Unpopular DB opinions

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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:48 pm

What are you talking about regarding animation? I thought the artwork from the 23rd TB through the Saiyan arc was DB at his best. I also have a soft spot for the more rounded early DB art style.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:Early DB (Pre-Raditz) is extremely overrated.
If anything its underrated as Dragon Ball fans especially in the West act like everything begins and ends with DBZ and maybe Super because its current. Even Dragon Ball Kai’s attitude toward it was basically “eh not important”

when it features many of the same writing flaws of the future installments
Such as? If we’re comparing animes it has far better pacing, less repetitive writing and does more with its cast and world than later series

on average the worst animation and art design out of all 4 series
It’s the oldest series so its gonna look rougher. And yet I still disagree since Super is really cheap and ugly looking. And DBZ isn’t much better on this front than OG Dragon Ball as GT isn’t much better animation wise than DBZ

Path to Power was the only time I ever thought “Wow this animation is really good” and I guess that technically qualifies as GT but it looks better than the GT series


a mostly forgettable supporting cast
It has a supporting cast.
1. Its overrated because many anime snobs love to dogmatically insist that Early DB was the best using many flawed arguments and double standards. It gets to the point where many of them spread the lie that Early DB is more popular and influential in Japan than Z is (which is clearly false to any non-biased person).

2. Less repetitive I'd give you that, but no less contrived and plot hole ridden than any of the other shows.

3. There were plenty of mid-to-late 80s TV anime and manga that had better animation and art than Early DB did, so the "for its time" excuse doesn't work in this case. And the best animated and drawn episodes of Z/Super/GT far surpasses anything we see in Early DB.

4. Outside of the tournament arcs (except Yamcha who was always a joke since day 1), the supporting cast beside Bulma was never particularly useful in Early DB, nor did any of them receive any additional character development after joining Goku's side. Hell, Krillin was more useful in the Saiyan & Namek arcs of Z than he ever was in Early DB.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:14 pm

So how interesting a character is is based on how much they help take down the bad guy? Muten Roshi didn't take down any of the big bads, but him stepping down during the 22nd TB is as affecting as any moment in all of DB. Besides Vegeta, most of the characters don't get much development. I know you'll say Gohan, but his is erratic.
but no less contrived and plot hole ridden than any of the other shows.
But somehow still the worst of the 3 or 4?

DB has some of the absolute best fights in all of DB.

Given how many people don't have any intention of watching DB for some inane reason, I'd say the number of people who are snobs about DB pales in comparison to those that are snobby about DBZ.

As for the animation, the art style these days is so ugly and plastic looking. DB at its worst blows it away.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:38 pm

zarmack wrote:
1. Its overrated because many anime snobs love to dogmatically insist that Early DB was the best using many flawed arguments and double standards. It gets to the point where many of them spread the lie that Early DB is more popular and influential in Japan than Z is (which is clearly false to any non-biased person).
Most “anime snobs” are dismissive of the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole. What double standards are the pro-OG Dragon Ball camp using?

I do agree the lie some spread that it’s more popular in Japan is annoying. It’s quite obvious that’s not true given the preferential treatment DBZ recieves in Japan. To be fair I haven’t seen this argument nearly as much since circa Battle of the Gods

.
3. There were plenty of mid-to-late 80s TV anime and manga that had better animation and art than Early DB did, so the "for its time" excuse doesn't work in this case. And the best animated and drawn episodes of Z/Super/GT far surpasses anything we see in Early DB.
And that mid to late 80s tv anime also probably had better animation and art than DBZ and maybe even DBGT because it really didn’t get much noticably better.

And again Super just looks so cheap and half assed. Dragon Ball at worse looks standards 80s anime fare

Super is a huge step backwards.

And DBZ and DBGT are only better in the sense they damn well should show some improvement over the 100+ episodes working on the show. There’s still no giant leap in animation quality

4.Outside of the tournament arcs (except Yamcha who was always a joke since day 1),
Because of his crippling fear of pretty girls?

Yamucha was more useful in early Dragon Ball than any other period and was Goku’s first real challenge.

