Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:09 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:03 pm
Goku didn't take a dive, not using a dangerous power draining form and instead choosing to use his optimal ssj2 form is not taking a dive.
The fight didn't conclude but for the most part Vegeta had the upper hand. If we're going to say Goku was holding back because he didn't use Ssj3 ,then we can also say Vegeta was holding back because he didn't blow himself up to take down Goku. Both characters were holding back aces up their sleeves because they were simply too risky to use, more so in Vegeta's case.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm

The issue I have with it is Goku likes to fight to his limit. He was holding back WAY too much. There was no thrill in a fight he knew he could win, so the idea that Goku fought him for the thrill and put the world in danger falls flat. What thrill is there when Vegeta isn't in his league?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm
The issue I have with it is Goku likes to fight to his limit. He was holding back WAY too much. There was no thrill in a fight he knew he could win, so the idea that Goku fought him for the thrill and put the world in danger falls flat. What thrill is there when Vegeta isn't in his league?
Vegeta was in his league as a Ssj2. Apart from using up all his time on earth, going Ssj3 would've ended the fight in seconds, which wouldn't be fun for someone like Goku.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:41 pm

sintzu wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm
The issue I have with it is Goku likes to fight to his limit. He was holding back WAY too much. There was no thrill in a fight he knew he could win, so the idea that Goku fought him for the thrill and put the world in danger falls flat. What thrill is there when Vegeta isn't in his league?
Vegeta was in his league as a Ssj2. Apart from using up all his time on earth, going Ssj3 would've ended the fight in seconds, which wouldn't be fun for someone like Goku.
There is also the long standing rumor that SSJ3 was made up after the fact and Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 being more or less equals was the original idea.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:46 pm

sintzu wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm
The issue I have with it is Goku likes to fight to his limit. He was holding back WAY too much. There was no thrill in a fight he knew he could win, so the idea that Goku fought him for the thrill and put the world in danger falls flat. What thrill is there when Vegeta isn't in his league?
Vegeta was in his league as a Ssj2. Apart from using up all his time on earth, going Ssj3 would've ended the fight in seconds, which wouldn't be fun for someone like Goku.
Yes, when he's holding back his power, Vegeta is in his league. Why would such a fight amuse Goku (especially in such dire circumstances) be fun if he's not fighting to his limit?

There is also the long standing rumor that SSJ3 was made up after the fact and Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 being more or less equals was the original idea.
There's no way that isn't exactly what happened.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:46 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:51 am
You could argue the same for Piccolo. Why would anyone trust him other than Gohan during the Saiyan Arc? As far as the vast majority of the cast goes Piccolo is still a villain by the time the Saiyans arrive.
Not really. Let's compare the two during the same time period.

By the time Nappa and Vegeta have arrived, Piccolo has already teamed up with Goku once without screwing anyone over. Then he all but leads the charge against the Saiyans without once backsliding into evil or selfish concerns, he goes to heaven, travels for months with three members of that friend group, trains with a god, and fights against Freeza, all without doing anything to make anyone question his loyalty. I take examples up to this point in the story because that's the first time he'd be in a position to have to coexist after an unbroken string of events.

Compare Vegeta in the same time period. He wreaks havoc on Earth and is driven off swearing to come back to kill them. He slaughters a few dozen peaceful villagers, including children. He disembowels somebody right in front of them, steals from them, assaults two of them. And even after being brought back to life he freely and proudly tells the relatives of his victims that he did, in fact, murder them, and they won't be coming back. Yes, like Piccolo they ally with him out of necessity, but the surrounding contextual actions are totally different.

Just as importantly, moving past that point, Piccolo is smart enough not to fall victim to his own enormous ego. Therefore, he proves his trustworthiness by not screwing over his new allies. Vegeta absolutely cannot say the same
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:59 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:41 pm
There is also the long standing rumor that SSJ3 was made up after the fact and Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 being more or less equals was the original idea.
Toriyama has said in the past that he didn't plan things out and generally came up with ideas as the story went along. Fans have taken that and twisted it to Toriyama saying he had no idea about anything and everything we saw was made up as he went along, including Ssj3. It seems like not many fans have read his 2014 interview where he said he was thinking about the Namek arc while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi arc. That was a whole 2 arcs before it actually happened. I believe Toriyama knew about Ssj3 awhile before Goku and Vegeta's fight, just as he probably knew about other major plot points ahead of time.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:07 pm

