Unpopular DB opinions

[Mago_Gosora]

Oh these are fun. I hope nobody gets mad at me but I don't like ultra instinct.

It's one thing for the design to be lazy, the designs in Super for new "transformations" have always been that way. But the thing I dislike most about 'ultra instinct' is its concept. It really all started when Whis was training Vegeta & Son Gokuh after they beat Zamasu. He would say not to think so much before you act and just relax, focus, and let your body do the action. That sounded familiar to me and I quickly remembered where I heard it. It sounded a lot like the training Son Gokuh received from Karin and Kami when he was a kid.

During the tournament between all those universes, Muten Roshi had to remind him of all those lessons he'd received which helped him "transform", or at least that's how they made it appear; but when they talk about it they make it sound like its merely a state of mind. Jiren even mentions during the fight that Son Gokuh seemed much more relaxed and Gokuh confirmed that to him. Basically, ultra instinct seems nothing more than the calm state of mind martial artists strive to obtain. But outwardly, they make Son Gokuh change as though he transformed; making his eyes lightly coloured and later even changing his hair colour (again). The TV show is even worse, treating it like he'd obtained some kind of new super power being FASTER UND STRONGER TAHN EVAR!!1! It all seems so unnecessary.

And therein lies my main problem with it is that this state of mind is something Son Gokuh already had mastered years ago - relaxing, having a calm spirit, not wasting movement, focussing, being able to act swiftly without thinking too much - which was necessary to KO Piccolo Daimao Jr to finally win the tournament making him the "Tenkaichi" which is why it took Raditz to come down from literal space and show him being "Tenkaichi" doesn't mean he's all powerful. I think ultra instinct simultaneously retreads old ground for a "new transformation" and diminishes the meaning everything he learnt leading up to the end of Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

Oh these are fun. I hope nobody gets mad at me but I don't like ultra instinct.

It's one thing for the design to be lazy, the designs in Super for new "transformations" have always been that way. But the thing I dislike most about 'ultra instinct' is its concept. It really all started when Whis was training Vegeta & Son Gokuh after they beat Zamasu. He would say not to think so much before you act and just relax, focus, and let your body do the action. That sounded familiar to me and I quickly remembered where I heard it. It sounded a lot like the training Son Gokuh received from Karin and Kami when he was a kid.

During the tournament between all those universes, Muten Roshi had to remind him of all those lessons he'd received which helped him "transform", or at least that's how they made it appear; but when they talk about it they make it sound like its merely a state of mind. Jiren even mentions during the fight that Son Gokuh seemed much more relaxed and Gokuh confirmed that to him. Basically, ultra instinct seems nothing more than the calm state of mind martial artists strive to obtain. But outwardly, they make Son Gokuh change as though he transformed; making his eyes lightly coloured and later even changing his hair colour (again). The TV show is even worse, treating it like he'd obtained some kind of new super power being FASTER UND STRONGER TAHN EVAR!!1! It all seems so unnecessary.

And therein lies my main problem with it is that this state of mind is something Son Gokuh already had mastered years ago - relaxing, having a calm spirit, not wasting movement, focussing, being able to act swiftly without thinking too much - which was necessary to KO Piccolo Daimao Jr to finally win the tournament making him the "Tenkaichi" which is why it took Raditz to come down from literal space and show him being "Tenkaichi" doesn't mean he's all powerful. I think ultra instinct simultaneously retreads old ground for a "new transformation" and diminishes the meaning everything he learnt leading up to the end of Dragon Ball.

Goku didn't win the 23rd TB by act without thinking too much. He won by flying out of the way and then ramming Piccolo's ribs head first.

[Mago_Gosora]

He got that far in the fight and was able to get into the position to be able to do something like that because of his hard work and the training he'd received over the years. A lot of time during that tournament was spent showing how much Son Gokuh had improved and demonstrating the skills he learnt after training at kami's temple.

[ABED]

He got that far in the fight and was able to get into the position to be able to do something like that because of his hard work and the training he'd received over the years. A lot of time during that tournament was spent showing how much Son Gokuh had improved and demonstrating the skills he learnt after training at kami's temple.

Not sure how this is a counterargument. Much of that training we're shown is filler.

