Unpopular DB opinions

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Zeon_Grunt
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:48 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:18 pm
Dragon Ball Minus is the worst additional content ever produced for the franchise.

I don't know how unpopular that opinion is, but, yeah...
Episode of Bardock and Super Dragon Ball Heroes are worse imo. At least Minus can serve the point of seeing what the original author's idea of that story would look like. EoB had absolutely no merit to it, and SDBH is nothing but a nonsensical series of videos to promote a video game.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:04 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:48 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:18 pm
Dragon Ball Minus is the worst additional content ever produced for the franchise.

I don't know how unpopular that opinion is, but, yeah...
Episode of Bardock and Super Dragon Ball Heroes are worse imo. At least Minus can serve the point of seeing what the original author's idea of that story would look like. EoB had absolutely no merit to it, and SDBH is nothing but a nonsensical series of videos to promote a video game.
You can ignore Episode Of Bardock and Super Dragon Ball Heroes. But you can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus for one big reason... it's written and drawn independently by the creator of Dragon Ball.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:56 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:04 pm
You can ignore Episode Of Bardock and Super Dragon Ball Heroes. But you can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus for one big reason... it's written and drawn independently by the creator of Dragon Ball.
You mean like how you "can't" ignore Dragon Ball when watching DBZ?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:04 pm

You can ignore Episode Of Bardock and Super Dragon Ball Heroes. But you can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus for one big reason... it's written and drawn independently by the creator of Dragon Ball.
Here's the thing though...you absolutely can ignore Dragon Ball Minus. For one thing it wasn't written until LONG after the original manga run ended. And it took until Dragon Ball Super Broccoli the Movie for it to make its way to the anime. So if you, for example only cared about Dragon Ball circa 1984-1996 then you have no reason to care about Dragon Ball Minus and can easily ignore it and hold the Bardock TV Special as the definitive portrayal of Bardock's character and Planet Vegeta's last days.

Saying people can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus is like saying people can't ignore all the random factoids crap JK Rowling adds about the Harry Potter novels on twitter when she's bored.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:41 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm
Saying people can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus is like saying people can't ignore all the random factoids crap JK Rowling adds about the Harry Potter novels on twitter when she's bored.
Actually you just gave another reason why Dragon Ball Minus can't be ignored. That unfortunate work isn't a random factoid crap Toriyama added about the Dragon Ball manga on Twitter when he's bored. Dragon Ball Minus was conceived the same way the original run was, on paper by the author himself. Which, translating to Rowling's case, would be her writing a(nother) novel. A good comparison would be Toriyama's interviews, which can be seen as him being bored and going to Twitter to say whatever comes first in his mind. What he says in the interviews could be ignored.

What you said in the first paragraph is a valid reason to ignore it, though.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:50 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:56 pm
You mean like how you "can't" ignore Dragon Ball when watching DBZ?
What is that supposed to mean? :eh:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm
Here's the thing though...you absolutely can ignore Dragon Ball Minus. For one thing it wasn't written until LONG after the original manga run ended. And it took until Dragon Ball Super Broccoli the Movie for it to make its way to the anime. So if you, for example only cared about Dragon Ball circa 1984-1996 then you have no reason to care about Dragon Ball Minus and can easily ignore it and hold the Bardock TV Special as the definitive portrayal of Bardock's character and Planet Vegeta's last days.

Saying people can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus is like saying people can't ignore all the random factoids crap JK Rowling adds about the Harry Potter novels on twitter when she's bored.
Spewing out random shit on a social media platform and writing and drawing a work that is not only officially published worldwide, but is fully animated into segment in a movie that is also written by the creator of the franchise are two WILDLY different scenarios. And it's not even as if Dragon Ball exists in its own vacuum. The chapter itself is (poorly) tied into a work that operates as an official prequel to Dragon Ball itself.

This isn't (unfortunately) like the harmless story revisions Toriyama would provide randomly in interviews in the last 10 years. Toriyama wants you to recognise that he has retconned Goku's backstory and he's not subtle about it at all.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:52 pm

Again you can literally ignore anything to come from Dragon Ball after 1995. It’s. Not. Hard.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:18 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:50 pm
What is that supposed to mean? :eh:
That countless fans of the franchise grew up watching DBZ without having seen DB and it didn't prevent them from being able to enjoy it in the least bit. Likewise, you can ignore Z and end your run of DB after Piccolo's defeat if you were really so inclined (I do this with the filler arcs when rewatching Rurouni Kenshin)

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:33 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:52 pm
Again you can literally ignore anything to come from Dragon Ball after 1995. It’s. Not. Hard.
Not if you have any interest in interacting with your fellow fans of pre-2008 Dragon Ball.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:49 am

