based off of the performance.
An interesting note. Why does FUNi do these sorts of things? I think it'd be interesting to collect a list of examples.
Was the original perhaps an audio error? Or perhaps they decided to bring back that snippet of audio because the JP BGM is silent in that scene (since the Double Features have dub w/JP BGM as an option), although perhaps I should watch the dub myself before judging that.
My theory (and I have no source for this) is that all these lines were originally excised (going by how most of the ones I encountered are really stupid), but for the orange bricks/double features they weren't paying attention and just slapped on whatever audio track they could find, which still had the cut lines on it for some reason.

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