Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
NewKakarot
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by NewKakarot » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:30 pm

PremiumSalt wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:24 pm
I have to be brutally honest, I think the packaging on the Z Dragon Boxes looks terrible. I don't like the art, the yellow is a bit obnoxious, and the logo looks ugly to me.
I don't mind the art on them, but what really annoys me about them is the cases for the DVDs. The printing on them chips away easily (which exposes the foil paper), so you have to be careful with them. Would've been better if it were just glossy or matted instead of metallic.

Dragon Ball Ireland
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1651
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Kildare, Ireland

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:29 am

Dragon Ball > Marvel

And before anyone asks, no this is not about power scaling but rather the stories and characterization.
Selling
- Arrival DVD single
- Betrayal DVD single

Looking For
- Showdown DVD single
- Madman Level 1.1

If interested PM with offers

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:40 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:29 am
Dragon Ball > Marvel

And before anyone asks, no this is not about power scaling but rather the stories and characterization.
I would imagine most people agree considering this is a forum for hardcore DB fans. I certainly agree with this.
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:54 pm
PFM18 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:29 am
Shaddy wrote:Vegeta is a little different. I don't agree with the people that say he shouldn't be Goku's rival or shouldn't even be fighting. I think in general he's mostly funneled his surpassing Goku and drive for self-improvement in a more constructive direction, he hasn't just reverted to his Cell era self like a lot of people say. e.
Well, that's exactly it. The way he approaches the rivalry is completely different. It is a much more productive way, and it borders on being a friendly rivalry. It certainly doesn't consume Vegeta's entire life and it is clear that Vegeta has other priorities in his life unlike his Cell Saga self. People that think he regressed to his early Cell-arc self are just confused.

And, I can't emphasize this enough, the last words in the manga are literally "I will surpass you one day, Kakarot!" So this idea that Vegeta should have no desire to surpass Goku whatsoever is just patently untrue. And no, it doesn't fucking matter that this is exclusive to the Kanzenban. Toriyama still wrote it in his manga.
True that. Admitting someone is better than you doesn't mean that you should give up trying to be better than that person. I always thought Vegeta's speech in the Buu arc was to simply show that he doesn't hate Goku anymore, not that he was gonna give up on his goal in life to be the greatest fighter ever. There's was no implication for that what-so ever.
I actually did interpret it as Vegeta giving up on surpassing Goku when I originally saw it, and that is why I hated the speech so much. However, after looking at it with the context of the EoZ dialogue, I realized I had misinterpreted it at first. Luckily, I am one that can admit when I have misinterpreted something.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:12 pm

I don't think it's merely admitting he doesn't hate Goku. It's deeper than that. It's Vegeta admitting outloud and to himself that Goku is better than him, but admitting it is no longer an afront to his very being, he's just acknowledging someone being a superior fighter. Nothing in this epiphany suggests that he has given up on trying to surpass him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1465
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:46 pm

Kamin and Oren are one of the the best (if not the best) villains we got since original anime run and the first interesting antagonists since Towa and Beerus (arguably Moro could appear here with them) even though they are not much original themselves as they are kinda Baby version of 17&18, but they are totally dope. Too bad SDBH anime can't show their full potential even though Core Area saga is already so much better executed than Prison Planet arc.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:36 pm

I think the first half of the Red Ribbon Army arc shouldn't have been written. It really slowed down the pacing after the 21st Tenkaichi arc and only picked up once Goku goes to Korin's tower and confronts Tao. When I last rewatched DB I decided to skip this part (Episodes 29-57) to see how the story would feel without it and it felt very natural. I would argue going from the 21st Tenkaichi to the 2nd part of the RRA feels more natural and fitting than watching the entire arc. The problem for me is that the 1st part of the arc just doesn't go anywhere or have an impact on the overall story of the original manga. I don't know how popular of an opinion this will be but for me personally, skipping this part not only improved the arc, it improved the original DB as a whole.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:44 pm

