Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Son_Gohan » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:31 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Captain Awesome wrote:What an overwrought series of mealy mouthed mental gymnastics.

Your edits are blurry and over exposed. Let’s not pretend they satisfy anything other than your own convoluted rubric.
Let's not be nasty here.

I agree that the blurry, overexposed weirdness is a poor decision, and the logic behind it is rather nonsensical, but let's at least be nice about it...

Don't worry, you don't have to hold anything back. I'm not judging on an emotional basis, so I can articulate and defend my position just fine. I'd even argue it's more objectively-based than many of these other "color corrections" in this thread.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Ajay » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:39 am

Captain Awesome wrote:What an overwrought series of mealy mouthed mental gymnastics.

Your edits are blurry and over exposed. Let’s not pretend they satisfy anything other than your own convoluted rubric.
This is accurate.

This Instagram-tier nonsense would be laughed out of any professional's studio in seconds.

Son_Gohan, I seriously suggest you go away and do some genuine research into film and remastering processes before contributing to this thread again. Your pseudo-science babble has no place here.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Son_Gohan » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:38 am

Ajay wrote: This is accurate.

This Instagram-tier nonsense would be laughed out of any professional's studio in seconds.

Son_Gohan, I seriously suggest you go away and do some genuine research into film and remastering processes before contributing to this thread again. Your pseudo-science babble has no place here.

Thanks.
If a professional studio saw FUNI's Remastered Season Sets as good enough to be commercialized, after all their genuine research into film and remastering processes... I'll have to pass on that. That's not the direction I want to go for my visual experience.

Methods change with time, perhaps in the future it will move towards a more natural approach like I'm going for. But I can safely say that the direction the industry is moving towards now is not in the right direction, and will cause problems in the long run. Mark my words.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Scsigs » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:15 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:If a professional studio saw FUNI's Remastered Season Sets as good enough to be commercialized, after all their genuine research into film and remastering processes... I'll have to pass on that. That's not the direction I want to go for my visual experience.

Methods change with time, perhaps in the future it will move towards a more natural approach like I'm going for. But I can safely say that the direction the industry is moving towards now is not in the right direction, and will cause problems in the long run. Mark my words.
You call using some kind of blurring tool over what looks like decently remastered footage "natural"? It's not natural. I don't know what that shit looks like in motion, but your screenshots are WAY too blurry & unnatural based on the screenshots you've provided alone. FUNi's sets, while awful & badly done, are at the very least not blurry. In fact, it was a major criticism of the orange bricks that they tried too hard to get rid of things to make the images more focused, which resulted in their dirt-removal tech accidentally removing lines of animation because it thought that those were also dirt & grain, which I don't really know why FUNi feels the need to get rid of grain in the first place. I can only think it's because casuals think that grain is intrusive rather than useful, since it retains quality in older products shot on film rather than not. I mean, look at the Star Trek: TNG Blu-Rays. They retained a decent amount of grain, which lessens as the series goes on as the film stock gets newer, & the series benefits from it. Though, I digress.
Same with their Blu-Rays, which apply so much DVNR & brightening that the images make your eyes bleed & the picture looks so unnatural that it makes you wonder who's behind the QC department they have for their products. I mean, the DVDs do that too, but the Blu-ays are just as bad in different ways. They treat Z like shit, which is baffling since it put them on the map as a company, but at least their efforts are things that you get why they do them. I mean, I still like the Kai TFC Blu-Rays better, since it's a remaster I can actually watch even though it's not that good, but even Toei hasn't even bothered giving Z a proper remaster for HD, so we're out of luck until they do. You, on the other hand, made the picture more blurry & unnatural in a different way. I wouldn't put either yours or FUNi's remasters as the standard to reach.
I mean, give Enigmo credit. He's an ego-fueled prick, but at least he tries to match the best quality we've seen from the official releases of Kai & the Z level Blu-Rays to show how the rest of the series could've looked on Blu-Ray had those not been abandoned entirely. I can at least get the madness behind his methods. I hope mentioning him isn't too bad to do here.
Last edited by Scsigs on Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:45 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
Ajay wrote: This is accurate.

This Instagram-tier nonsense would be laughed out of any professional's studio in seconds.

Son_Gohan, I seriously suggest you go away and do some genuine research into film and remastering processes before contributing to this thread again. Your pseudo-science babble has no place here.

Thanks.
If a professional studio saw FUNI's Remastered Season Sets as good enough to be commercialized, after all their genuine research into film and remastering processes... I'll have to pass on that. That's not the direction I want to go for my visual experience.