In DBZ he might as well of stayed dead after the Saiyajin saga.

the supporting cast beside Bulma was never particularly useful in Early DB,
I don’t know what requires a character to be “useful” this isn’t like DBZ where every major arc was “stop x bad guy”

. Hell, Krillin was more useful in the Saiyan & Namek arcs of Z than he ever was in Early DB.
They had a mission in the Saiyajin and Namek arcs. In early Dragon Ball his role was Goku’s martial arts rival and later friend which he did fine. You’re comparing apples to orange.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:54 pm

ABED wrote:So how interesting a character is is based on how much they help take down the bad guy? Muten Roshi didn't take down any of the big bads, but him stepping down during the 22nd TB is as affecting as any moment in all of DB. Besides Vegeta, most of the characters don't get much development. I know you'll say Gohan, but his is erratic.
You are pointing words in my mouth. I never said that is what makes them interesting. I said that characters in Early DB would stop developing once they join Goku's crew. Tien being the biggest example, after the 22th TB he has been a nothing character.
ABED wrote: But somehow still the worst of the 3 or 4?
Never said it was. Its easily better than GT overall.


ABED wrote:Given how many people don't have any intention of watching DB for some inane reason, I'd say the number of people who are snobs about DB pales in comparison to those that are snobby about DBZ.
People who are snobby about Early DB tend to be snobby about the whole franchise. I've never seen a pretentious anime fan or DB fanboy throw Early DB under the bus while praising Z. Especially during the early to mid 2000s.
ABED wrote:As for the animation, the art style these days is so ugly and plastic looking. DB at its worst blows it away.
That's a hyperbolic statement. Much of Early DB's art is as bad as modern Yamamuro's.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:32 am

First, it's putting, not pointing. Second, you wrote "he was more useful" so it wasn't a leap.
People who are snobby about Early DB tend to be snobby about the whole franchise. I've never seen a pretentious anime fan or DB fanboy throw Early DB under the bus while praising Z. Especially during the early to mid 2000s.
I've seen it a lot. There have been people in this very forum who damn near refused to go back and watch DB. And far too many falsely claim DB is basically all like the very first arc.
That's a hyperbolic statement. Much of Early DB's art is as bad as modern Yamamuro's.
It's really not. I hate modern looking DB. There was a charm to the early chapters.

One of my biggest problems with DBZ is it overused taking Goku early on in the arc then waiting for him to come back to help take down the big bad. DB kept things fresh by changing things up constantly. The arcs were also on average much shorter.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Anime Kitten » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:34 am

While the topic is on earlier vs later DB, I'm of the opinion that the entire series from beginning to end is fantastic all the way through. I never personally felt a quality drop (certainly not a drop in enjoyment, at least) during any point in the story, though that could just be my optimistic side talking.

I can't speak on GT as I haven't seen it in a long time nor in Japanese, but I would also add that I've enjoyed the majority of the franchise since the manga ended just as much as the manga itself. Sure, every installment in the franchise is flawed in some way or another; but I like to weigh the cons against the pros and decide which is heavier, i.e. if I can essentially "ignore" the flaws for the sake of enjoying it more. That's also why I hold the unpopular opinion that Super is just as good in its own way as the original series; that is, I think it's just as entertaining and enjoyable, albeit maybe Super goes about it in a different way.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

I don't have a problem with the conclusion ScrewAttack drew about Goku vs Superman. I think it appeals more to the way I look at things; I don't care about feats or fussing over internal logic, I'm more of a big-picture themes guy. When they say Goku could never beat Superman because Superman is meant to represent an exceptional ideal while Goku represents a constant strive toward self-improvement with the fallibility that comes with it, that makes sense to me. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I believe one of them has gone on record saying they overdid it, but at the time, that explanation made sense to me because it fits my sensibilities as a viewer. I'm not about to break out the graph paper and go "well, actually..."

