Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

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lansing
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:09 am

Great news! I've got the original color chart used by the animation studios back in the days, it should have most of the color used in Dragon Ball! The package is shipping to me now, it should be arriving next week.

Finally we're getting some real progress after almost 10 years of this thread.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Scsigs » Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:45 am

lansing wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:09 am Great news! I've got the original color chart used by the animation studios back in the days, it should have most of the color used in Dragon Ball! The package is shipping to me now, it should be arriving next week.

Finally we're getting some real progress after almost 10 years of this thread.
Cool. Can't wait to see what you whip up.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:37 pm

Chart arrived. A brief check with my other cels shows that they are not compatible, as they uses different codes. So this chart only works for Toei stuff like Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon.

Image

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by eledoremassis02 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:57 pm

lansing wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:37 pm Chart arrived. A brief check with my other cels shows that they are not compatible, as they uses different codes. So this chart only works for Toei stuff like Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon.
That's pretty nifty

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:52 pm

lansing wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:37 pm Chart arrived. A brief check with my other cels shows that they are not compatible, as they uses different codes. So this chart only works for Toei stuff like Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon.
I disassembled and scanned the whole chart with my calibrated scanner. I found that most of the brighter color of the chart are out of gamut of sRGB. Since 99% of us are using sRGB monitors, this means that our monitor cannot reproduce the actual color of the cel. This also means that the reference color that we tried gathered from random cel scan/photo cannot be right, since 100% of those images were in sRGB.

To reproduce the cel color in image format, we have to scan it with a calibrated scanner, and then save it with a color profile that has a very wide gamut such as ProPhoto RGB or Wide Gamut RGB. And to actually see the correct representation on such image, we'll need one of those professional monitor with very wide gamut.

And to reproduce the color in video, we'll need the Rec2020 color space, the standard for 4K content lol. The gamut in Rec709 is not enough.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:10 am

I have the color chart data up. It should cover 80% of the color that Dragon Ball uses. After almost 10 years of running in circles as a community, we're finally able to take a real first step and to have a foundation to build on.

Notes on the data: about 25% of the color chart has gamut that far exceeded the gamut of our current display devices. So as of now, there is no way to see the actual color on our screen. Therefore for practical use I provided the sRGB values which clipped the out-of-gamut values. So when you see 255 or 0 in the table, that means that color has been clipped.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Lightningexpose » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 am

lansing wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:10 am After almost 10 years of running in circles as a community, we're finally able to take a real first step and to have a foundation to build on.
While it's very cool to have this many of Toei's color codes digitized, I think you're overestimating the impact this'll have on color correcting a DVD source.

To get these exact values on the footage and not look bad you need to be working with significant dynamic range and high bitrate--and even then it's still a big ask. While it's possible to look at a base color and match the hue, you're not going to match the saturation and brightness of most colors and keep the entire image looking natural, let alone get every shade of the cels into the correct combinations.

Good luck if you do try it, but yeah I think you're downplaying too much the significance of other people's corrections that they already have been able to do without the color charts. Though Ashura's images are gone now (I have them on my HDD though), they were CC'd very nicely. A smart colorist will do a loose correction like Ashura's, that pushes everything in the right direction while keeping harmony and balance in the image as a whole, rather than trying to retarget every single individual shade to a new color.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:42 am

Lightningexpose wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 am
lansing wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:10 am After almost 10 years of running in circles as a community, we're finally able to take a real first step and to have a foundation to build on.
Good luck if you do try it, but yeah I think you're downplaying too much the significance of other people's corrections that they already have been able to do without the color charts. Though Ashura's images are gone now (I have them on my HDD though), they were CC'd very nicely. A smart colorist will do a loose correction like Ashura's, that pushes everything in the right direction while keeping harmony and balance in the image as a whole, rather than trying to retarget every single individual shade to a new color.
So while everybody here was trying to match to cel color nowadays and you want to go backward with blind guess correction?

And I'm pretty sure Ashura didn't had the "harmony and balance" in mind when he first posted. How does removing color cast have anything to do with "harmony and balance"??
but yeah I think you're downplaying too much the significance of other people's corrections that they already have been able to do without the color charts.
Like who?

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Lightningexpose » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:30 pm

lansing wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:42 am
Lightningexpose wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 am
lansing wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:10 am After almost 10 years of running in circles as a community, we're finally able to take a real first step and to have a foundation to build on.
Good luck if you do try it, but yeah I think you're downplaying too much the significance of other people's corrections that they already have been able to do without the color charts. Though Ashura's images are gone now (I have them on my HDD though), they were CC'd very nicely. A smart colorist will do a loose correction like Ashura's, that pushes everything in the right direction while keeping harmony and balance in the image as a whole, rather than trying to retarget every single individual shade to a new color.
So while everybody here was trying to match to cel color nowadays and you want to go backward with blind guess correction?