[Mago_Gosora]

Even in the manga, he went to kami's temple - though it wasn't really shown - and he still displayed much improvement and new skills in the tournament matches against all his opponents leaving everyone to wonder "what kind of training has he received?" Plus, the DBS manga agrees that the training he received at kami's temple was what the DB TV show said it was, the "Be as tranquil as the heavens, and as quick as the bolt from the blue." (Probably translated wrong by the translator) referencing in DB "Be as calm as the sky but quick as lightning." Really not seeing an issue here.

[Scsigs]

Not sure how unpopular it is, but I'll say it. Sabat's performance as Yi Xing Long (also known as Omega Shenron in the dub) is the weakest character voice he's done for the series. It's too rough, mumbly and grating to listen to. I prefer Noah Umholtz from Blue Water's GT dub because while it may be a bland voice the delivery at least feels more natural.

In the unlikely event Funimation ever redubs GT or Yi Xing Long makes an appearance in future Dragon Ball content I want to see Sabat do away with the old performance and go in a completely different direction because I find it hard to imagine how even his improved acting ccould salvage that performance.

I think he sounded...okay in dub, but he sounds awful in Xenoverse. I can barely understand what is he saying.
I think Syn Shenron had better voice in this dub. Why the f**k did they even change his voice actor for transformation that barely has any visual changes? And what's worse after Gogeta made him revert to previous form, they STILL kept his Omega voice and called him "Omega Shenron".

I swear they should apologize for making such terrible dub.

They changed it to Sabat for Omega because of the fact that, with the fact that he absorbed the other Dragon Balls, he was technically whole again as a Shenron like the original, Black Star, & Porunga Shenrons.

[ABED]

Even in the manga, he went to kami's temple - though it wasn't really shown - and he still displayed much improvement and new skills in the tournament matches against all his opponents leaving everyone to wonder "what kind of training has he received?" Plus, the DBS manga agrees that the training he received at kami's temple was what the DB TV show said it was, the "Be as tranquil as the heavens, and as quick as the bolt from the blue." (Probably translated wrong by the translator) referencing in DB "Be as calm as the sky but quick as lightning." Really not seeing an issue here.

He always shows improvement after training. Being calm and tranquil and quick is vague. The issue is you haven't shown the skills he possesses in Ultra Instinct were what he learned when he trained at Kami's. Yes, he trained at Kami's temple in the manga, but most of the training wasn't shown.

[WittyUsername]

Not sure how unpopular it is, but I'll say it. Sabat's performance as Yi Xing Long (also known as Omega Shenron in the dub) is the weakest character voice he's done for the series. It's too rough, mumbly and grating to listen to. I prefer Noah Umholtz from Blue Water's GT dub because while it may be a bland voice the delivery at least feels more natural.

In the unlikely event Funimation ever redubs GT or Yi Xing Long makes an appearance in future Dragon Ball content I want to see Sabat do away with the old performance and go in a completely different direction because I find it hard to imagine how even his improved acting ccould salvage that performance.

The only real problem I have with it is the filter they put on his voice. With that said, I think they should’ve just stuck with Bob Carter.

[Raimundo]

Unpopular opinions? I find Jiren one of the cooler characters (though I don’t find him well written).

I find Vegeta to be one of the most boring characters in the entire series. He was great on Namek to me but became dreadfully boring afterwards and his character has never recovered for me. I never cared for his obsession over Goku especially when at times it felt like he cared way more about this rivalry than Goku did. It’s fine he still wants to surpass Goku, but I find myself annoyed when he still gets salty over him. I acknowledge his growth, but I don’t particularly care for the direction it took his character in. Add in things like how I’m told he’s this tactical genius when more often than not he’s portrayed as a brute, his skill set is dull, and outside a select few fights, the rest of his fights are boring as well.

Cell and his saga are in the running for the lowest point of the series.

Kid Goku and ToP-Current Goku are the best Goku. Z Goku is incredibly boring himself for feeling way too much like a plot device than an actual character at times

[Mago_Gosora]

He always shows improvement after training. Being calm and tranquil and quick is vague. The issue is you haven't shown the skills he possesses in Ultra Instinct were what he learned when he trained at Kami's. Yes, he trained at Kami's temple in the manga, but most of the training wasn't shown.