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:18 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:50 pm
What is that supposed to mean? :eh:
That countless fans of the franchise grew up watching DBZ without having seen DB and it didn't prevent them from being able to enjoy it in the least bit. Likewise, you can ignore Z and end your run of DB after Piccolo's defeat if you were really so inclined (I do this with the filler arcs when rewatching Rurouni Kenshin)
You can enjoy decent amounts of Dragon Ball Z in a vacuum, but you are fooling yourself if you think you're getting the most out of Dragon Ball's narrative by not needing to take into context what happened prior to the Saiyan arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:08 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:33 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:52 pm
Again you can literally ignore anything to come from Dragon Ball after 1995. It’s. Not. Hard.
Not if you have any interest in interacting with your fellow fans of pre-2008 Dragon Ball.
You don't have to take it into account in order to talk about it. You can still talk about Minus without having it be your default Bardock story.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:04 pm
You can't ignore Dragon Ball Minus for one big reason... it's written and drawn independently by the creator of Dragon Ball. This isn't like the harmless story revisions Toriyama would provide randomly in interviews in the last 10 years. Toriyama wants you to recognize that he has retconned Goku's backstory and he's not subtle about it at all.
As far as I'm concerned, you can ignore anything that wasn't part of the original manga. What Toriyama wants is honestly irrelevant, as what he's doing now wasn't part of the original run. Anything outside an original work (DB or otherwise) is optional, you can take it or leave it. When it comes to Minus, It doesn't exist to me, as it's nothing more than a watered down version of a far superior story.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:49 am
You can enjoy decent amounts of Dragon Ball Z in a vacuum, but you are fooling yourself if you think you're getting the most out of Dragon Ball's narrative by not needing to take into context what happened prior to the Saiyan arc.
You don't have to "get the most" out of the story to still enjoy an anime where complex and mature storytelling and themes take backseat to flashy fights. It's not like Dragon Ball is some super complex, intertwined story that rewards readers/viewers for remembering the last time Roshi or Tien were relevant to the plot.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:22 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:49 am
You can enjoy decent amounts of Dragon Ball Z in a vacuum, but you are fooling yourself if you think you're getting the most out of Dragon Ball's narrative by not needing to take into context what happened prior to the Saiyan arc.
You don't have to "get the most" out of the story to still enjoy an anime where complex and mature storytelling and themes take backseat to flashy fights. It's not like Dragon Ball is some super complex, intertwined story that rewards readers/viewers for remembering the last time Roshi or Tien were relevant to the plot.
I never insinuated that Dragon Ball is a complex or intertwined story. I'm just saying that character and story beats that are the most famous from Dragon Ball Z don't carry a lot of emotional weight when you ignore the foundation that was provided for them in the events that take place before the Saiyan arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:42 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 pm
I never insinuated that Dragon Ball is a complex or intertwined story. I'm just saying that character and story beats that are the most famous from Dragon Ball Z don't carry a lot of emotional weight when you ignore the foundation that was provided for them in the events that take place before the Saiyan arc.
The only ones that doesn't really carry any weight is Goku's first, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu. Goku's doesn't because it's immediately undercut by the immediately stated intention to revive him a year later.

Piccolo and Krillin's deaths carry just as much weight due to the execution and filler that has you grow to know and care about these characters before their deaths. You don't have to have the context of how DB went down to infer that Krillin is Goku's life long best friend or to have grown to like him over the course of the Saiyan through Namek arcs.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:17 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:42 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 pm
I never insinuated that Dragon Ball is a complex or intertwined story. I'm just saying that character and story beats that are the most famous from Dragon Ball Z don't carry a lot of emotional weight when you ignore the foundation that was provided for them in the events that take place before the Saiyan arc.
The only ones that doesn't really carry any weight is Goku's first, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu. Goku's doesn't because it's immediately undercut by the immediately stated intention to revive him a year later.

Piccolo and Krillin's deaths carry just as much weight due to the execution and filler that has you grow to know and care about these characters before their deaths. You don't have to have the context of how DB went down to infer that Krillin is Goku's life long best friend or to have grown to like him over the course of the Saiyan through Namek arcs.
Piccolo’s death is effective without Dragon Ball because of how much time was spent bonding with Gohan (heck its the only death in the Saban distributed Funi dub that has any emotional weight)

I’d still argue its better to have seen the prior arcs to get how evil Piccolo was which makes his redemption by laying his life down for Goku’s son more efficient.


The story is broadly written for kids to come in at any tine and be okay. Heck it aired once a week in Japan and didn’t have home video releases during its run. It was pretty much expect that a kid would come in at a random point and get hooked.

