Unpopular DB opinions

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It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:53 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:35 am
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:The climax of the first dragon ball hunt is also all strategy. From Oolong cheating Pilaf out of a wish to Yamcha holding Oozaru Goku in place long enough for Puar to cut off his tail. While I do still think that overall power battle is the deciding factor in who wins throughout DB, there was a lot of inventiveness to the early fights.
Neither of those were “all strategy” but characters flying by the seat of their pants.
I'm not going to get into the nuances of strategy vs tactics vs improvisation. The characters formulated a plan, carried it out, and won by thinking through the problem in front of them. That's eough for me
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:35 am
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:The climax of the first dragon ball hunt is also all strategy. From Oolong cheating Pilaf out of a wish to Yamcha holding Oozaru Goku in place long enough for Puar to cut off his tail. While I do still think that overall power battle is the deciding factor in who wins throughout DB, there was a lot of inventiveness to the early fights.
Neither of those were “all strategy” but characters flying by the seat of their pants.
It's a very quick plan, but still a plan.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:02 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:25 am
Can’t tell if you’re agreeing with or not man.
I'm disagreeing with you.
You misunderstand the point I was trying to make then, I wasnt implying that there wasnt any strategy at all, I was countering the assertion that Pre-Z's battles seem to hold more thought or strategy put into them tournament or otherwise, as opposed to anything post Raditz's arrival.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:18 pm

Fair enough, though I do think it's a fair statement to say the strategies were more interesting.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:47 pm

Any examples? the Roshi thing when he and Goku double clashed to end the 21st tournament is cool if it was predetermined by Roshi himself instead of him coming to that conclusion after the fact, because that would equate to nothing more but dumb luck as opposed to him bating Goku into a double jump kick because he knew his legs were longer and thus hit first and have more impact.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:59 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:47 pm
Any examples? the Roshi thing when he and Goku double clashed to end the 21st tournament is cool if it was predetermined by Roshi himself instead of him coming to that conclusion after the fact, because that would equate to nothing more but dumb luck as opposed to him bating Goku into a double jump kick because he knew his legs were longer and thus hit first and have more impact.
He did bait Goku into it, though. He doesn't explain it until afterwards but thinks to himself about their differences in body types before going into the kick.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:19 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:59 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:47 pm
Any examples? the Roshi thing when he and Goku double clashed to end the 21st tournament is cool if it was predetermined by Roshi himself instead of him coming to that conclusion after the fact, because that would equate to nothing more but dumb luck as opposed to him bating Goku into a double jump kick because he knew his legs were longer and thus hit first and have more impact.
He did bait Goku into it, though. He doesn't explain it until afterwards but thinks to himself about their differences in body types before going into the kick.
Gotcha.. Its been a while since I've seen the fight in full. I knew he explained what happened but i was remembering it as him just drawing the conclusion after the fact.

That's still only one example, granted i wouldn't put that over anything in the later half of the series, its still cool though especially in the Mentor/ Student role that he and Goku were in at the time so it fits perfectly.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:50 pm

As much as people say Boo arc is terrible due to its changes as the story progresses I think it still feels pretty organic to me, instead of a arc that would have this one antagonist that would be defeated by this only protagonist all going straight.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:14 pm

Noah wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:50 pm
As much as people say Boo arc is terrible due to its changes as the story progresses I think it still feels pretty organic to me, instead of a arc that would have this one antagonist that would be defeated by this only protagonist all going straight.
I enjoy it more than I used to but it's not organic. It's clear Toriyama wanted to push the next generation to the front and changed his mind.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:13 pm

Well, its more organic than the CELL ARC. BOOM!
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:15 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:13 pm
Well, its more organic than the CELL ARC. BOOM!
Not saying I necessarily disagree, but why do you say that?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm

...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:56 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm
...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
I honestly thought you were making a joke that it's less organic because it's all... Artificial.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:03 pm

Noah wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:50 pm
As much as people say Boo arc is terrible due to its changes as the story progresses, I think it still feels pretty organic to me instead of an arc that would have this one antagonist that would be defeated by this only protagonist all going straight.
When has the next antagonist of a DB arc EVER been defeated by the previous villain going straight? Or did you word that poorly?

As for the Buu Saga, the majority of shit that happens in that arc is NOT organic after Majin Buu appears for the first time. Up until then, it was pretty good. Light-hearted fun sprinkled in with some seriousness that was shaping up to be a pretty good final arc. However, with Toriyama, he clearly had TOO MANY ideas for what he wanted to do & his writing style didn't lend too well to this. His spontaneity & penchant for thinking on his feet didn't show up well. Probably because he was clearly burnt out. After Buu himself shows up, things slowly begin happening just because. Because Toriyama thought they were cool? Partly. Partly because he had too many ideas? Yep. Partly just because? Oh yeah.