I get that. Of course he always improves his strength, but in Dragon Ball he's also trained on his mental strength; not just at kami's temple either. From the end of Dragon Ball to DBS we don't see Son Gokuh training his mind, we see him mainly training his body. The closest we get to that is when he trained at Kaioh's planet when he learns to control his ki, which admittedly is also flashed back in Super. But Whis' training is strangely familiar. He says not to think before moving and let your body use its senses on it's own. Sounds an awful lot like both Karin and kami's training....

Obviously, Muten Roshi laid out the basics teaching him to hone his mental strength, the importance of focusing, learning to exercise mental abilities, and the importance of relaxing oneself, and the importance of moving swiftly. But Karin taught him how to fight more efficiently so he doesn't waste energy by using extra movement even if briefly. And then of course at kami's temple he's taught this lesson on a deeper level after he's told to "be tranquil and quick." You say its vague, but we see Son Gokuh learning to empty his being - not just his mind but his senses as well, and to "feel" movement rather than needing to physically see it; and he had to learn to keep such a state of mind while in the midst of fighting. Not to mention for the first time he is taught meditation. Hardly what I would call vague.

You see, to look for movement and to respond to that required thinking. Mr Popo taught Son Gokuh to let his body use its senses on it's own to respond to his opponent. Vegeta is taught this too in Super, but the one who benefited from this was Son Gokuh. Vegeta even admits he has a ways to go before learning that. But Son Gokuh is also shown in Super not getting this as though he'd yet to learn this lesson. We already know for a fact he not only received this training but demonstrably mastered it when fighting his way through his only tournament win; the pinnacle of not only his physical training throughout his life up to that point but also his mental training in all the series'. I know Toriyama admitted not having the best memory but that seems to me a pretty big aspect of the series.

[ABED]

Again, you're pointing to filler. At Kaio's we don't see him learn to control his Ki better. That's what he learned at Kami's, hence his ability to fly enabling him to defeat Piccolo and win the tournament.

[Mago_Gosora]

Nope! On Kaio's planet, in the manga, he learns kaioken which is a technique learnt through controlling one's own ki; in addition to this he learnt to control genki as well in learning the genki dama. No filler required to know that. He demonstrates this during his fight with Vegeta in the manga, and it was also flashed back to in Super. And while he did learn ki control, but it still isn't quite the mental training he went through before the tournament where he beat Piccolo. That's why I said it was the closest to the training he got from Roshi, Karin, and Popo/kami but my point stands: Between the 23rd Tenkaichi tournament and Dragon Ball Super where Whis trains Son Gokuh & Vegeta there was no real mental training being done. It was all physical, so no it is not the same thing. And like I said, Whis' training merely echoes training he received as a kid; which is weird to me because in DB we know he's already mastered that.

[ABED]

From Kaio, he learns further applications of ki, but until he trained with Kami and Popo, he didn't have an explicit understanding of how to utilize it. He could do the Kamehameha, but he couldn't fly and it wasn't even until his power was released just before fighting Daimao that he could sense Ki.

Whis' training doesn't echo what he learned. As I pointed out, that training you say he got was filler.

[Mago_Gosora]

In Super? No he learns it from Whis in the Super manga too. That's why before going into this "ultra instinct" he remembers Whis telling him the same thing he told Vegeta earlier in the manga. He did that training with Whis, it isn't filler.

Unless of course you mean his training at kami's temple is filler, which it isn't. Read chapters 163-165. Everything I outlined:

And then of course at kami's temple he's taught this lesson on a deeper level after he's told to "be tranquil and quick." You say its vague, but we see Son Gokuh learning to empty his being - not just his mind but his senses as well, and to "feel" movement rather than needing to physically see it; and he had to learn to keep such a state of mind while in the midst of fighting. Not to mention for the first time he is taught meditation. Hardly what I would call vague.

was explicitly demonstrated between Son Gokuh and Mr Popo at kami's temple, including meditation. So whatever you're claiming to be filler, it isn't. I've not once referred to the TV show for reference, I'm getting all this straight from the manga itself.