How many Americans kids literally started with Arrival of Raditz? I bet most came in to the show later many apparently didn’t start watching until after the Texas cast took over.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:42 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 pm
I never insinuated that Dragon Ball is a complex or intertwined story. I'm just saying that character and story beats that are the most famous from Dragon Ball Z don't carry a lot of emotional weight when you ignore the foundation that was provided for them in the events that take place before the Saiyan arc.
The only ones that doesn't really carry any weight is Goku's first, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu. Goku's doesn't because it's immediately undercut by the immediately stated intention to revive him a year later.

Piccolo and Krillin's deaths carry just as much weight due to the execution and filler that has you grow to know and care about these characters before their deaths. You don't have to have the context of how DB went down to infer that Krillin is Goku's life long best friend or to have grown to like him over the course of the Saiyan through Namek arcs.
Hard disagree on Yamcha and Chiaotzu's deaths not carrying any emotional weight. Yamcha was involved in Dragon Ball from the beginning chapters, has built a relationship with the main cast, particularly with Bulma, and his death in the Saiyan arc was originally a huge shock. And the anime actually emphasised that even more with Bulma's and Puar breaking down in tears when they watched it happen. I know Yamcha's death has become a meme but when it first happened in the manga and anime, it caught everyone off guard.

It's the same deal with Chiaotzu. His friendship with Tenshinhan is highlighted in story arcs prior to the Saiyan arc, and given the fact he's already died, it just makes his last ditch suicide attack on Nappa all the more cruel and sad to watch because you know he can't be brought back to life again.

Piccolo's death in the Saiyan arc carries a hell of a lot more weight when you know the context of the dynamic between himself and Goku, especially when you take into consideration how Piccolo was born. Piccolo risking his life to save Gohan may be an emotional moment on superficial level, but all of the subtle, nuance and dramatic effect just isn't there if aren't aware of Piccolo's history.

You would never know that Krillin is Goku's best friend if just watched Dragon Ball Z. Their whole friendship is built up prior to the Saiyan arc. Hell, its through the King Piccolo arc that you find out how much Goku values his friendship with Krillin, as when Krillin is murdered Goku not only cries but goes into a mad fit of rage. And that scene itself double as foreshadowing to the emotional context when taking into consideration why Goku becomes a Super Saiyan in the first place and specifically gets angry whenever Krillin mentioned by Freeza.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:26 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 pm


You would never know that Krillin is Goku's best friend if just watched Dragon Ball Z. Their whole friendship is built up prior to the Saiyan arc. Hell, its through the King Piccolo arc that you find out how much Goku values his friendship with Krillin, as when Krillin is murdered Goku not only cries but goes into a mad fit of rage. And that scene itself double as foreshadowing to the emotional context when taking into consideration why Goku becomes a Super Saiyan in the first place and specifically gets angry whenever Krillin mentioned by Freeza.
I’m sorry but I have to call bullshit. It’s incredibly obvious that Krillin is Goku’s best friend. Nobody who was exposed to Z before Dragon Ball thanks to Funimation had any trouble gathering that Krillin was Goku’s best friend. Especially when Goku point blank says it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:39 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:26 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 pm


You would never know that Krillin is Goku's best friend if just watched Dragon Ball Z. Their whole friendship is built up prior to the Saiyan arc. Hell, its through the King Piccolo arc that you find out how much Goku values his friendship with Krillin, as when Krillin is murdered Goku not only cries but goes into a mad fit of rage. And that scene itself double as foreshadowing to the emotional context when taking into consideration why Goku becomes a Super Saiyan in the first place and specifically gets angry whenever Krillin mentioned by Freeza.
I’m sorry but I have to call bullshit. It’s incredibly obvious that Krillin is Goku’s best friend. Nobody who was exposed to Z before Dragon Ball thanks to Funimation had any trouble gathering that Krillin was Goku’s best friend. Especially when Goku point blank says it.
Second this, considering I saw Z first.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:57 am

Just saying Krillin is one of the characters that doesn’t suffer from the decision to skip Dragon Ball.

Tien, Chaozu, Puar, Oolong, Kami, Mr. Popo, and Yajirobe? Those characters suffer big time from Dragon Ball being skipped.


I’d almost say Yamcha but Z does a good job of re-introducing him as Bulma’s boyfriend so there’s some emotional weight there. Master Roshi too. We don’t get to see how awesome he was in Dragon Ball but we at least understand his role as Goku and Krillins old master and that he knew Goku’s grandfather.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:09 am

The Westwood dub music is actually pretty good. It's second only to the Team Faulconer score, in terms of OST quality. What ruins it is the repetitive placement and lack of variety, not the actual compositions.

I also liked Brian Drummond's voice better here than in the Ocean dub. He deepened it the same way Sabat did, and I think that worked out for the best.
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