goku83 wrote:@ajay if it is destructive show evidence please, just saying that you know is nothing else than arrogant , i like the grain i don't use dnvr but i am an encoder i made comparison when i was trying to do it and i am not the only one doing it. Some did it far better than me, professional like Funi or Toei don't care to do it correctly that's why people are so angry about dnr.
You never question yourself about what uou think so you just talk like if you are allways right and others not , maybe you are right but show it i never see you proove by screenshots, evidence of what you talk about it's like the international vs japanese sharpening things, haloing is in the international version if you sharpen the same footage you have more haloing it's just logical
If you search back through my history, you'll find plenty of examples of me advocating against the use noise reduction as a whole. That stance has evolved over the years. Please don't make wild assumptions. I'm always learning and open to new information, but that's entirely irrelevant to this discussion. What I'm talking about here is not about arrogance, but rather how these processes work at their core.
Grain is part of the image, if you filter that away, you are inevitably losing something. DVNR is simply a complex blurring algorithm - it averages out groups of pixels, tries to detect edges, maintain contrast, and all the stuff necessary to rid the image of noise/grain while maintaining the detail as best as possible.
That doesn't mean it's always perceptible - that depends on how well you've applied it - but at its core, it's a destructive process. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that a destructive process is always a bad thing - again, that depends on how well you do it / how good your filters are - but you're taking something away from a flat image; it's not magic.
The same applies to sharpening. When you sharpen something, you're not magically adding detail to the image; sharpening works by darkening the darker pixels and brightening the brighter pixels - this makes edges appear more defined. Again, you're playing around with algorithms that are altering the make up of the image in a destructive way. As I said with DNVR, that's not inherently a bad thing, but it absolutely can be if not done right.
The issue I had with what you posted in the Kai thread is this: you stated that the Japanese version was more detailed and that because there's a halo in the international version, that made the excessive sharpening applied somehow okay. I disagreed with that because I felt it was based on a misunderstanding. As I said, the 'haloing' you're seeing in the international cut is the natural shadow from the cel against against the paper or the line art against the paint. In the Japanese version, the excessive sharpening has turned a subtle shadow into a bright, distracting halo.
To demonstrate my point since you want screenshots, here's an example.
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So this is our base image. You can see some flaws in it already - for example, there's fringing going on where the dark colours are meeting the light. This could be the result of two factors; chromatic aberation during the initial photography stage, or just a poor film scan on Toei's part. Either way, I'm sure we can agree it's an issue.
If we take this image now and sharpen it up to match what you see on the Japanese release, you'll see a problem arise:
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Not only has the colour fringing become clearer, but now there's a halo where the line art meets the background. Again, this is how sharpening works; you're creating contrast at edges, regardless of whether it exists or not. There are certainly better and more complex ways to sharpen an image that reduce artifacts like this, but the principle is the same. Toei did a spectacularly bad job of this for their home release, sadly.
Hopefully this gif demonstrates the process. The lines get darker, the edge around it gets lighter.
I see you deleted your post while I was writing this, but I'm gonna leave it up anyway and hope it's at least helpful to people reading the thread.
Kojiro Sasaki wrote:Ajay wrote:I'm not sure nitpicking is really necessary.
Nitpicking:
looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily.
I think that what I did is far from nitpicking. I just posted an example, which shows very visible differences. I find this missing line important. I don't see anything wrong in discussing this.
We can always call everything extensive DVNR removes unimportant and consider this debate unnecessary.
To be clear, I'm not calling the issue you pointed out unnecessary, but rather you picking at my post. Calling my evaluation of Kai into question, despite that being the furthest thing from the point of my post, is unnecessary. That wasn't what we were discussing.
It's absolutely fine to discuss flaws in the remaster, but not when it's not the focal point. It comes across very poorly on your part. It's a bit like me going, "Man, Power Rangers is a great show, but them taking footage Sentai has caused some debate", and you chiming in with, "Actually, I don't think Power Rangers is great!".
Which, okay, that's fine and I appreciate you having a different opinion from me, but... that's not what's being discussed here and feels like an unnecessary challenge. But hey, that's just me. I'm not speaking in any official capacity here - just didn't really appreciate my post being ignored for the sake of picking at something you disagreed with.
Replace Kai with a DVNR'd product that you think was done well and let's get back on topic!
If you don't like any product that's been filtered, then okay, let's talk about the application of it itself. All good stuff. All things relevant to the point I was making.
By the way, I myself think that Kai remaster was not that bad. Especially after seeing FUNimation's magic.