sintzu wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:36 pm
I think the first half of the Red Ribbon Army arc shouldn't have been written. It really slowed down the pacing after the 21st Tenkaichi arc and only picked up once Goku goes to Korin's tower and confronts Tao. When I last rewatched DB I decided to skip this part (Episodes 29-57) to see how the story would feel without it and it felt very natural. I would argue going from the 21st Tenkaichi to the 2nd part of the RRA feels more natural and fitting than watching the entire arc. The problem for me is that the 1st part of the arc just doesn't go anywhere or have an impact on the overall story of the original manga. I don't know how popular of an opinion this will be but for me personally, skipping this part not only improved the arc, it improved the original DB as a whole.
But they aren't the same story. The 21st TB has its own climax and why would you start off the RRA story by going Mach 3? When you say it doesn't go anywhere, what exactly does that mean? Goku's collecting the DB's in hopes of finding his grandfather's. Why would you skip all that and go straight to Tao Pai Pai? There are many reasons that doesn't work, not the least of which is that it would be a hell of a coincidence that the first place he goes has the DB he's searching for.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:47 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:44 pm
But they aren't the same story. The 21st TB has its own climax.
Pilaf-Buu is one story divided into 10 arcs. If I had to pick one part where things slow down (for me personally), it would be the 1st half of the RRA arc.
why would you start off the RRA story by going Mach 3?
What ?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:53 pm

sintzu wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:47 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:44 pm
But they aren't the same story. The 21st TB has its own climax.
Pilaf-Buu is one story divided into 10 arcs. If I had to pick one part where things slow down (for me personally), it would be the 1st half of the RRA arc.
why would you start off the RRA story by going Mach 3?
What ?
Even if we go with "it's all one story", stories still have different speeds for difference sequences. Some parts slow down, but that's not bad writing. Sometimes a story need a breather.

Mach 3, as in going incredibly fast from the start. That in contrast to calming things down after one climax and allowing the next story to pick up steam as it goes.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:02 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:53 pm
Even if we go with "it's all one story", stories still have different speeds for difference sequences. Some parts slow down, but that's not bad writing. Sometimes a story need a breather.

Mach 3, as in going incredibly fast from the start. That in contrast to calming things down after one climax and allowing the next story to pick up steam as it goes.
Your points aren't wrong but like I said, it just doesn't work for me.

I'm not the only one who has issues with that part of the story, Toriyama does as well.

"after that (21st Tenkaichi), you returned to the adventure format with the Red Ribbon Army."

"I had Arale-chan make an appearance, and made things comical, and it felt like a struggle. But in the end, I couldn’t even satisfy myself, so I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better."

I know the author's opinions should impact yours or anyone else but I think it's interesting that even the person who wrote it wasn't the biggest fan of how it turned out.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:04 pm

He wasn't talking about the pacing. He was talking about the genre and tone of that arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:10 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:12 pm
I don't think it's merely admitting he doesn't hate Goku. It's deeper than that. It's Vegeta admitting outloud and to himself that Goku is better than him, but admitting it is no longer an afront to his very being, he's just acknowledging someone being a superior fighter. Nothing in this epiphany suggests that he has given up on trying to surpass him.
And yet people still insist that Vegeta still wanting to surpass Goku in Super is character regression on the grounds that he gave up surpassing Goku in that speech during the Buu arc.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:09 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:10 pm

And yet people still insist that Vegeta still wanting to surpass Goku in Super is character regression on the grounds that he gave up surpassing Goku in that speech during the Buu arc.
Those people are either:

A) Just stupid
B) Simply biased folks who want Vegeta out of the spotlight
C) Both
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:43 pm

I have a few:

1. Criticism of the Android/Cell saga is largely overblown and driven by contrarianism (since its the most popular arc in the series for Western fans).

2. Piccolo is overrated, not because he's a bad character (he's awesome) but because much of the praise he gets from the fandom isn't warrant considering what relatively little he actually accomplishes in the series in terms of either character development or usefulness. And much of it (I think) is driven by anti-Saiyan contrarianism.

3. The complaints about Vegeta's so-called "regression" in DBS from much of the fandom is largely bullshit based on a misinterpretation of his speech in the Buu saga and a biased dislike of the character in general.

4. Future Trunks is the franchise's greatest character.

5. Many fans tend to extremely overrate the importance of skill and strategy in the franchise, especially in Early Dragonball.

6. Baby is DB's most underrated villain (and this is coming from someone who doesn't like GT), along with 22nd TB arc Tien.

7. Buu saga Goku (especially in the anime) is the best characterized version of the him ever written.

8. Cabba, Caulifla & Kale are better and more interesting characters than 90% of the original manga's cast.

9. Complaints about power-scaling in the franchise are largely overblown, being often based on personal incredulity and ignored contexts (like characters explicitly holding back).

