Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

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lansing
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:32 am

HakkaiBills93 wrote: just wait! if i correctly understand you use vapoursynth and can alter the lut to build it? if it's the case yes it's very interesting , i allways think the lut should have been done in one time so the only way should be to get already good looking episode source to match but if you can create it , it's differrent . if your test don't work try to remove the color cast before creating your lut , for what i know the only noticeable change on each episode is the color cast but with it remove it remain the same alterations with sometimes slight differrence (red, and cyan are the most noticeable ones)
LUT was created by the color matching program, by passing in a reference and target image. Vapoursynth was used for trimming and mass applying filters, such as mass applying a folder of LUTs to every scenes of the video, you can't do that with regular NLE. This was make possible upon the fact that we have a full series of reference in Season set so that we can create a LUT for every scene.

However this is not possible if you're to match it to scanned cels, simply because there ain't many of them and there're scattered around. You don't even have a 1 to 1 scan to match with a frame. So the ideal way is just to sample the color of the target and the cel scan into color palette images and match those, and it was prove to work in my post above. I'm surprised that there's actually someone in this world who collected a lot of them physically as seem in MrWalnut4's package, as many of them seemingly coming from the same scanner.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:47 am

Bruma rabu wrote:I don't think kai 1.0 color pallet works to well with dboxes. I've been trying and using different shoots and it just produces a nasty picture overall. A few work but not for a whole part of an episode. I shouldn't be to surprised though, it's a low bit rate and not well encoded release. I'll try only last thing and if doesn't work I might give up on color correction and just do color cast removal. This might have been too complex for a noobie like my self haha.
If the problem is that the color isn't matching, that's probably because of that stupid kai color palette + redraws. For example, in the original, you may have two characters with different skin color, but on those redraws, they could have painted both skin with the same color, so you ended up with one character matching while the other one look so wrong.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:52 am

lansing wrote:
HakkaiBills93 wrote: just wait! if i correctly understand you use vapoursynth and can alter the lut to build it? if it's the case yes it's very interesting , i allways think the lut should have been done in one time so the only way should be to get already good looking episode source to match but if you can create it , it's differrent . if your test don't work try to remove the color cast before creating your lut , for what i know the only noticeable change on each episode is the color cast but with it remove it remain the same alterations with sometimes slight differrence (red, and cyan are the most noticeable ones)
LUT was created by the color matching program, by passing in a reference and target image. Vapoursynth was used for trimming and mass applying filters, such as mass applying a folder of LUTs to every scenes of the video, you can't do that with regular NLE. This was make possible upon the fact that we have a full series of reference in Season set so that we can create a LUT for every scene.

However this is not possible if you're to match it to scanned cels, simply because there ain't many of them and there're scattered around. You don't even have a 1 to 1 scan to match with a frame. So the ideal way is just to sample the color of the target and the cel scan into color palette images and match those, and it was prove to work in my post above. I'm surprised that there's actually someone in this world who collected a lot of them physically as seem in MrWalnut4's package, as many of them seemingly coming from the same scanner.
ok i am interested to try this things but i don't know anything in vaporsynth, i am more used with avisynth but there is no way from what i know to import .cube files from the match tools but it seems you can do it in vapoursynth and the software you display

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by SuperCyan2 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:21 pm

lansing wrote:Ok since there's someone who actually collected a tons of cel scans :shock: (well I still have doubt if the scanner was calibrated), here is a prove of concept that matched a kai image to a cel by mapping one color palette to another using Dr Dre's tool.

A cel image from the package:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Episode 142 from Kai:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compa ... n/WG7NNN8X

I created a color palette for Trunks and Goten for both images, a total of 16 color each. And then matched it with Dr Dre's program, the resulting LUT was then applied to the Kai image. I didn't match the sky because they are not the same sky.
This looks amazing! If Toei went back to Kai 2.0, reworked on the colors and placing Kikuchi's Boo arc score (or the synthesized one) it would be a really impressive release all in all.