Agreed, and just to add something, everyone was rightfully suspicious of Piccolo in the Saiyan arc, but any suspicion should rightfully be laid to rest once Piccolo gives his life for Gohan. From the outside, it could be said that everything Piccolo did from teaming up with Goku, training Gohan, to leading the fight against the Saiyans was Piccolo being pragmatic. However, giving his life to protect his friend and an innocent child gains him nothing materially.
I believe Toriyama knew about Ssj3 awhile before Goku and Vegeta's fight, just as he probably knew about other major plot points ahead of time.
That's pure conjecture. He generally didn't plan, and while there were times when he did, I don't think this was one of them. Toriyama has constantly changed his style over the course of the manga - from his art style, plot structure, to even how much he plans ahead. With the Saiyan arc, there were clearly seeds being planted ahead of time. There were no such seeds planted with SSJ3 and it actively contradicts Goku's character. He doesn't take joy in fighting weaker opponents. Sure, there's the odd good natured fight against friends, like his fight against Kuririn, but the fight against Majin Vegeta wasn't good natured. He had bigger fish to fry.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Teclo » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:48 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:07 pm
I believe Toriyama knew about Ssj3 awhile before Goku and Vegeta's fight, just as he probably knew about other major plot points ahead of time.
That's pure conjecture. He generally didn't plan, and while there were times when he did, I don't think this was one of them. Toriyama has constantly changed his style over the course of the manga - from his art style, plot structure, to even how much he plans ahead. With the Saiyan arc, there were clearly seeds being planted ahead of time. There were no such seeds planted with SSJ3 and it actively contradicts Goku's character. He doesn't take joy in fighting weaker opponents. Sure, there's the odd good natured fight against friends, like his fight against Kuririn, but the fight against Majin Vegeta wasn't good natured. He had bigger fish to fry.
As for the art style thing, EVERY artist's style changes the more they draw or paint or whatever. That's a standard thing, not a Toriyama thing. The same goes for the ability to plot properly amongst authors. The planning ahead part is hard to pin down with him. As you alluded to, the saiyains mention Frieza, and Vegeta and Nappa are also foreshadowed before they show up on Earth. There's also obviously a long lead-in to Buu appearing. The idea of a SSJ is mentioned before it actually happens.

But then DB is also riddled with stuff that Toriyama obviously thought up and just dropped in without any prelude, as well as him thinking "ah whatever" to things, like Goten and Trunks being able to go SSJ at a very young age without any interesting narrative leading to it. And things like Videl learning to fly in a few days despite it supposedly taking amazing ki control, being something it took the others years to learn. Yet I think common sense dictates that once he thought of SSJ2, it would stand to reason that the idea of a further power-up for SSJ would at least have occurred to him.

I do see the point of it being out of character for Goku to intentionally hold back, but then at the same time he ALWAYS intentionally holds back ever since Kaioken and SSJ, he usually starts out fighting normally, then eventually plays the "this isn't even my final form" card. If he never holds back as a rule, why doesn't he start every fight in SSJ post-Namek? Why doesn't he just Genki-dama everyone right away? I also see it as a kind of lane change for the reasoning behind it; it was a kind of moral thing. Vegeta turned to evil (and arguably uncharacteristically cheaty) means to get that power-up. He didn't get it through training and willpower like he normally did, he effectively put a cheat code in. In a Aesop's fable kind of way, he was punished for that by his new power being meaningless in the face of the hero's new power-up. Cheaters don't prosper and all that. That's how I read it when I first saw it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 pm

My point wasn't about whether it was a unique aspect

Not one damn thing you pointed to explains why the hell Goku would intentionally hold back given the circumstances to that extent. Everything you're pointing at as a counterargument is grasping at straws or flat out wrong and often misses what Toriyama was going for. Goku doesn't use the Genki Dama because it's not an opener and it leaves him vulnerable. Goku held back with the Kaio-ken because it puts strain on his body.
But then DB is also riddled with stuff that Toriyama obviously thought up and just dropped in without any prelude
Not everything needs a set up.

A change in structure and style isn't the same as a change in characterization. One is natural, the other needs explanation.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:12 pm

here 2 opinions one is unpopular and the other I do not know .. but I guess maybe
the change in the personality of videl at present I think it was the most appropriate I do not think it was wasted gave everything a common human could do .... and I think the explanation was adequate she only behaved rough and practiced martial arts because she was the daughter of mr satan she had to follow the legacy but now that she knows the truth she can dedicate herself to having a life as a normal girl.

another opinion is about chichi although I liked his design at the beginning although her reason for fighting was silly, but I thought it was a nice character however since he started dbz she became a totally irrelevant character which would not have to be something totally bad but also her relationship with goku is limited to just make a gag, so ...some else does not believe that that is disappointing?
is the wife of the protagonist however I think that vegeta has a better wife,. bulma that is always relevant supporting vegeta and her friends, another case is trunks and mai that even in zamasu arc leaned on the battle, also well put as an example other protagonists shonen but I think all understand the idea.

and I think it's a little sad that goku does not have that

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:51 pm

It's not as though Toriyama made a prominent character into a wife and then made her less prominent. Chichi was never a main character and not even a supporting character until she married Goku. Bulma on the other hand was always a main character.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:24 pm

yeah, honestly my main issue with ChiChi is how when you think about it, so much of the series much be horrifying from her perspective. like obviously the doesn't dwell on it and makes her so over the top that it's played for comedy and never seriously, but still,,,,things like goku being dead for 7 years, goku and gohan being gone for a year, and then immediately traveling too another planet, just makes me feel bad for her.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Teclo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:45 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 pm
My point wasn't about whether it was a unique aspect

Not one damn thing you pointed to explains why the hell Goku would intentionally hold back given the circumstances to that extent. Everything you're pointing at as a counterargument is grasping at straws or flat out wrong and often misses what Toriyama was going for. Goku doesn't use the Genki Dama because it's not an opener and it leaves him vulnerable. Goku held back with the Kaio-ken because it puts strain on his body.
But then DB is also riddled with stuff that Toriyama obviously thought up and just dropped in without any prelude
Not everything needs a set up.

