Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 2674
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: oak park heights
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:25 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:57 am
Just saying Krillin is one of the characters that doesn’t suffer from the decision to skip Dragon Ball.
i'd actually argue kuririn gets treated considerable better in the z portion of the series then he is during the original dragon ball, and his relationship with goku and his status as the main earthling of the group gets really driven home. honestly it's one of the things that i feel toriyama doesn't get enough credit for, kuririn was pretty heavily cast to the wayside during the 23rd budokai and combined that with not being alive at all during the piccolo daimao arc, the saiyan saga could've been the death of his relevance, but toriyama did a really good job of keeping him relevant till the cell games or so.
they/them

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:28 am

I think it's a mistake to frame the issue of whether to skip DB as a matter of plot. It's a matter of emotional resonance. Dragon Ball is a very simple manga, so it's easy to understand the story even from 1/3 of the way through, but the relationships and a few of the twists don't mean as much if you don't see where it all comes from. Piccolo's decision to give his life works well because his relationship to Gohan was given the time and focus, but it doesn't mean as much because we haven't experienced Piccolo's arc from the beginning. He doesn't travel nearly as far a path if we only see DBZ.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Zeon_Grunt
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:05 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 pm
Hard disagree on Yamcha and Chiaotzu's deaths not carrying any emotional weight. Yamcha was involved in Dragon Ball from the beginning chapters, has built a relationship with the main cast, particularly with Bulma, and his death in the Saiyan arc was originally a huge shock. And the anime actually emphasised that even more with Bulma's and Puar breaking down in tears when they watched it happen. I know Yamcha's death has become a meme but when it first happened in the manga and anime, it caught everyone off guard.

It's the same deal with Chiaotzu. His friendship with Tenshinhan is highlighted in story arcs prior to the Saiyan arc, and given the fact he's already died, it just makes his last ditch suicide attack on Nappa all the more cruel and sad to watch because you know he can't be brought back to life again.

Piccolo's death in the Saiyan arc carries a hell of a lot more weight when you know the context of the dynamic between himself and Goku, especially when you take into consideration how Piccolo was born. Piccolo risking his life to save Gohan may be an emotional moment on superficial level, but all of the subtle, nuance and dramatic effect just isn't there if aren't aware of Piccolo's history.

You would never know that Krillin is Goku's best friend if just watched Dragon Ball Z. Their whole friendship is built up prior to the Saiyan arc. Hell, its through the King Piccolo arc that you find out how much Goku values his friendship with Krillin, as when Krillin is murdered Goku not only cries but goes into a mad fit of rage. And that scene itself double as foreshadowing to the emotional context when taking into consideration why Goku becomes a Super Saiyan in the first place and specifically gets angry whenever Krillin mentioned by Freeza.
How do you not understand that Z does a just fine job of getting people used to the characters who are important to Z's portion of the story? You'll get all of the context you need for Goku's actual friends within the first few episodes of Z; Krillin is his best friend, Roshi is his mentor, and Yamcha is Bulma's ex-boyfriend. Piccolo is explicitly and repeated stated to have been Goku's previous "rival" and the big bad prior to Raditz showing up.

Chiaotzu's death only holds more weight under the understanding that he can't come back; everyone else's is undercut by the fact that they can until Piccolo dies, or because Toriyama explicitly set up another set of Dragon Balls before Piccolo died and reinforced it through Krillin explaining it to Gohan that Piccolo isn't likely dead for good. Beyond that, who the hell honestly cared about Chiaotzu enough to have cried at his death other than Tien? He's not an important or relevant character at any point in the series except for his two death scenes and that's solely to motivate/upset Tien, not anyone important to the story or emotionally impact the fans.

And that's just talking about the manga version. The first anime adds a bunch of filler episodes for all of the "relevant" characters for the Saiyan arc so new viewers will have some kind of attachment to them and Kai explicitly recaps the important parts of DB that play into Z's portion of the story.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm

Context isn't the same as emotional attachment. Yeah, we know what happened before, but we won't feel it since we don't have that experience.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Zeon_Grunt
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm
Context isn't the same as emotional attachment. Yeah, we know what happened before, but we won't feel it since we don't have that experience.
Anyone who legit claims they had some deep emotional attachment to Tien and Chiaotzu is flat out lying. Likewise, Yamcha had always been the guy to get his ass beat by that arc's big obstacle so it was only a matter of time before he was inevitably killed in a franchise where death has no lasting meaning or consequence.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:03 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:22 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm
Context isn't the same as emotional attachment. Yeah, we know what happened before, but we won't feel it since we don't have that experience.
Anyone who legit claims they had some deep emotional attachment to Tien and Chiaotzu is flat out lying. Likewise, Yamcha had always been the guy to get his ass beat by that arc's big obstacle so it was only a matter of time before he was inevitably killed in a franchise where death has no lasting meaning or consequence.
I've always liked Tenshinhan quite a lot, and I don't think that's a controversial opinion to hold. And there's also Piccolo - his development doesn't hold quite the same meaning if you don't experience it from the beginning.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:16 pm

If one had already watched Dragon Ball where Tenshinhan was one of the best developed characters on the show it would be quite easy to see why someone would care about Ten dying.