I like seeing the comments on this thread but seems unnecessary that fans take out their own time to do a proper version of the show when Toei should be the ones handling it.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Bruma rabu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:37 pm

lansing wrote:If the problem is that the color isn't matching, that's probably because of that stupid kai color palette + redraws. For example, in the original, you may have two characters with different skin color, but on those redraws, they could have painted both skin with the same color, so you ended up with one character matching while the other one look so wrong.
I think the problem is more that the DBox footage is uneven through out. Color cast varies from scene to scene and some scenes are brighter than others. Right now I'm going through my cut and trying to get everything iron out. After that I'm going to try it again and see how it goes.
Bulma is awesome... but chi-chi is best waifu :wink:

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Bruma rabu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:44 pm

SuperCyan2 wrote:I like seeing the comments on this thread but seems unnecessary that fans take out their own time to do a proper version of the show when Toei should be the ones handling it.
Lol so true, I'll admit though doing stuff like this is kinda fun.
Bulma is awesome... but chi-chi is best waifu :wink:

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:24 pm

Here's the half finished LUT for episode 142 of the japanese version kai. From the look of it, one LUT seem to fit the whole episode. References I'm still missing are:
- Gohan, need a scan with him in the open field
- Piccolo, because the green on those two big cels in the package are too bright
- the sky, it has like a gradient of 3 or 4 blue, I only saw 2 in the cel, so in the beginning of the episode, some part of the sky doesn't change
- a shadow color of Goten's robe in one scene
- shadow of Trunks' face in one scene.

LUT

Overall this looks even better than color matching kai to season set, because I don't need to spend hours and hours of work trimming the season set for each episode, which in turn cut down the needs for a lot of people, and with superior color.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Bruma rabu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:39 pm

lansing wrote:Here's the half finished LUT for episode 142 of the japanese version kai. From the look of it, one LUT seem to fit the whole episode. References I'm still missing are:
- Gohan, need a scan with him in the open field
- Piccolo, because the green on those two big cels in the package are too bright
- the sky, it has like a gradient of 3 or 4 blue, I only saw 2 in the cel, so in the beginning of the episode, some part of the sky doesn't change
- a shadow color of Goten's robe in one scene
- shadow of Trunks' face in one scene.

LUT

Overall this looks even better than color matching kai to season set, because I don't need to spend hours and hours of work trimming the season set for each episode, which in turn cut down the needs for a lot of people, and with superior color.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Damn looks good, how did you use cels to fit the episode?
Bulma is awesome... but chi-chi is best waifu :wink:

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:06 am

lansing wrote:Here's the half finished LUT for episode 142 of the japanese version kai. From the look of it, one LUT seem to fit the whole episode. References I'm still missing are:
- Gohan, need a scan with him in the open field
- Piccolo, because the green on those two big cels in the package are too bright
- the sky, it has like a gradient of 3 or 4 blue, I only saw 2 in the cel, so in the beginning of the episode, some part of the sky doesn't change
- a shadow color of Goten's robe in one scene
- shadow of Trunks' face in one scene.

LUT

Overall this looks even better than color matching kai to season set, because I don't need to spend hours and hours of work trimming the season set for each episode, which in turn cut down the needs for a lot of people, and with superior color.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
it's great, i feel that you should open your own topic to explain your own method , it seems very complicated to do
this way maybe others can help

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by MrWalnut4 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:38 am

HakkaiBills93 wrote:
lansing wrote:Here's the half finished LUT for episode 142 of the japanese version kai. From the look of it, one LUT seem to fit the whole episode. References I'm still missing are:
- Gohan, need a scan with him in the open field
- Piccolo, because the green on those two big cels in the package are too bright
- the sky, it has like a gradient of 3 or 4 blue, I only saw 2 in the cel, so in the beginning of the episode, some part of the sky doesn't change
- a shadow color of Goten's robe in one scene
- shadow of Trunks' face in one scene.

LUT

Overall this looks even better than color matching kai to season set, because I don't need to spend hours and hours of work trimming the season set for each episode, which in turn cut down the needs for a lot of people, and with superior color.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
It's great, i feel that you should open your own topic to explain your own method , it seems very complicated to do
this way maybe others can help
A new thread for color correcting Dragon Ball in general would be a good idea since this thread is six-years-old at this point. That and the OP is is out of date and not really relevant to the current discussion other than to introduce new users to color correcting Dragon Ball.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by ionutbigiu1 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:27 am

HakkaiBills93 wrote:
lansing wrote:Here's the half finished LUT for episode 142 of the japanese version kai. From the look of it, one LUT seem to fit the whole episode. References I'm still missing are:
- Gohan, need a scan with him in the open field
- Piccolo, because the green on those two big cels in the package are too bright
- the sky, it has like a gradient of 3 or 4 blue, I only saw 2 in the cel, so in the beginning of the episode, some part of the sky doesn't change
- a shadow color of Goten's robe in one scene
- shadow of Trunks' face in one scene.