Methods change with time, perhaps in the future it will move towards a more natural approach like I'm going for. But I can safely say that the direction the industry is moving towards now is not in the right direction, and will cause problems in the long run. Mark my words.
What about your approach, which involves blurring the image to insane degrees, is "natural," exactly? It's by far the most unnatural and over-processed stuff in this thread, and I can't even fathom how much of a mess it would be in motion, let alone the stills you've already posted.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Son_Gohan » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:59 pm

Scsigs wrote: You call using some kind of blurring tool over what looks like decently remastered footage "natural"? It's not natural. I don't know what that shit looks like in motion, but your screenshots are WAY too blurry & unnatural based on the screenshots you've provided alone. FUNi's sets, while awful & badly done, are at the very least not blurry. In fact, it was a major criticism of the orange bricks that they tried too hard to get rid of things to make the images more focused, which resulted in their dirt-removal tech accidentally removing lines of animation because it thought that those were also dirt & grain, which I don't really know why FUNi feels the need to get rid of grain in the first place. I can only think it's because casuals think that grain is intrusive rather than useful, since it retains quality in older products shot on film rather than not. I mean, look at the Star Trek: TNG Blu-Rays. They retained a decent amount of grain, which lessens as the series goes on as the film stock gets newer, & the series benefits from it. Though, I digress.
Same with their Blu-Rays, which apply so much DVNR & brightening that the images make your eyes bleed & the picture looks so unnatural that it makes you wonder who's behind the QC department they have for their products. I mean, the DVDs do that too, but the Blu-ays are just as bad in different ways. They treat Z like shit, which is baffling since it put them on the map as a company, but at least their efforts are things that you get why they do them. I mean, I still like the Kai TFC Blu-Rays better, since it's a remaster I can actually watch even though it's not that good, but even Toei hasn't even bothered giving Z a proper remaster for HD, so we're out of luck until they do. You, on the other hand, made the picture more blurry & unnatural in a different way. I wouldn't put either yours or FUNi's remasters as the standard to reach.
I mean, give Enigmo credit. He's an ego-fueled prick, but at least he tries to match the best quality we've seen from the official releases of Kai & the Z level Blu-Rays to show how the rest of the series could've looked on Blu-Ray had those not been abandoned entirely. I can at least get the madness behind his methods. I hope mentioning him isn't too bad to do here.
You mean a diffusion filter. Professional animation companies will use this technique as well. What do you think they use it for? It's not to make a picture more clear, quite the opposite.

The Dragon Box footage isn't very clear to begin with. Since so it's so stale, there's only so much you can do with an aged product without taking it out of balance. Grain can serve a similar effect in regards to masking imperfections and such but is too antiquated for modern video. Most people here would've grown up watching FUNI's products so they will be conditioned to the kind of methods that work to expose more detail and clarity; thinking that's right way of going about it. When you see something that does the opposite of that, it's a drastic shift and is very unsettling, but is not something your eyes wouldn't be able to adapt to.
jjgp1112 wrote: What about your approach, which involves blurring the image to insane degrees, is "natural," exactly? It's by far the most unnatural and over-processed stuff in this thread, and I can't even fathom how much of a mess it would be in motion, let alone the stills you've already posted.
By "natural" I'm referring to what is natural to the eyes, not what would be natural to the product itself. The picture you get from a camera/artificial device, with the insane degree of detail and clarity it produces, does not reflect natural vision. And is therefore not ideally something I'd want to stare at for too long.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:08 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote: What about your approach, which involves blurring the image to insane degrees, is "natural," exactly? It's by far the most unnatural and over-processed stuff in this thread, and I can't even fathom how much of a mess it would be in motion, let alone the stills you've already posted.
By "natural" I'm referring to what is natural to the eyes, not what would be natural to the product itself. The picture you get from a camera/artificial device, with the insane degree of detail and clarity it produces, does not reflect natural vision. And is therefore not ideally something I'd want to stare at for too long.
Uh...what? Can't speak for you, but I sure as hell know my eyesight sees things in picture perfect clarity
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Scsigs » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:48 am

Son_Gohan wrote:You mean a diffusion filter. Professional animation companies will use this technique as well. What do you think they use it for? It's not to make a picture more clear, quite the opposite.

The Dragon Box footage isn't very clear to begin with. Since so it's so stale, there's only so much you can do with an aged product without taking it out of balance. Grain can serve a similar effect in regards to masking imperfections and such but is too antiquated for modern video. Most people here would've grown up watching FUNI's products so they will be conditioned to the kind of methods that work to expose more detail and clarity; thinking that's right way of going about it. When you see something that does the opposite of that, it's a drastic shift and is very unsettling, but is not something your eyes wouldn't be able to adapt to.
jjgp1112 wrote: What about your approach, which involves blurring the image to insane degrees, is "natural," exactly? It's by far the most unnatural and over-processed stuff in this thread, and I can't even fathom how much of a mess it would be in motion, let alone the stills you've already posted.
By "natural" I'm referring to what is natural to the eyes, not what would be natural to the product itself. The picture you get from a camera/artificial device, with the insane degree of detail and clarity it produces, does not reflect natural vision. And is therefore not ideally something I'd want to stare at for too long.
So, professional animation companies, or companies in charge of remastering shows & movies from film stock won't want the maximum clarity out of the picture, even in HD where video clarity is of the utmost importance? I doubt that in its entirety.
I mean, look at this video comparison of the Star Trek TNG remasters & the DVDs. The visual fidelity & clarity is MUCH clearer in the remasters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph0eXOV1D7I

