Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

My reference is everything Mr Popo told Son Gokuh at kami's temple in the manga, but in addition to that is the things he demonstrated at the tournament also point to his training being the difference in the fight vs Piccolo Jr.

Gokuh demonstrated the same things to Ten Shinhan that Mr Popo demonstrated to him during the initial test fight Popo gave him. Which means his training was a success. And about halfway through the fight between Piccolo Jr & Son Gokuh, Muten Roshi remarks noticing despite using a strong Kamehameha after all he'd done in that fight his stamina was still the same and wondered what kind of training he'd received. The reader knows the training he was receiving. Training that would teach him to empty his mind and soul, to control his ki so not to waste movement so he could fight even in an environment without a lot of oxygen without wearing himself out or depleting his stamina, and eventually gaining the ability to fight while moving as quick as lightning by staying tranquil as the sky.

Like I said, learning to sense ki was only a part - not the whole - of his training at kami's temple. This is why sensing ki was not something that necessarily helped him win the fight against Piccolo Jr. However controlling his own ki, moving quickly with the ability to simply react to movement, and being able to do so without wasting movements and wearing himself out too quickly did make the difference in the fight. Before kami's temple, he did not have what it takes to be the tenkaichi. Kami explains that to him when he told him that Piccolo Jr would be training for the tournament and be stronger than Piccolo Daimao was before. After this training, even kami during the fight vs Piccolo Jr, acknowledged that it was not possible for Son Gokuh to win. And ultimately he did.

Why do you insist on explaining every single detail instead of the important points? You act as though I've never seen the series or read the manga. The training at most was similar. There's nothing that says he had to learn the same lesson from Whis. Whis and Beerus's training is a more sophisticated application of what he learned prior, but not the same thing. You drew inferences from vague statements.

And I didn't say sensing ki was the whole of his training. Is that unclear?

In any event, I think we've said all there is on this topic.

[Mago_Gosora]

There's nothing that says he had to learn the same lesson from Whis.

And that is my problem with it. There's no need for it. He didn't have to learn the same lesson over again, so why did they even do it at all is my question. Well, other than Toriyama forgetting he'd done it already. But that's aside the point of why....

[Bardo117]

Here is an unpopular opinion that I figure is absolutely truthful and that I've held for the last ten years here: Just because it was the original version, doesn't make it better. Just because it was in Japanese first, doesn't make it 'the way it was meant to be seen' nor does it mean it is the best. Far from it.

This entire websites existence is based off of this moronic concept.

[ABED]

Here is an unpopular opinion that I figure is absolutely truthful and that I've held for the last ten years here: Just because it was the original version, doesn't make it better. Just because it was in Japanese first, doesn't make it 'the way it was meant to be seen' nor does it mean it is the best. Far from it.

This entire websites existence is based off of this moronic concept.

Whether it's better is often a matter of opinion, but the original is in fact the way it was meant to be seen. I don't know what it means to say otherwise.

[MasenkoHA]

: Just because it was the original version, doesn't make it better.

This is a straw man argument. Most people don’t believe its better simply because it is the original version they believe its better because they think its better.

And while I haven’t seen any of the international dubs the Funimation dubs pre-Kai are terrible. And I don’t mean terrible in that they stray from the Japanese version. I mean from the music to the dialog to the acting is terrible.

I fully concede something like the Spanish dub could have easily surprassed the Japanese version.

Just because it was in Japanese first, doesn't make it 'the way it was meant to be seen' nor does it mean it is the best. Far from it.

But the Japanese version is better than the English version

This entire websites existence is based off of this moronic concept.

That seems entirely unnecessarily antagonistic. Why are you even here?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yeah. You are free to do and think as you wish Bardo, but you are bein unnecesarily antagonistic.

[Bardo117]

I love this forum and that's why I've been here for so long lol didn't mean to me antagonistic. Poor choice of words

[8000 Saiyan]

Evidently, Nadolny was told by the voice director to make Gohan (at least “teen” Gohan) sound like Clint Eastwood.

Which gives some insight into the shitty voice direction I suppose.

Interesting, where'd you hear/read that?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h6t2KIC0UT4

That has to be one of the most baffling voice direction decisions of all time.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Super Dragonball Heroes, in most of its variations, is better than GT, Super and all films in this decade.

[Scsigs]

Super Dragonball Heroes, in most of its variations, is better than GT, Super and all films in this decade.

I mean, as a terribly-balanced 5-10 minute advertisement for the video game, it serves its purpose as an OVA series not meant to be taken seriously outside of being said advertisement, it probably serves its purpose better than most everything you just listed.

[SaintEvolution]

Super Dragonball Heroes, in most of its variations, is better than GT, Super and all films in this decade.