A change in structure and style isn't the same as a change in characterization. One is natural, the other needs explanation.
Genki Dama leaves him vulnerable whenever he does it. He could start every fight charging it up while others keep the enemy occupied, rather than doing things that aren't going to work for the whole fight before eventually doing that anyway. And he could start every fight in at least SSJ but he doesn't normally, he starts out as weak as he can be, then typically works up through more powerful transformations and techniques. It's a battle shounen trope, almost everyone does it in all similar series. Goku and Piccolo also spend so much of their time suppressing their abilities with weighted training clothes and only take them off after a while fighting in an intentionally nerfed state.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:58 pm

Goku isn't out to save the world. He's not a superhero. He wants the best one on one fight. He's not going to go with his trump card that leaves him vulnerable, nor is he going to fight with others at his side if he has the choice. It's also a dangerous move with incredible destructive force. Great boxers don't go for the knock out blow at the beginning of the fight.
And he could start every fight in at least SSJ but he doesn't normally,
That's just not true.
Goku and Piccolo also spend so much of their time suppressing their abilities with weighted training clothes and only take them off after a while fighting in an intentionally nerfed state.
Goku and Piccolo were around the same level, so it's not the same situation against Vegeta. They immediately took them off in the fight against Raditz. Please don't use dumb TVTropes terms like "nerfed". Goku was fighting against a FAR weaker opponent at a time when he knew he needed to put as quick an end as possible. Every blow Vegeta landed brought Buu one step closer to resurrection.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:17 am

i don't think nerfed is a tvtropes thing, i'm decently sure it comes from gaming stuff. and like, it doesn't matter anyways if it is.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:01 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:17 am
i don't think nerfed is a tvtropes thing, i'm decently sure it comes from gaming stuff. and like, it doesn't matter anyways if it is.
Regardless, it's a dumb term. It's even worse in this context because it doesn't even apply. Goku and Piccolo weren't nerfed nor in an "intentionally nerfed stated", they were pacing themselves.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:58 pm
Goku was fighting against a FAR weaker opponent at a time when he knew he needed to put as quick an end as possible. Every blow Vegeta landed brought Buu one step closer to resurrection.
This is exactly why it seems like SSJ3 was made up after the fact. Goku was fighting his hardest to stop Majin Vegeta because they were for all intents and purposes equals. Goku knew what was at stake but still held back? Even Goku isn't that stupid.

What most likely happened was Toriyama wrote it as though they were equals, then got to the SSJ3 moment and was like "wouldn't this be cool?" without thinking about the entire story that just happened.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:45 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:58 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:58 pm
Goku was fighting against a FAR weaker opponent at a time when he knew he needed to put as quick an end as possible. Every blow Vegeta landed brought Buu one step closer to resurrection.
This is exactly why it seems like SSJ3 was made up after the fact. Goku was fighting his hardest to stop Majin Vegeta because they were for all intents and purposes equals. Goku knew what was at stake but still held back? Even Goku isn't that stupid.

What most likely happened was Toriyama wrote it as though they were equals, then got to the SSJ3 moment and was like "wouldn't this be cool?" without thinking about the entire story that just happened.
Goku says in Kai that both he and Vegeta underestimated how powerful Buu would be, so although he wanted to end the fight, he didn't think it going on for long would result in the end of the world.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:56 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:58 pm
This is exactly why it seems like SSJ3 was made up after the fact. Goku was fighting his hardest to stop Majin Vegeta because they were for all intents and purposes equals. Goku knew what was at stake but still held back? Even Goku isn't that stupid.

What most likely happened was Toriyama wrote it as though they were equals, then got to the SSJ3 moment and was like "wouldn't this be cool?" without thinking about the entire story that just happened.
From what I've heard & seen, SS3 was DEFINITELY a retcon, but it wasn't because it's what Toriyama would've thought was cool, though the arc isn't devoid of just that. Apparently, Toriyama wanted to use SS2, but was informed that he'd already used it, so he made up SS3 for it & had to deal with it as a retcon, which is why Vegeta calls Goku out on not using it during their fight & Goku looks like a douchebag for holding back.
sintzu wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:45 pm
Goku says in Kai that both he and Vegeta underestimated how powerful Buu would be, so although he wanted to end the fight, he didn't think it going on for long would result in the end of the world.
Except it's a retcon, but for everything he did, dealing with Vegeta quickly would've sent less power to Buu than how long their fight was.
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