Now Funimation’s decision in 1996 to skip 140 episodes of Dragon Ball and remove Ten’s reintroduction scenes? Yeah I’d be at loss of why anyone would care about the three eye cowboy with the inexplicable surfer bro accent dying uhh going to the next dimension.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20898
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:47 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:57 am
Just saying Krillin is one of the characters that doesn’t suffer from the decision to skip Dragon Ball.

Tien, Chaozu, Puar, Oolong, Kami, Mr. Popo, and Yajirobe? Those characters suffer big time from Dragon Ball being skipped.

I’d almost say Yamcha but Z does a good job of re-introducing him as Bulma’s boyfriend so there’s some emotional weight there. Master Roshi too. We don’t get to see how awesome he was in Dragon Ball but we at least understand his role as Goku and Krillins old master and that he knew Goku’s grandfather.
I think Yamcha suffers as much as the rest of the characters you mentioned. Part of his character development with him getting over his phobia of women was him developing a relationship with Bulma and the only reason Bulma even when looking for the Dragon Balls in the first place was so that she could get a boyfriend. Bulma getting so upset over Yamcha dying just loses its emotional resonance when you're not aware of how much the relationship meant to one another.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
I Live Here
Posts: 3735
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:13 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:22 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm
Context isn't the same as emotional attachment. Yeah, we know what happened before, but we won't feel it since we don't have that experience.
Anyone who legit claims they had some deep emotional attachment to Tien and Chiaotzu is flat out lying. Likewise, Yamcha had always been the guy to get his ass beat by that arc's big obstacle so it was only a matter of time before he was inevitably killed in a franchise where death has no lasting meaning or consequence.
I want to make an statement but first I need to know. Did you watch DB in order?
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:33 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:22 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:11 pm
Context isn't the same as emotional attachment. Yeah, we know what happened before, but we won't feel it since we don't have that experience.
Anyone who legit claims they had some deep emotional attachment to Tien and Chiaotzu is flat out lying. Likewise, Yamcha had always been the guy to get his ass beat by that arc's big obstacle so it was only a matter of time before he was inevitably killed in a franchise where death has no lasting meaning or consequence.
That's a very bold claim and I respect that when you decide to be wrong you go balls to the wall with it
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

Cigarettes and Whisky and Wild, Wild Women are the only reasons to get out of bed.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:34 pm

Why do you think anyone is lying if they say they love Tenshinhan? Is it because you don't and can't see why anyone else would? Did you not go after me several times for implying exactly that?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:35 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:13 pm
Did you watch DB in order?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the grand majority of this forum did not watch Dragon Ball in order.

User avatar
Zeon_Grunt
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:51 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:33 pm
That's a very bold claim and I respect that when you decide to be wrong you go balls to the wall with it
I'll back track on the Tien statement, because I'm sure there's at least one person who somehow made an emotional bond with him over the course of his arc, but he got sidelined immediately by King Piccolo and faded further and further into obscurity.

Chiaotzu, however, is barely even a character at all. He exists to give Krillin a gag fight in the tournament and give Tien someone to have hanging around all the time.

That doesn't really defeat the point that death having no meaning for the heroes in the DB universe and that being made abundantly clear in episode 5 of Z undercuts any dramatic or emotional tension you can have for their deaths
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:13 pm
I want to make an statement but first I need to know. Did you watch DB in order?
Watched Z first and went back to read the manga from chapter 1, which is why you cannot convince me that you can't enjoy Z or get just as much enjoyment out of it without having seen DB. Having gone back and re-read the whole series, didn't make me love or care for the character deaths any more than I did when I was a kid because most of the characters who died are irrelevant relegated to "guys who get beat up until Goku shows up," long before Z started.
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:34 pm
Why do you think anyone is lying if they say they love Tenshinhan?
Same reason you dismiss people who love Broly as a character, he's barely a character and just there to be there after his first arc (which generally isn't enough to form an actual emotional attachment to a character).

Those of you who claim to have had an emotional connection to Tien when he died, did you cry or feel frustrated or upset in any way? If not, that's not an actual emotional connection to them and their deaths didn't have any real emotional impact on you. There's a difference between "I like this character," and "I'm emotionally invested in or attached to this character."