I mean, as a terribly-balanced 5-10 minute advertisement for the video game, it serves its purpose as an OVA series not meant to be taken seriously outside of being said advertisement, it probably serves its purpose better than most everything you just listed.

With exception of Battle of Gods and DBS Broly, I agree with your statement.

[Scsigs]

Super Dragonball Heroes, in most of its variations, is better than GT, Super and all films in this decade.

I mean, as a terribly-balanced 5-10 minute advertisement for the video game, it serves its purpose as an OVA series not meant to be taken seriously outside of being said advertisement, it probably serves its purpose better than most everything you just listed.

With exception of Battle of Gods and DBS Broly, I agree with your statement.

And I was being sarcastic! Though at least it having terrible power scaling, the pacing being too fast because each episode is short, the stories not being fleshed out, & the animation only being serviceable is at least a consistent element of it, so your expectations are set.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Super Dragonball Heroes, in most of its variations, is better than GT, Super and all films in this decade.

I mean, as a terribly-balanced 5-10 minute advertisement for the video game, it serves its purpose as an OVA series not meant to be taken seriously outside of being said advertisement, it probably serves its purpose better than most everything you just listed.

With exception of Battle of Gods and DBS Broly, I agree with your statement.

My essential problem with DB, post-Buu is that, while having Goku back is great, his insane stupidity came back, and I don't appreciate it because he wasn't as silly since the beginning of DBZ, with the highlight being not having kissed, ever, which is also contradictory among other things. And, most of all, it's almost always about him AND ONLY HIM. Granted, this problem was far more obvious in GT, where even Vegeta got the shaft as a character, but still, the reason I appreciate the Piccoro, Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell sagas is that there's some variety in its cast and character interactions that I greatly appreciated. They gave the stories much needed depth and richness in storytelling, and made the escalation more relative and palpable. Also, not seeing Goku all the time made his actual appearences the sweeter and all the more significant and important.

At least with Heroes, while those problems are all there still, there's still some dexterity and plot ingenuity, exploring the Demon Realm mentioned by Kaioshin, and even show an actual God of Time (even though its actually a Kaioshin, but I don't mind) and a Time Patroll, which is way better as far as plots go than anything after Battle of Gods - and I actually like Zamasu and his backstory as a villain. But that's the other thing - the ideas behind the plots were nice, but they weren't explored as far and as well as they might've under other circumstances.

Oh, well. That's just me, I guess. And I do like Broly a lot, even though it was plot-thin, relatively

[Grimlock]

Oh, well. That's just me, I guess.

Definitely not just you. I have the exact same problem with modern Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

My essential problem with DB, post-Buu is that, while having Goku back is great, his insane stupidity came back, and I don't appreciate it because he wasn't as silly since the beginning of DBZ, with the highlight being not having kissed, ever, which is also contradictory among other things. And, most of all, it's almost always about him AND ONLY HIM. Granted, this problem was far more obvious in GT, where even Vegeta got the shaft as a character, but still, the reason I appreciate the Piccoro, Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell sagas is that there's some variety in its cast and character interactions that I greatly appreciated. They gave the stories much needed depth and richness in storytelling, and made the escalation more relative and palpable. Also, not seeing Goku all the time made his actual appearences the sweeter and all the more significant and important.

Damn near everyone who has an issue with the story focusing almost all around Goku NEVER bring up DB. They just talk about every subsequent series. Which Piccolo arc are you talking about? Doesn't matter, both revolved around Goku

Goku isn't a special attraction, nor should he be. He's the main character. One of my biggest issues with DBZ is that it constantly went to the well by taking Goku out at the beginning of the arc and having him come back later to save the day. Even in the Cell arc, Gohan was just the gun. Goku was the one aiming it and pulling the trigger.

Here's an unpopular opinion: Goku should've gotten even more of the spotlight in DBZ.

[The Great Saiyaman]

I actually liked when Goku was out of the action, especially during the Cell saga, where there was some tension (such that there could be one) about Gokus life and such. And again, it was great because other characters got to be spotlighted, like Krillin, Tien, Vegeta and his ego, Trunks and Piccoro. Not only did I mind this, but I actually understand the reasoning behind it every time I rewatch it, and it's also the reason why the Super arc plotting don't quite work beyond the battles and the basic characterization of the antagonists. Simply put, Goku is too one-dimensional to carry an arc for a significant period of time, and I am not saying this out of malice or any such foul reasoning. It also helps build excitement and tension, just like when Luffys fighting Katakuri while the rest of the Straw Hat crew are having their own fight.