If I am to believe what you say, I think you're only talking about dream or flashback sequences, or dreams, or something, where sometimes a director or storyboard artist will add a haze effect around the image to signify that. However, that doesn't really hold up to HD remasters of things where that wasn't the intent. You seem to have no idea of why remasters of things get the visual clarity they have from their film masters. The visual fidelity is there on the film, they just need to transfer & clean up the film stock to bring it out. I mean, the only remasters I've seen that actually make the picture worse for an animated work are the Sailor Moon Blu-Rays, where the oversaturation of the colors really washed the picture out. Those got a TON of flack, if you're not aware, & the Blu-Ray of the R movie used a better source for Viz to base their remaster of it on, so it looks great & like what you'd expect for an older animated film.

How is a blurring tool natural to the eyes? Especially with people who don't need corrective lenses. Maybe what you'd get from a camera isn't 100% reflective of natural eyesight, but it's still closer than what you've done. HD is "high definition." The Dragon Boxes weren't remastered for HD, so they don't always have the most consistent color quality or clarity. Until Toei gives a proper HD treatment to the episodes, which probably won't happen since they can't be bothered to give Timeranger a better than VHS-quality remaster for DVD releases like the other Sentai seasons. Grain, as far as I know, helps with preserving visual quality.
Every live action thing shot on film has grain. Look at How I Met Your Mother. A lot of the scenes shot on the bar set have a lot more film grain than you'd expect, but the rest of the show is noticeably free of it for the most part. Film grain is a natural product of the film stock things can be shot on, so there's no way around it. Getting rid of most of it is something I can understand, but you need some amount of it present if you shoot on film & not just water color the shit out of the entirety of a TV series like what FUNi did to Z for their Blu-Rays in addition to the DVNR to try to remove the grain. Even Kai has film grain & it was largely rotoscoped so you wouldn't think there would've been.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:40 pm

i will made dragon ball black and white and then i'll color each frames with pencils -_-" like it seems it start to have really crazy idea i want to have fun too

i'll also remove all lineart, it's boring, i'll remove all details, this way it will be easier


okay i go out very fast :mrgreen:

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:42 pm

HakkaiBills93 wrote:i will made dragon ball black and white and then i'll color each frames with pencils -_-" like it seems it start to have really crazy idea i want to have fun too

i'll also remove all lineart, it's boring, i'll remove all details, this way it will be easier


okay i go out very fast :mrgreen:
Nah man; you've gotta tint it all green. That's how toei wants it to look after all. :lol:
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Kokonoe » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:50 am

Was messing with RetroArch and found I could play video files with it so I tested some shaders with Dragon Ball GT Dragon Box.

The shaders I tested it with is CRT Royale and CRT Royale Kurozumi. This is a very advanced shader that you can read about here that simulates a CRT look. It looks best when ran on a 4K monitor, or using downsample like Nvidia DSR to put 4k to 1080p. That said, CRT Royale Kurozumi I believe doesn't need it as much. And in all honesty, both look fine at 1080p.

CRT Royale Kurozumi is one that is meant to look like a broadcast or professional monitor like a Sony BVM, PVM, etc.
CRT Royale is meant to look like a standard CRT you'd buy on the market and has some "glow" and color alterations.

If you want a "untainted" image, go with Kurozumi, but if you don't mind the color boost and blurry look of a standard CRT and want more of the nostalgia and usage of Shadow Mask, go with CRT Royale.

Both of these can also be modified too though don't ask me how as I haven't gotten that far yet.

That said, if you guys want an interesting way to upscale the image while keeping it intact all the way up to 4k res, I'd say this is worth looking into.

Dragon Box GT at 4k via CRT Royale Kurozumi.

https://files.catbox.moe/siz82i.png
https://files.catbox.moe/o52p16.png
https://files.catbox.moe/i2mol0.png

Dragon Box GT at 4k via CRT Royale.

https://files.catbox.moe/mhmv87.png
https://files.catbox.moe/gvbnj0.png
https://files.catbox.moe/wcpizf.png

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:16 pm

lansing wrote:I added a demo page of the cel matching library to the site. They're just hardcoded for now, in production all the data will be fetch from the database.