And I'm pretty sure Ashura didn't had the "harmony and balance" in mind when he first posted. How does removing color cast have anything to do with "harmony and balance"??
but yeah I think you're downplaying too much the significance of other people's corrections that they already have been able to do without the color charts.
Like who?
Who is it that's trying to match cel colors via copying the exact values? Anyone who's actually got a good output out of doing so? Anybody with a brain who is referencing cels is looking at them to confirm for example whether DB Goku's gi is more red than orange, or Piccolo's skin is more green than lime, or Goku's undershirt is more blue than purple... I doubt anyone competent is going "okay so I see the cel has RGB values of [X,Y,Z] so that's what I'm going to do on DBox. If they're doing that, please show me. The former, referencing cels for direction and not exact values, has been in practice for years...not "nowadays".

As for Ashura supposedly not having "harmony and balance" in mind...what are you talking about? Do you even know what is meant by terms like that? If not, feel free to ask for help on that.

>Like who?
Ashura, like I said? And literally everyone throughout the 80 pages of this thread who you're saying have been running around in circles.

If you think nobody has color corrected all of DBox for a pirated release yet because they can't decide what to do...you're seriously mistaken. It's the sheer amount of work required to white balance every shot that is why nobody has gotten anywhere yet. If you think adding now a shot by shot color value retargeting step to it is going to make the "community" reach its goal of color corrected DBox any sooner, then you've clearly not got the picture.

Anyway, I do appreciate you digitizing and sharing those color codes though. They help confirm assumptions--and fan art--but yeah they won't be really affecting anyone's ability to color correct DBox.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:57 pm

Lightningexpose wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:30 pm Who is it that's trying to match cel colors via copying the exact values? Anyone who's actually got a good output out of doing so? Anybody with a brain who is referencing cels is looking at them to confirm for example whether DB Goku's gi is more red than orange, or Piccolo's skin is more green than lime, or Goku's undershirt is more blue than purple... I doubt anyone competent is going "okay so I see the cel has RGB values of [X,Y,Z] so that's what I'm going to do on DBox. If they're doing that, please show me. The former, referencing cels for direction and not exact values, has been in practice for years...not "nowadays".
So people who were looking at cel color for reference were not intended to try to match the cel color? That's some mess up logic. And who had tried you ask? Like this, and this?
As for Ashura supposedly not having "harmony and balance" in mind...what are you talking about? Do you even know what is meant by terms like that? If not, feel free to ask for help on that.
Removing color cast + a few color adjustment = harmony and balance?? Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about, feel free to educate me.
>Like who?
Ashura, like I said? And literally everyone throughout the 80 pages of this thread who you're saying have been running around in circles.
And where are we now? What "significant" color corrected samples/screenshots do we have? We are, like I said, running in circles. People comes, people tried and failed. Many gave up because the lack the color reference, that includes me.
If you think adding now a shot by shot color value retargeting step to it is going to make the "community" reach its goal of color corrected DBox any sooner, then you've clearly not got the picture.
You are the one that's been mistaking. Having an color chart is the foundation of accurate color correction, it has nothing to do with people's ability to match it or whatever can do with it. It's like when someone provided a set of color pencils and you're like "but it can't draw"...

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Lightningexpose » Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:50 pm

> So people who were looking at cel color for reference were not intended to try to match the cel color?

A good colorist looks at references without the intention of copying all the values, yes...what's so difficult to understand about this? There's a reason why "referencing" and "copying" are two different words :thumbup:

Here, show me what you got by color correcting this with your mehtods: Image


> And where are we now? What "significant" color corrected samples/screenshots do we have? We are, like I said, running in circles.

lmao speak for yourself. Many have achieved satisfying color corrections for DBox, heck even Ashura himself did hence why he started this thread to teach people. It just seems though there are mostly two types of people who still continually bring this thread back: A) the people whose head Ashura's guide went right over and so they to this day are struggling or B) new users who never got to read the OP with its pictures.

Anyway, like I say go ahead and color correct that above screenshot with your value matching method so we can see what it looks like to no longer be running around in circles.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:42 pm

Call me "easy to please," but if someone upped the brightness, turned down the tint, and moved the little color scale just a smidge from green to blue, I think I'd be happy as can be.

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by lansing » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:43 pm

Lightningexpose wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:50 pm > So people who were looking at cel color for reference were not intended to try to match the cel color?

A good colorist looks at references without the intention of copying all the values, yes...what's so difficult to understand about this? There's a reason why "referencing" and "copying" are two different words :thumbup:
According to you, Steve Franko who cc'ed Dragon Ball Z level set must not be a good colorist, since he was also matching the film to a reference color chart lol.

https://youtu.be/moAy02J2fd8?t=160

And stop putting the term "copying" into my mouth, the one who kept saying it is you, not me.
Here, show me what you got by color correcting this with your mehtods:

> And where are we now? What "significant" color corrected samples/screenshots do we have? We are, like I said, running in circles.

lmao speak for yourself. Many have achieved satisfying color corrections for DBox, heck even Ashura himself did hence why he started this thread to teach people. It just seems though there are mostly two types of people who still continually bring this thread back: A) the people whose head Ashura's guide went right over and so they to this day are struggling or B) new users who never got to read the OP with its pictures.

Anyway, like I say go ahead and color correct that above screenshot with your value matching method so we can see what it looks like to no longer be running around in circles.
I don't understand what's your point. I'm not here to argue about what's the better method to use the chart, my sharing here is to provide a foundation to build on top, something that people can rely on. The how's and where's should be figured out by the users, not me.