By the same token, I've seen a lot of annoyance over the fact that Beerus was always out of Goku's reach despite the huge gains he made in Super. I personally like the idea of a character as a long-term goal for Goku to work towards, it fits well with the theme of self-improvement at the core of his character. So many characters get wasted because they just get surpassed automatically when the next arc rolls around, so having Beerus continue to be a factor right up until the end was a nice change. But I see people latch onto stuff like how Beerus was using 70 per cent of his power in the first fight and go "b..but Goku has gotten Super Saiyan Blue and can go Kaioken x 10 since then and still can't beat Beerus? He must've been lying! PLOT HOLE!!" And I just sigh. Like, it's such a shallow way to look at it in my opinion.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:35 am

Anime Kitten wrote:While the topic is on earlier vs later DB i.e. if I can essentially "ignore" the flaws for the sake of enjoying it more. That's also why I hold the unpopular opinion that Super is just as good in its own way as the original series; that is, I think it's just as entertaining and enjoyable, albeit maybe Super goes about it in a different way.

That's a big part of the 'problem': people expect too much from it and keep feeling unhappy because they have high standards. If you keep it reasonably low and watch the new content with the eyes of a kid, just take it as it comes, it permits more enjoyment of the new content.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:54 pm

I like Welcome to the Grand Tour. Also, Fight it Out is one of the best DB opening themes.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by kudo6000 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:16 pm

Bt3 did not age well and is a really mediocre game.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:05 pm

Xenoverse and FighterZ did nothing to be called best DB games. Especially FighterZ.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tian » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:15 pm

kudo6000 wrote:Bt3 did not age well and is a really mediocre game.
For me, BT3 is too overrated. I prefer BT2.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GT_Goten10 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:49 pm

Tian wrote:
kudo6000 wrote:Bt3 did not age well and is a really mediocre game.
For me, BT3 is too overrated. I prefer BT2.
I agree
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Forte224 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 am

ABED wrote:The Kikuchi score placement in Kai is fine and people are overblowing how bad it is.
I'm late on responding to this, but how do you feel about the Kikuchi placement vs the Yamamoto score? And what do you think of Kai's voice acting being inferior to the original? Referring to the Japanese voice acting of course. Asking because I might re-watch Kai soon and I'm just getting some perspective.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:43 am

Forte224 wrote:
ABED wrote:The Kikuchi score placement in Kai is fine and people are overblowing how bad it is.
I'm late on responding to this, but how do you feel about the Kikuchi placement vs the Yamamoto score? And what do you think of Kai's voice acting being inferior to the original? Referring to the Japanese voice acting of course. Asking because I might re-watch Kai soon and I'm just getting some perspective.
I know this isn’t directed at me but from what little I watched of Japanese Kai I really didn’t notice a drop in acting quality from the cast.

I noticed a much greater difference in the Funi cast voice acting wise in Kai vs Z (for the better) than any difference in the Japanese cast.

I still prefer Kai in English because even though it carries over some of the inherent issues with the Japanese Kai its just so much better than the Z dub.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:17 am

There's a noticeable drop in quality from Z to Kai with the exception of a few actors (e.g. Horikawa, Nakao).

I enjoyed the Yamamoto score. I don't have anything else to add besides that.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:17 pm

The only thing good about Kai is that is way short than Z, I didn't appreciate much the score and a few voice actors changes.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:52 am

There's a double standard with people complaining about Dragon Ball Minus overriding Bardock the Father of Goku, because I'm betting many of those people have no problem what so ever with the idea of Dragon Ball Super overriding Dragon Ball GT (the hate boner western fans have for GT is still very real). The Bardock special may have had more of a claim to canonicity due to Toriyama directly referencing it in the manga, but it was always a product of the anime first and foremost, and the manga reference was vague enough that Toriyama could still do his own thing with a prequel, so its canonicity was never solid. Now it has seemingly been discarded just like many other anime-only elements and many fans are rightly pissed off (for the record, I don't like Dragon Ball Minus either), but it's still a double standard. It's just people defending the stuff they like while bashing the stuff they don't like.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:15 am

Majin Buu wrote:but it's still a double standard. It's just people defending the stuff they like while bashing the stuff they don't like.
Not seeing the issue here. Of course people will defend the stuff they enjoy and knock the stuff they don't.
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