The library will show the entire progress of the project in one page. You can browse around and look for any color palette of any scene of any episode.
any news of your kai color match project?

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:58 am

HakkaiBills93 wrote:
lansing wrote:I added a demo page of the cel matching library to the site. They're just hardcoded for now, in production all the data will be fetch from the database.

The library will show the entire progress of the project in one page. You can browse around and look for any color palette of any scene of any episode.
any news of your kai color match project?
Hi I'm still alive, after my last comment I just discovered that I need to learn more new stuff in order to build the database, and then I got busy on the way...

I did managed to do more research on color matching programs though. I found a program called 3D LUT Creator that do a better job than Dr. Dre's program.
There's a measurement for the accuracy of color matching call delta E, the lower the better. And when color matching a bunch of colors(palettes), it's call average delta E.

I did a bunch of color matching tests, and the accuracy of 3DLC were always dead on with an average delta E around 3.0 or less, which pretty much means indistinguishable by eyes. However, unlike Dr. Dre's program, it will not do guesses when a color of the image was not provided in the matching process. For example, if I don't provide a yellow patch from the images, with Dr. Dre's program, it would do a guess on that color based on the curve it has, which can be a hit or miss. But with 3DLC, it won't do anything and return a desaturated block on the yellow area.

There're also rule to follow with 3DLC for better accuracy, that is to always provide patches for the gray scale, a black, gray and white from the images. The program will warn you if you don't do that.

I'm about to finish my works in a few days and will hopefully got back to this project after that.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:41 am

that's great news , curious to see that, maybe it will lead to something really great

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by CloudEPDB » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:33 pm

Hi. I have read each and every one of the answers to this topic. It is very interesting what you are trying to achieve, correct the color of the episodes. I'm trying to do something similar, match or at least make it look like the color of the Dragon Box to the Bluray edition of funimation.

Searching the network for the original tone of the episodes, I found the streaming service of Hikari TV.

On this website there is a thumbnail of the episodes "remastered" or redrawn.

I leave several examples:

ImageImage
ImageImage
ImageImage

I leave more thumbnails, they exist from 36 to 291.

Image
Image
Image

Do you think those colors are the right ones?

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:30 pm

I believe those are from 35mm photographic film cels of the original animation cel drawings, which were done for various publicity purposes. They're kind of the gold standard of how the show would look in ideal circumstances, I'd say.

IIRC, these are the ones Geekdom and a few others mistook for screenshots from a new series remaster from Toei.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by CloudEPDB » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:00 pm

I'm not sure they're anime captures. If you look at episode 290 (the first one) Gokuh's face is corrected. If it were from the 35mm reel it would be the same frame, do not you think?
Be that as it may, I think that is the original color, although with the Color Corrector of DR.Dre it is not possible to imitate it.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:41 pm

excatly what i think, more than that the color can't be match 100% i think those are redrawn picture , i have saint seiya ones and some scenes aren't the same in the anime (for example one is by night but in the anime it's not the night) etc

the dende one with krilin and gohan isn't the same in the anime , gohan left hand can't be seen but in this cels it can, the same for sky colors which have two differrent variations of green but in episodes sky color is only one color

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:45 am

CloudEPDB wrote:I'm not sure they're anime captures. If you look at episode 290 (the first one) Gokuh's face is corrected. If it were from the 35mm reel it would be the same frame, do not you think?
Be that as it may, I think that is the original color, although with the Color Corrector of DR.Dre it is not possible to imitate it.
It's not from a 35mm reel. As I say, they're 35mm photographic film cels.

For various promotional purposes, Toei took 35mm film photos of various key shots using the original animation cels and backgrounds. Essentially, it gives you a frame in better quality than if you just used a screenshot, particularly in the era of having to deal with the show being on either 16mm film reels, or standard-definition videotapes.
HakkaiBills93 wrote:excatly what i think, more than that the color can't be match 100% i think those are redrawn picture , i have saint seiya ones and some scenes aren't the same in the anime (for example one is by night but in the anime it's not the night) etc
the dende one with krilin and gohan isn't the same in the anime , gohan left hand can't be seen but in this cels it can, the same for sky colors which have two differrent variations of green but in episodes sky color is only one color
See above. They're not redrawn, these are the original cels. The reason you're seeing stuff here that you're not elsewhere is because of wider framing of the cel photography for these pictures, potentially some slightly different layering of the animation drawings, and the background thing is obviously because they used the wrong backgrounds for some shots.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Stamosito » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:14 pm

So is there a definitive way to do this yet? I got lost in the discussions of specific color choices. The original post no longer has its pictures available so the guide seems a bit difficult to follow. I would like to do this, but in the most streamlined way possible.

Can someone post a new guide or at least point me in the right direction with this? Also, is there like a set of codes that someone has already compiled to run with the programs so I can just plug them in and hit go?

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