LUT

Overall this looks even better than color matching kai to season set, because I don't need to spend hours and hours of work trimming the season set for each episode, which in turn cut down the needs for a lot of people, and with superior color.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
it's great, i feel that you should open your own topic to explain your own method , it seems very complicated to do
this way maybe others can help
Green tint has disappeared but look at piccolo's cape . Everything seems so reddish. Almost like watching Buu saga on Animax or BS Fuji.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:43 am

ionutbigiu1 wrote:
HakkaiBills93 wrote:
lansing wrote:Here's the half finished LUT for episode 142 of the japanese version kai. From the look of it, one LUT seem to fit the whole episode. References I'm still missing are:
- Gohan, need a scan with him in the open field
- Piccolo, because the green on those two big cels in the package are too bright
- the sky, it has like a gradient of 3 or 4 blue, I only saw 2 in the cel, so in the beginning of the episode, some part of the sky doesn't change
- a shadow color of Goten's robe in one scene
- shadow of Trunks' face in one scene.

LUT

Overall this looks even better than color matching kai to season set, because I don't need to spend hours and hours of work trimming the season set for each episode, which in turn cut down the needs for a lot of people, and with superior color.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
it's great, i feel that you should open your own topic to explain your own method , it seems very complicated to do
this way maybe others can help
Green tint has disappeared but look at piccolo's cape . Everything seems so reddish. Almost like watching Buu saga on Animax or BS Fuji.
it's kind logical as he "build" a color palette and say himself that it's not complete yet, and even if imperfect i am more curious for the technical aspect to build color match profile or can create a preset for that, i think that the only true reliable cels are the ones that are screenshot:
taking some colors here and there is not a good idea from my opinion as the colors are differrent to each part to another, having one shot for each part with all colors seems the best as this way it will alter the same way each color channel, luminosity etc

i found the color match tools more and more interesting but i think that for the color match tools for kai 2.0 you can more use steve franko color correction if really accurate ( i don't know what reference did he use)

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:55 pm

HakkaiBills93 wrote: it's great, i feel that you should open your own topic to explain your own method , it seems very complicated to do
this way maybe others can help
It's still too early. There're still too many repetition works in creating the color palette manually. Eventually we'll need to make an online library that generates the color palette for us.

The most needed help right now is probably to get more quality cel scans.
HakkaiBills93 wrote: i found the color match tools more and more interesting but i think that for the color match tools for kai 2.0 you can more use steve franko color correction if really accurate ( i don't know what reference did he use
Steve Franko's color correction (aka levels and season set) is accurate as to what was originally given to Funimation, probably the same as the Toei copy, only difference being the crushed black. But the color are still different from the cel.

season set vs cel match
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I don't even think those Toei cel thumbnails can be used along because their saturation, highs and low are different from the cel scans.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:57 pm

lansing wrote:Steve Franko's color correction (aka levels and season set) is accurate as to what was originally given to Funimation, probably the same as the Toei copy, only difference being the crushed black.
That straight-up makes no sense.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:13 pm

lansing wrote: It's still too early. There're still too many repetition works in creating the color palette manually. Eventually we'll need to make an online library that generates the color palette for us.The most needed help right now is probably to get more quality cel scans.
and you are the only one working right now as you seems to do such a complex task, it will be a huge task to get them as even when you find website where there is lot of cels, those often aren't well scanned or just a photo
lansing wrote: Steve Franko's color correction (aka levels and season set) is accurate as to what was originally given to Funimation, probably the same as the Toei copy, only difference being the crushed black. But the color are still different from the cel.
of course i won't say bad things about a professionnal colorist but as it is complex to color correct dragon ball he worked with references he got and i think that he recovered colors of the original printed stuffs, i read here one time that cel scan are differrent than what is print on film (i supposed it's the way it is printed)
and yes it's differrent for example bulma and how steve franko colored her
Image
Image
lansing wrote: season set vs cel match
Image
I don't even think those Toei cel thumbnails can be used along because their saturation, highs and low are different from the cel scans.[/quote]

Toei cels have differrent colors than the ones of season sets (like buu colors for example) i already tried to match colors and it often don't work properly i don't really think that those are true cels even if it could have been great
for example here a vod cel
Image
here a cel
Image
colors are way too much differrent

