Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Olivier Hague
I Live Here
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:09 pm

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Olivier Hague » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:43 am

JulieYBM wrote:Are these same people going to watch the shows in Japanese? It certainly doesn't look like it, when you consider the claims that damn near "all anime fans prefer dubs." If someone is willing to watch a show subtitled, that means they're open to learning new things.
Just because you watch a show or a movie or anything subtitled, that doesn't mean you have some notions of whatever language the thing is in, nor does it mean you want to learn either.
'Haki' is the One Piece 'Ki' or 'Chakra'. Oda knows how to use an English dictionary. If he wanted to call it something English, he would have.
And how do you know he intended it to be a Japanese word specifically? In the context of his fictional world, I mean?
"Akuma no Mi": he could have called them something English in the original version, too. Does the fact he didn't imply it shouldn't be translated? Same thing for "Yonkô", "Shichibukai", "Kairôseki", etc.

User avatar
Daimao
Mr. Subtitles
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:20 pm

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Daimao » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:13 am

Adamant wrote:Some 30-40% of fansub groups out there keep Japanese honorifics out of their releases, and while the issue of honorifics was mostly ignored, neither fans nor translator (Mandelin) wanted the word "haki" untranslated in the Funimation One Piece subs, and there was a lot of loud protesting when Toei insisted it be kept as "haki" in the online streams.
I remember when he was wrestling with what to do about that. He asked me for suggestions, and I said "How about using 'gimp'?"

To this day, I don't think he's asked me for any more advice :lol: . True story.

User avatar
Kingdom Heartless
I Live Here
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:21 am
Location: QLD, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:30 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Daimao wrote:That, and back then (perhaps even now), anyone who chooses to intentionally watch the Japanese track over the English one is presumed to be able to handle a more Japanesey flavor to the translation.
Yeah, that's always been what I've thought too. I don't switch on the subs to have a script that pretty much reads like an English dub's. This was espicially painful for Sengoku Basara. >_<
Exactly the way I feel. The first time I ever clicked on the Japanese version, I was amazed that I was basically watching a completely different show. It's basically what got me familiar with honorifics in the first place, now subtitles seem really awkward to me if they don't include them.
Yo! Cal's the name. Nice to meet you!
Lover of all that is pure and fun in the worlds of Dragon Ball, Jim Henson and so forth!
3DS Friend Code 1418-7854-8786. I'm always playing Pokemon, so PM me yours for Friend Safari and battling! :D

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:05 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Are these same people going to watch the shows in Japanese? It certainly doesn't look like it, when you consider the claims that damn near "all anime fans prefer dubs."
It depends. Some shows have bad dubs. Some shows are sub-only. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that nearly all Anime fans prefer dubs, but it's apparent that the majority do.
JulieYBM wrote: If someone is willing to watch a show subtitled, that means they're open to learning new things.
No. People watch foreign shows for the same reason they watch shows in their native language: entertainment. They shouldn't have to learn anything and they shouldn't have to be taught anything. See Oliver Hague's response.
JulieYBM wrote: Having subtitles that completely ignore honorifics or attempt a translation go nowhere.
Firstly, no one is saying that a translator should completely ignore honorifics. They have a fairly important part in Anime, but as others have already pointed out, they're not always absolutely integral. Secondly, could you please cite an example of an attempted translation of honorifics "going nowhere". Some feel that at least trying to translate them is preferable to just leaving them in.
JulieYBM wrote: What's more, 'nakama' has a clearly defined meaning and isn't treated as a title.
Oh, so you're saying if a word doesn't have a clearly defined meaning it shouldn't be translated? The viewer is hearing the word "nakama", so why not chuck it in?
JulieYBM wrote: '-san' and 'sensei' (both words already known in the English lexicon, so why not let the rest of them join? Education is fun)
Yes, they're in the English lexicon, but that doesn't mean that everyone personally knows them.

User avatar
AgitoZ
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by AgitoZ » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:13 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:Oh, so you're saying if a word doesn't have a clearly defined meaning it shouldn't be translated? The viewer is hearing the word "nakama", so why not chuck it in?
Well then by that logic why not leave everything in? I mean I'm hearing aren't I?

"Nakama" shouldn't have to be debated if it should be translated or not, it has a clear translation. No matter what KF tells you...

I don't think the problem is that the honorifics are left in, is that the majority of the time the alternative has been to just completely ignore them. So if they were able to adapt them faithfully there wouldn't be any problems.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

User avatar
Adamant
I Live Here
Posts: 2951
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:02 pm
Location: Viking Land
Contact:

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Adamant » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:22 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:
JulieYBM wrote: Are these same people going to watch the shows in Japanese? It certainly doesn't look like it, when you consider the claims that damn near "all anime fans prefer dubs."
It depends. Some shows have bad dubs. Some shows are sub-only. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that nearly all Anime fans prefer dubs, but it's apparent that the majority do.
"Majority"? Depends on where they live.

(also, "anime fan" is a terrible term, but let's not get into that)
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:52 am

Adamant wrote: "Majority"? Depends on where they live.
I was speaking broadly. I'm not saying it's a vast majority though.

User avatar
Eire
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: The Promised Land
Contact:

Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

Post by Eire » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:32 am

Well, here for most of anime and nearly all movies there are subs and speaker to choose from. Dubs are very rare, since they are the most expensive. Choosing subs have nothing to do with "educational" factor, but to avoid one monotony voice translating 1/3 of the dialogues just to catch the basic sense.

Most of people here consider that anime is translated for fans who are already familiar with honorifics and other cultural nuances, while the truth is the target are usually people who have nothing or very little in common with that. There are some traditions that must be respected, at last there must be audience predicted. (Comedy for cinemas should be fun, so leave faithfully for the sake of the mood. But when you translate obscure Ebichu you can predict that it will be picked by people interested in Japanese, ready to have some inconveniences) That's why we still have human translators instead of computer ones. In fact it's hardly to discuss about faithfully of the translations at all, because translator works like doctor- they have some rules and guides, but every case is different and need personal treatment. Too bad that there's usually no time/money/possibilities to do the job perfectly.
Per aspera ad astra, man!

Women belong in the kitchen.
Men belong in the kitchen.
Everyone belongs in the kitchen, the kitchen has food

Post Reply