Or are you really here to argue that a color correction done by blind guess will look better than the one that was done based on a color chart?

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Peenoisedbfanboi » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:47 pm

Image


a cc sent to me by a friend on discord

What do y'all think?
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:17 pm

Buu Dragon Box is fugly so anything is an improvement
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Ashura » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:02 pm

Wow, first, I'm amazed this thread is still going. I posted this in February 2012 and it'll be 10 years next month.

I want to say that this thread was meant to give people the ability to color correct the Dragon Box (or whatever anime) themselves using free tools. There was so much fighting back then about "the right colors" that my intent with this thread was to give people the tools to do it themselves so they could color correct the footage to their own liking. It's not a masterclass in color theory or intent or reading color charts or how to use professional stuff to do it and on and on. There also exists a lot better, less kludgey software to do all of this now, too.

It was not meant to be the be-all-end-all method. It was meant to open the door for people and for people to hopefully share their own work, processes, and techniques.

I've learned a lot since I posted all this information, as anyone who is always trying to learn does, and I think that there's been a lot of good work done in here in the stuff people have shown off over the years.

What kind of bums me out, though, is most people who have posted their work here have not shared how they accomplished their work. The intent of this thread was to share things, and unfortunately a lot of people have hidden their personal techniques like they're some kind of "trade secret."

Just the antithesis of my intent with this thread, really. I am a big proponent of sharing technique with the next generation, since no one was willing to teach me when I was younger. A big thank you to those people who have not only shared their work but how they've done it over the years. Really cool to see this thread still going.
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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Trachta10 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:19 pm

something that works for me, and looks good at least in the first episodes

is reduce the green channer to 70% and increase the red to 30%

Image

Image
Image

and then this is something I do sometimes, change the black and white level

Image

Image

https://imgsli.com/OTM4NDg

other example

Image
Image
Image

https://imgsli.com/OTM4NTk

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by eledoremassis02 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:28 pm

Would these be of any interest?

They (I think) came from a German print so I am not 100% sure how accurate the colors would be. I can get better photos off my DSLR mirrorless if they can be of any help. These were just quick off my phone

Image

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by vanner64 » Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:20 am

Some good talk here. I saw someone asked about sharing methods, so I wanted to share what my method is for white balancing. A proper white balance will go a long way before general color correction.

This is my first basic white balance tutorial: https://youtu.be/mnmQylScvzk

I run a Discord group and we've been working away at the series since it is a tedious process, and I made a second video here that addresses some challenges people have: https://youtu.be/8X6_0FikZW4

I think with these tutorials, anyone can learn these methods, regardless of experience or screen quality.

We've completed all 153 episodes of Dragon Ball and are currently working through DBZ and DBGT. If anyone has interesting in joining I can post the invite link here, we're always looking for more volunteers!

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Re: Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

Post by Lightningexpose » Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:24 pm

lansing wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:43 pm
Lightningexpose wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:50 pm > So people who were looking at cel color for reference were not intended to try to match the cel color?

A good colorist looks at references without the intention of copying all the values, yes...what's so difficult to understand about this? There's a reason why "referencing" and "copying" are two different words :thumbup:
According to you, Steve Franko who cc'ed Dragon Ball Z level set must not be a good colorist, since he was also matching the film to a reference color chart lol.

https://youtu.be/moAy02J2fd8?t=160

And stop putting the term "copying" into my mouth, the one who kept saying it is you, not me.
Here, show me what you got by color correcting this with your mehtods:

> And where are we now? What "significant" color corrected samples/screenshots do we have? We are, like I said, running in circles.

lmao speak for yourself. Many have achieved satisfying color corrections for DBox, heck even Ashura himself did hence why he started this thread to teach people. It just seems though there are mostly two types of people who still continually bring this thread back: A) the people whose head Ashura's guide went right over and so they to this day are struggling or B) new users who never got to read the OP with its pictures.

Anyway, like I say go ahead and color correct that above screenshot with your value matching method so we can see what it looks like to no longer be running around in circles.
I don't understand what's your point. I'm not here to argue about what's the better method to use the chart, my sharing here is to provide a foundation to build on top, something that people can rely on. The how's and where's should be figured out by the users, not me.

Or are you really here to argue that a color correction done by blind guess will look better than the one that was done based on a color chart?
I won't pretend to understand exactly what Steve Franko is doing there, but to me it looks more like a calibration thing he did for the scanner one time, using that TAF, before scanning the DBZ reels. A far cry from your desire of matching the exact color palette for each character on every single shot of 291 episodes.

And I won't disrespect Steve Franko's color work outside of the level sets, but yes his work on level sets isn't great. Just go check ep 5, that's the one I remember from top of my head that's full of blatant red tinting. I thought fans realized by now levels aren't all that great?

>Or are you really here to argue that a color correction done by blind guess will look better
looking at references for direction, instead of exact color matching, is not "blind guess".

@Ashura
Not like anyone is using any special techniques. Everyone appears to be using the most basic tools out there.

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