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by ionutbigiu1 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:25 pm

HakkaiBills93 wrote:
lansing wrote: It's still too early. There're still too many repetition works in creating the color palette manually. Eventually we'll need to make an online library that generates the color palette for us.The most needed help right now is probably to get more quality cel scans.
and you are the only one working right now as you seems to do such a complex task, it will be a huge task to get them as even when you find website where there is lot of cels, those often aren't well scanned or just a photo
lansing wrote: Steve Franko's color correction (aka levels and season set) is accurate as to what was originally given to Funimation, probably the same as the Toei copy, only difference being the crushed black. But the color are still different from the cel.
of course i won't say bad things about a professionnal colorist but as it is complex to color correct dragon ball he worked with references he got and i think that he recovered colors of the original printed stuffs, i read here one time that cel scan are differrent than what is print on film (i supposed it's the way it is printed)
and yes it's differrent for example bulma and how steve franko colored her
Image
Image
lansing wrote: season set vs cel match
Image
I don't even think those Toei cel thumbnails can be used along because their saturation, highs and low are different from the cel scans.
Toei cels have differrent colors than the ones of season sets (like buu colors for example) i already tried to match colors and it often don't work properly i don't really think that those are true cels even if it could have been great
for example here a vod cel
Image
here a cel
Image
colors are way too much differrent
Totally agreed, if anybody wants to make a decent color correction should use a lot of sources and resrouces , sticking to cel scans will be a little messed up .

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:42 pm

ionutbigiu1 wrote: Totally agreed, if anybody wants to make a decent color correction should use a lot of sources and resrouces , sticking to cel scans will be a little messed up .
i didn't say that it's not reliable to use scans but that they have to be chosen with great cautious
you need to gathers well calibrated cels scan but keep in mind that some aren't finished as it miss the final background and maybe can have been modified as the scan we see here aren't what have been shot on film
it's not impossible to get the right colors by the way he work it's a differrent approach and it's not because we don't understand totally the way he create his palette that it won't work, it's interesting and i want to see how it will goes.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by ionutbigiu1 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:43 pm

HakkaiBills93 wrote:
ionutbigiu1 wrote: Totally agreed, if anybody wants to make a decent color correction should use a lot of sources and resrouces , sticking to cel scans will be a little messed up .
you need to gathers well calibrated cels scan but keep in mind that some aren't finished as it miss the final background and maybe can have been modified as the scan we see here aren't what have been shot on film
it's not impossible to get the right colors by the way he work it's a differrent approach and it's not because we don't understand totally the way he create his palette that it won't work, it's interesting and i want to see how it will goes.
I know what you mean and sure thing, i am as excited to see what is going on and how it will unfold.

Just a different path i tried too .

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by ionutbigiu1 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:50 pm

ionutbigiu1 wrote:
HakkaiBills93 wrote:
ionutbigiu1 wrote: Totally agreed, if anybody wants to make a decent color correction should use a lot of sources and resrouces , sticking to cel scans will be a little messed up .
you need to gathers well calibrated cels scan but keep in mind that some aren't finished as it miss the final background and maybe can have been modified as the scan we see here aren't what have been shot on film
it's not impossible to get the right colors by the way he work it's a differrent approach and it's not because we don't understand totally the way he create his palette that it won't work, it's interesting and i want to see how it will goes.
I know what you mean and sure thing, i am as excited to see what is going on and how it will unfold.
i am just curious for myself , collect as much well calibrated cels and build presets that worked for the whole series is maybe impossible as no one know if there is as much cels available for that or if it's technically possible for all episodes,
even if it work with dbkai will it give good result with dragon box? (the lut have to be differrent for dragon box as it don't look the same)i really think that the hardest things for color correcting is have 100% matching references (you have to know where you go)

i have also see that steve franko didn't correct the flashback of dragon ball that you have in the episode where kamesennin talk about previous tenkaichi budokai right before the cell game (in the season sets there is strong yellowish tint ans that's not caused by the flashback but cause it was taken from another reel) so it confort me thinking that it wasn't made image by image but part by part
Last edited by HakkaiBills93 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:53 pm

ionutbigiu1 wrote:Image
That is FAR too bright. His skin is bleached out almost to pure white. And the sky is a bit too blue; should have a bit more green in it.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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