You ever hear the creators of South Park describe the perfect direction of storytelling? It's usually connecting plot points with "because" & "therefore", maybe some "So's" as well, to create a clear narrative through-line from beginning to end of a successful plot &, if you don't do that, the audience will notice & feel something's off about the story (which, say what you want about South Park, they're right about storytelling). Here's how the Saiyan Saga evolves its plot as it goes.
The arc isn't perfect, but it's simple & straight forward storytelling with a lot of good cause to effect.

However, the Buu Saga is a different beast altogether. On top of having bad storytelling that doesn't have a lot of cause to effect, it has a LOT of mood whiplash at times.
That shit is exhausting. Not only is it too long & dense with material, which, normally, I don't mind for a serialized narrative, but it's too much for a series like this & not conducive to Toriyama's writing style of constant procrastination on top of his obvious burnout & want to end the series. The arc is riddled with plotholes, inconsistencies, serious leaps in logic, shit that's introduced & dropped on a whim, constant subversion of expectations (when you do that, it either needs to be for comedy, cool, or not done very often so the audience doesn't get tired), & other stuff. The Buu Saga is incredibly flawed & it's no wonder why it's seen as divisive.
Last edited by Scsigs on Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:05 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:56 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm
...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
I honestly thought you were making a joke that it's less organic because it's all... Artificial.
Bless you, Gaffer Tape. :clap:

I don't think you can boil down subversion of expectation down to some set of arbitrary rules, nor do I think the issue of the arc is one of density. Yes, a lot of stuff happened. It's a long arc. The fundamental issues are it's not focused; Toriyama changes his mind midstream and it's very apparent, and it manages to simultaneously be too drawn out and move too damn fast like he was speeding towards the end.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:37 pm

So far the Moro arc is the best thing to come from Super since BoG.
my reasons are
Moro is so far the most enjoyable and well executed villain.Zamasu is the best Super villain conceptually but Moro nails both
Vegeta and Goku are doing new and interesting training methods. I love the fact that Vegeta has headed to Yardrat and Goku training with this new angle like figure it's really cool. However Goku's is less interesting since he has already been training with an angle but still there are new elements to it.
The side characters get to shine in a far more satisfying way then T.O.P If you've read the new chapter, you know what I mean. In early Z and original Dragon Ball I love the "Dragon Team" every incarnation of them. I love the classic "Hold em off until blank" gang it's just so fun. It isn't making others look weak just appreciating the strength of others.

So far I have been thoroughly enjoying the arc as it makes me think of what Super could have been

Also another opinion is SSG should have been the last form in super. I wish Super had no SSB or Ultra Instinct and that Beerus fighting at 60% was still cannon. I wish super was all build up to a rematch between SSG Goku and Beerus with every arc having the Saiyans learn to master the form a bit more. While not visible strength still, I would have preferred it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:05 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:56 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm
...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
I honestly thought you were making a joke that it's less organic because it's all... Artificial.
Bless you, Gaffer Tape. :clap:

I don't think you can boil down subversion of expectation down to some set of arbitrary rules, nor do I think the issue of the arc is one of density. Yes, a lot of stuff happened. It's a long arc. The fundamental issues are it's not focused; Toriyama changes his mind midstream and it's very apparent, and it manages to simultaneously be too drawn out and move too damn fast like he was speeding towards the end.
No blessings for me? I made the joke possible. LOL.

But yeah. God Bless you Gaffer Tape!
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:05 am

Noah wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:50 pm
As much as people say Boo arc is terrible due to its changes as the story progresses I think it still feels pretty organic to me, instead of a arc that would have this one antagonist that would be defeated by this only protagonist all going straight.
The threats follow from one to other pretty easily it's just that when you take a step back there is soooo much going on. The Cell Arc had a similar problem but it also had the benefit of being a time travel story, something that audiences expect to be somewhat convoluted as the alterations to the timeline pile up. Buu Arc on the otherhand has an even more convoluted villain situation with no protagonist to hold all the story together and even more fakeouts. It's an exhausting arc even if it's easy to see how all the pieces fit together.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:23 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:05 am
The threats follow from one to other pretty easily it's just that when you take a step back there is soooo much going on. The Cell Arc had a similar problem but it also had the benefit of being a time travel story, something that audiences expect to be somewhat convoluted as the alterations to the timeline pile up. Buu Arc on the other hand has an even more convoluted villain situation with no protagonist to hold all the story together and even more fakeouts. It's an exhausting arc even if it's easy to see how all the pieces fit together.
There are also gigantic leaps in logic, asspulls, things being introduced quickly & dropped just as quickly, things that were just introduced to force the plot along, invalidating genuinely heartwarming moments very quickly, & changing how the logic of things look as things went along. I explain exactly what here: viewtopic.php?p=1633535#p1633513

It's a shame, since the arc started out really well in its prologue too.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:26 am

The Cell arc has a good sense of progression. We are introduced to the concept and the mere act of someone traveling back through time messes with the timeline and audience expectations. Once we get to Cell, two of the cyborgs that were introduced are necessary for his transformations, and the third one is a wildcard who it turns out was necessary for Gohan to transform.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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