To be even more specific to my example, and to perhaps add another unpopular opinion, I think Vegetas role in BOG should've been rightly filled by Piccoro, since a)Piccoro and Kaio-same knew each other, b)Vegeta and Kaio-same DIDN'T, and more importantly, c)Piccoro actually was partly a Kami, and thus more likely to have met the said God of Destruction than, well, Vegeta.

[ABED]

If the only way to give other characters focus is to take the main character out of action, then the story isn't that interesting because the characters aren't that interesting. There are times when taking the main character out of action can help build tension, but if you use that device too often, it loses it's punch. The Freeza arc does it TWICE! The first time they did it to great effect because Kuririn and Gohan and even Bulma were given something to do other than just wait around for Goku to show up. They carried the story of finding the DB's. The second time, everyone was just waiting for Goku to show up before the real battle began.

Goku is too one-dimensional to carry an arc for a significant period of time

Dragon Ball says otherwise.

Kami may have met Beerus, okay... that means nothing other than a little bit of retconned history.

[The Great Saiyaman]

If the only way to give other characters focus is to take the main character out of action, then the story isn't that interesting because the characters aren't that interesting.

Usually it's the other way around. This happens quite regularly in shonen, especially in One Piece which I've just mentioned.

There are times when taking the main character out of action can help build tension, but if you use that device too often, it loses it's punch. The Freeza arc does it TWICE! The first time they did it to great effect because Kuririn and Gohan and even Bulma were given something to do other than just wait around for Goku to show up. They carried the story of finding the DB's. The second time, everyone was just waiting for Goku to show up before the real battle began.

They're not waiting for Goku, they're explicitly spending their time trying to use the Dragon Balls to bring back their friends, all while trying not to be found by Freeza, AND also trying to do so without being found out by Vegeta, who wants to use them for him immortality wish.

Dragon Ball says otherwise.

... The same DB that had him out of action during the arcs we're discussing. Okay.

[ABED]

It's not the other way around. Even if a character lacks screen time, the interesting ones are still interesting, just underutilized. It's about quality of screen time, not quantity.

They're not waiting for Goku, they're explicitly spending their time trying to use the Dragon Balls to bring back their friends, all while trying not to be found by Freeza, AND also trying to do so without being found out by Vegeta, who wants to use them for him immortality wish.

I know, that was my point. The reason the first part of the Freeza arc is far better than the latter half is because the other characters are active. In most of the cases when Goku is taken out of action, it's a lot of buying time until he arrives.

The same DB that had him out of action during the arcs we're discussing. Okay.

Not during the 23rd TB. I'm talking about the very first arc through when he won the Tenkaichi Tournament. I'm drawing the distinction because far too many people don't seem to take the first third of the manga into consideration when criticizing Goku being in the spotlight.

[Scsigs]

Simply put, Goku is too one-dimensional to carry an arc for a significant period of time, and I am not saying this out of malice or any such foul reasoning.

I disagree. When Goku's written right, he's one of the best characters in the show. The original Dragon Ball had several arcs where Goku was the only main character (like the Red Ribbon Army & the Piccolo Daimao arcs) & I think they worked really well. It helps that Toriyama put in a bunch of secondary characters to bounce off of Goku's personality. Don't get me wrong, Dragon Ball is at its narrative best with an ensemble cast, since there's lots of different personalities to bounce off one another & there's a LOT of narrative potential with said personalities.
The problem is Goku around the Cell Saga starts to become the biggest idiot hero in the history of Shonen manga & anime because Toriyama would rather subvert expectations rather than continue a story with a good degree of sense. He slowly changed Goku's personality over the last several arcs of the original manga because he didn't like how Toei "changed" him (in reality, they were actually just amping up Goku's inherent hero traits, since he's been shown to always do the right thing & want to help out his friends). Then you have Toei's writing staff for Super having 2 Goku's; one that's more similar to Team Four Star's Goku, only without the hidden depths they sprinkle in & out as well as the consistency of maintaining that characterization, then a more serious Goku that's more competent & more like how he was in the last 2 arcs of Z.
This is why when Toriyama's actually in charge of the writing of the scripts & actually overseeing the production of the media, Goku's a lot more consistent with how he was at the end of Z. Battle of Gods, Res F, & Super: Broly all have a consistent characterization for Goku. The writing of Super never does because the showrunners & episode writers never have the finesse required to write Goku's character that Toriyama does. That's why he seems one dimensional. He doesn't have a lot of depth when written by anyone but Toriyama. Granted, his base character traits are extremely simple & he's a simpleton, but so is Luffy from One Piece & I never find that character to be nearly as bad as Goku in Super. I mean, compare him in the Super versions of the movie plots & the movies. Pretty night & day in the changed or additional stuff as opposed to the way the movies played the events.