[ABED]

I'm talking about the filler before the 23rd TB. Goku is meditating. And telling him to be tranquil and quick isn't the same as teaching Goku to fight on pure instinct. Whis and Beerus are trying to teach Goku to fight without thinking at all, that even the short time taken between sensing ki, thinking of how to react, and action is too much. Beerus can fight using his fight as though they have minds of their own. That's not the same as Goku learning to sense Ki. There are certainly similarities, but what Beerus is teaching him is PhD level whereas Kami was at the high school level.

[Mago_Gosora]

Well I'm not referring to any of the filler before the tournament. I'm referring to:



Looks an awful lot like meditation to me.

Also, clearing your mind and senses so to react to movement - instead of seeing and responding to that - based on the body's instinct is exactly the same thing as acting on pure instinct. As Muten Roshi told Son Gokuh in Super: It isn't enough to be strong, Son Gokuh must also be able to "move well." Which is exactly what he learnt from Karin and at kami's temple. It's nothing new. But Super treated it as though it was new. At kami's temple, it isn't about sensing ki. Mr Popo specifies that it's about reacting without thinking and thereby not wasting any movement so he can fight more effectively.

[ABED]

I know he meditated. I didn't say otherwise.

At Kami's temple, it is about learning to sense Ki. He doesn't have that ability before then. He just started to be able to sense ki right before fighting Daimao. He's meditating and clearing his mind so he can focus on learning to sense Ki.

[Mago_Gosora]

I know he learns it there, but what I'm saying is it wasn't the main lesson he learnt there. He learnt not only to sense ki but to hone his own ki. And the reason for teaching him that is to teach him about ki itself. Like you said, its something he didn't even know before going to the temple.

Mr Popo told him to clear his mind so he can "feel movement" i.e. instead of watching his opponent and thinking what to do next before doing it, to simply feel it and react accordingly. All that wasted movement is due to thinking too much before acting. When Son Gokuh first arrived, Mr Popo makes it clear there isn't a lot of oxygen and he'll wear himself out if he keeps wasting movement. This is the introduction and the point to his training there. Sensing ki is only half the battle and that's why it's only the first 10 mins in the manga of what would be a 3 year stay at kami's temple for Son Gokuh.

[ABED]

Mr Popo told him to clear his mind so he can "feel movement" i.e. instead of watching his opponent and thinking what to do next before doing it, to simply feel it and react accordingly.

It seems to me that "i.e." is your inference. The rest of your post is the same. Not wasting movement in this context can mean a lot of things. It can simply mean not expending energy unnecessarily. You're taking too big a leap. Just learning to fly was a big lesson he has to learn, one that enables him to win the tournament. Nothing in the tournament pays off what you implicitly claim Toriyama was setting up. Beerus and Whis' lessons were set up for Goku achieving Ultra Instinct. There's nothing that implies Goku learning to sense Ki isn't still a conscious process by the end of his training.

[Mago_Gosora]

My reference is everything Mr Popo told Son Gokuh at kami's temple in the manga, but in addition to that is the things he demonstrated at the tournament also point to his training being the difference in the fight vs Piccolo Jr.

Gokuh demonstrated the same things to Ten Shinhan that Mr Popo demonstrated to him during the initial test fight Popo gave him. Which means his training was a success. And about halfway through the fight between Piccolo Jr & Son Gokuh, Muten Roshi remarks noticing despite using a strong Kamehameha after all he'd done in that fight his stamina was still the same and wondered what kind of training he'd received. The reader knows the training he was receiving. Training that would teach him to empty his mind and soul, to control his ki so not to waste movement so he could fight even in an environment without a lot of oxygen without wearing himself out or depleting his stamina, and eventually gaining the ability to fight while moving as quick as lightning by staying tranquil as the sky.

Like I said, learning to sense ki was only a part - not the whole - of his training at kami's temple. This is why sensing ki was not something that necessarily helped him win the fight against Piccolo Jr. However controlling his own ki, moving quickly with the ability to simply react to movement, and being able to do so without wasting movements and wearing himself out too quickly did make the difference in the fight. Before kami's temple, he did not have what it takes to be the tenkaichi. Kami explains that to him when he told him that Piccolo Jr would be training for the tournament and be stronger than Piccolo Daimao was before. After this training, even kami during the fight vs Piccolo Jr, acknowledged that it was not possible for Son Gokuh to win. And ultimately he did.