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
I Live Here
Posts: 3735
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:59 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:51 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:33 pm
That's a very bold claim and I respect that when you decide to be wrong you go balls to the wall with it
I'll back track on the Tien statement, because I'm sure there's at least one person who somehow made an emotional bond with him over the course of his arc, but he got sidelined immediately by King Piccolo and faded further and further into obscurity.

Chiaotzu, however, is barely even a character at all. He exists to give Krillin a gag fight in the tournament and give Tien someone to have hanging around all the time.

That doesn't really defeat the point that death having no meaning for the heroes in the DB universe and that being made abundantly clear in episode 5 of Z undercuts any dramatic or emotional tension you can have for their deaths
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:13 pm
I want to make an statement but first I need to know. Did you watch DB in order?
Watched Z first and went back to read the manga from chapter 1, which is why you cannot convince me that you can't enjoy Z or get just as much enjoyment out of it without having seen DB. Having gone back and re-read the whole series, didn't make me love or care for the character deaths any more than I did when I was a kid because most of the characters who died are irrelevant relegated to "guys who get beat up until Goku shows up," long before Z started.
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:34 pm
Why do you think anyone is lying if they say they love Tenshinhan?
Same reason you dismiss people who love Broly as a character, he's barely a character and just there to be there after his first arc (which generally isn't enough to form an actual emotional attachment to a character).

Those of you who claim to have had an emotional connection to Tien when he died, did you cry or feel frustrated or upset in any way? If not, that's not an actual emotional connection to them and their deaths didn't have any real emotional impact on you. There's a difference between "I like this character," and "I'm emotionally invested in or attached to this character."

I KNEW IT! YOU CANNOT possibly know what it feels to have grown to love this characters from the begging because you never did in the first place.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:03 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:51 pm
Same reason you dismiss people who love Broly as a character, he's barely a character and just there to be there after his first arc (which generally isn't enough to form an actual emotional attachment to a character).

Those of you who claim to have had an emotional connection to Tien when he died, did you cry or feel frustrated or upset in any way? If not, that's not an actual emotional connection to them and their deaths didn't have any real emotional impact on you. There's a difference between "I like this character," and "I'm emotionally invested in or attached to this character."
Swing and a miss. Tenshinhan is someone I have great affection for because I like his character. Even though he doesn't get as much focus as he should, he comes back at strategic times throughout to the end and is willing to risk it all to help. That's an aspect of his character I think is highly undervalued. I was very sad when he died. I didn't cry, but the scene where he loses Chaozu in the fight against Nappa through to his death are really well done. I am emotionally invested in his character. Whether you find it hard to form an emotional attachment to him isn't the issue. Do you not see your hypocrisy?

Broly on the other hand is pure marketing driven.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:04 pm

I think the fact that Kai felt the need to cram in an opening montage about all the stuff that happened before Raditz came along, should be a solid indication that even Toei agrees that the first half of the series is important, even if it’s not as popular.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:04 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:51 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:33 pm
That's a very bold claim and I respect that when you decide to be wrong you go balls to the wall with it
I'll back track on the Tien statement, because I'm sure there's at least one person who somehow made an emotional bond with him over the course of his arc, but he got sidelined immediately by King Piccolo and faded further and further into obscurity.
The 22nd Budokai is one of the best places to introduce people to Dragon Ball and comedic battle anime in general. If you are this much of a Z-era fanboy that the entire arc was forgettable to you, fine. That's just how you enjoy Dragon Ball. But please don't dismiss parts of the story that you didn't grow up with or declare them pointless because you didn't connect with them
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

Cigarettes and Whisky and Wild, Wild Women are the only reasons to get out of bed.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:11 pm

Yes, because when people think obscure characters, they think Tenshinhan.

Tenshinhan isn't rendered irrelevant in by Piccolo. He's vital to Goku surviving Piccolo Daimao.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Matches Malone
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 992
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:16 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:04 pm
I think the fact that Kai felt the need to cram in an opening montage about all the stuff that happened before Raditz came along, should be a solid indication that even Toei agrees that the first half of the series is important, even if it’s not as popular.
Of course it's important, it's the first third of the story. DB is the only story I can think of where fans not only skip a big part of it, but also try justify it and argue that it isn't important. Just watch or read the story from the start, just as you would with any other story.

User avatar
dbs fanboy
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:08 pm
Location: Spain

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:33 pm

Goku vs Caulifla/Kale was better than Goku vs Kefla (even thought the latter was pretty good).
I really liked how Goku was teaching them while beating their asses and how he manages to hold his own without transforming (right away) because he's just a better fighter. This fact is actually what made me disagree with the whole thing of Caulifla being a mary sue; yeah she has power, a lot, but that doesn't mean crap if she's just a regular brawler, while Goku is an actual experienced martial artist. I also really liked their interactions, super really shines with those kind of scenes
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


dbgtFO wrote:

Post Reply