10. The popular claim that "Early DB had better stoytelling" is mostly bullshit. Nearly all of what came before the 22nd TB arc was objectively worse written than most of Z, the Black arc of Super and the Baby arc of GT. And the best of Early DB (King Piccolo/Ma Jr) falls short of the 1st half of Z (Saiyan/Namek).
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:48 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:29 am
Dragon Ball > Marvel

And before anyone asks, no this is not about power scaling but rather the stories and characterization.
You are in entitled to your opinion but to me this is just so false. There's a handful of Marvel comic stories (and some MCU films) that just completely stomps anything in the DB franchise in terms of storytelling and character writing.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:58 pm

Champa The Destroyer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:21 pm
Jiren imo isnt that bad of a character. Hes definitely not really that good, with his personality being bland for most of his screentime, and his backstory is beyond cliche, but I like the idea and executuon of him acting stoic and staying alone after everyone he cared about before the pride troopers leaving him (mainly because of death, but still) and once his idea of isolating himself from everyone being the best thing to do is unraveled, he acts unhinged and angry, trying to destroy Goku's idea of friendship being beneficial, it backfires, causing him to be defeated by MUI Goku. It takes Toppo's words to get back into the fight, and even then, he loses due to teamwork.

He's by no means a great character, not even close. I just dont agree that he's one of the worst characters in dragon ball history. Imo he's a much better antagonist than peoole like Super 17 or Omega Shenron, or even Boohan and Bootenks.
I agree with this too. Jiren isn't a very good character (I agree with Totally Not Mark's criticisms of him) but he's nowhere near the worst antagonist in the franchise, let alone that awful of a character in general. With better writing, direction & development in the future, Jiren can easily transition into being one of the franchise's best characters, since the potential is there (and its huge).
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:02 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:58 pm
Champa The Destroyer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:21 pm
Jiren imo isnt that bad of a character. Hes definitely not really that good, with his personality being bland for most of his screentime, and his backstory is beyond cliche, but I like the idea and executuon of him acting stoic and staying alone after everyone he cared about before the pride troopers leaving him (mainly because of death, but still) and once his idea of isolating himself from everyone being the best thing to do is unraveled, he acts unhinged and angry, trying to destroy Goku's idea of friendship being beneficial, it backfires, causing him to be defeated by MUI Goku. It takes Toppo's words to get back into the fight, and even then, he loses due to teamwork.

He's by no means a great character, not even close. I just dont agree that he's one of the worst characters in dragon ball history. Imo he's a much better antagonist than peoole like Super 17 or Omega Shenron, or even Boohan and Bootenks.
I agree with this too. Jiren isn't a very good character (I agree with Totally Not Mark's criticisms of him) but he's nowhere near the worst antagonist in the franchise, let alone that awful of a character in general. With better writing, direction & development in the future, Jiren can easily transition into being one of the franchise's best characters, since the potential is there (and its huge).
You could say that about damn near anything - with the right execution it could be great. Potential doesn't pay the bills, so to speak.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:02 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:43 pm
Piccolo is overrated because much of the praise he gets from the fandom isn't warrant considering what relatively little he actually accomplishes.
Piccolo has a cape though. No amount of accomplishments can reach that level of epic.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:04 pm

Piccolo has a cool design, a great history, a terrific arc, and has been a part of some of the best and most significant battles in all of Dragon Ball. That's why.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:06 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:02 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:58 pm
Champa The Destroyer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:21 pm
Jiren imo isnt that bad of a character. Hes definitely not really that good, with his personality being bland for most of his screentime, and his backstory is beyond cliche, but I like the idea and executuon of him acting stoic and staying alone after everyone he cared about before the pride troopers leaving him (mainly because of death, but still) and once his idea of isolating himself from everyone being the best thing to do is unraveled, he acts unhinged and angry, trying to destroy Goku's idea of friendship being beneficial, it backfires, causing him to be defeated by MUI Goku. It takes Toppo's words to get back into the fight, and even then, he loses due to teamwork.

He's by no means a great character, not even close. I just dont agree that he's one of the worst characters in dragon ball history. Imo he's a much better antagonist than peoole like Super 17 or Omega Shenron, or even Boohan and Bootenks.
I agree with this too. Jiren isn't a very good character (I agree with Totally Not Mark's criticisms of him) but he's nowhere near the worst antagonist in the franchise, let alone that awful of a character in general. With better writing, direction & development in the future, Jiren can easily transition into being one of the franchise's best characters, since the potential is there (and its huge).
You could say that about damn near anything - with the right execution it could be great. Potential doesn't pay the bills, so to speak.
Not all ideas & characters have equal potential for quality writing and/or development. Some have way more than others, and some are so bad even in concept that even the greatest writers & directors can't save them.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

Post Reply