Unpopular DB opinions

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Psajdak
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Psajdak » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:31 pm

Super Saiyan 5 may be pure fanfiction, but boy do I love how it looks.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by precita » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:43 pm

Super Saiyan 3 should have been the last Super Saiyan form. It also made sense there was a limit to power for mortals as Super Saiyan 3 costs a lot of energy and cannot be maintained for long.

Also I'm glad only Goku and Gotenks got it, as Super Saiyan 3 looks ridiculous on anyone else. It's one of the reasons I'm glad Gohan is staying in his Ultimate form and Future Trunks just got some advanced Super Saiyan 2 rage form. And Vegeta skipped it same as he did in GT.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:16 pm

Is it unpopular to say that I don’t like Toriyama’s skinny design for Ultra Instinct? It just looks like a recolor of Super Saiyan God. I prefer how the form looks in the anime.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:30 pm

I'll be honest, I don't believe Toriyama's passed his prime. I just don't believe he has as much passion or personal involvement as he either did back in the day, or should now. If we look at the current material, Battle of Gods & Super: Broly were great DB films. In my opinion, the best of them. BOG was a wonderful return to the franchise after Toriyama took almost 2 decades off & Broly rebooted the character into a much better version of himself. Super, however, in both the anime & manga form, has been wildly inconsistent in quality. Though I need to read more of the manga, some things I know of from the Future Trunks Arc are really stupid & drag it down, while the anime has many problems.
The problems with the anime come mostly from Toriyama only writing plot outlines, creating characters, & other smaller things & not being more personally involved with the production. Now, Toriyama's in his 60s now & he's notoriously lazy, so I don't expect him to have a big role in the production of future DB media outside of the writing, but it leaves something to be desired when the writing is as inconsistent & rushed as it is in Super's anime. A lot of the arcs felt rushed, or the first 1 felt too long because of all the pointless filler & slow pacing they added to the movie's version of events. When Toriyama's directly involved with the writing, though, more often than not, we get something really good. Like, there are some genuinely really good ideas in Super's plot points & everything from Toriyama, but the anime writers didn't use them to their fullest potential.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:47 pm

Scsigs wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:30 pm I'll be honest, I don't believe Toriyama's passed his prime. I just don't believe he has as much passion or personal involvement as he either did back in the day, or should now. If we look at the current material, Battle of Gods & Super: Broly were great DB films. In my opinion, the best of them. BOG was a wonderful return to the franchise after Toriyama took almost 2 decades off & Broly rebooted the character into a much better version of himself. Super, however, in both the anime & manga form, has been wildly inconsistent in quality. Though I need to read more of the manga, some things I know of from the Future Trunks Arc are really stupid & drag it down, while the anime has many problems.
The problems with the anime come mostly from Toriyama only writing plot outlines, creating characters, & other smaller things & not being more personally involved with the production. Now, Toriyama's in his 60s now & he's notoriously lazy, so I don't expect him to have a big role in the production of future DB media outside of the writing, but it leaves something to be desired when the writing is as inconsistent & rushed as it is in Super's anime. A lot of the arcs felt rushed, or the first 1 felt too long because of all the pointless filler & slow pacing they added to the movie's version of events. When Toriyama's directly involved with the writing, though, more often than not, we get something really good. Like, there are some genuinely really good ideas in Super's plot points & everything from Toriyama, but the anime writers didn't use them to their fullest potential.
I don't believe for one moment that Toriyama is actually as lazy as he claims. I'm convinced that he's just a humble guy and likes playing up a self-deprecating "cool slacker who never even has to try" image. He has been known to cut corners here and there and generally have a blase attitude, but the man had one of the most strenuous workloads of anyone in the entire Japanese entertainment industry (obviously most manga authors have inhumanely packed schedules as well, but from my understanding Toriyama's was especially gruelling at its peak). Dude's well within his rights to kick back and enjoy his own success a little bit after decades of nonstop hard work.

With regard to the expectations of him needing to write the anime for it to be good, Toriyama has never gotten too heavily involved with the anime side of the franchise. His current approach of creating designs and brief outlines isn't so different to how he provided content for the anime storyboarders of DB and Z. "Uhhh have an episode with a fire-eating bird, do an episode with Piccolo fighting a clone of himself", just appetisers and stimulators. I'm not sure Toriyama even could write a weekly anime because that simply isn't his area of expertise. At the end of the day, the anime was never really his product so I don't think he should be held responsible for its quality control.

I've made the analogy before but Dragon Ball Super is like Axe Cop. Axe Cop was an adult man adapting his five year old nephew's (or whatever relation) vague, childish, nonsensical imaginings for a webcomic and actually making it somewhat readable and coherent. Super is much the same, except now we have several people trying to adapt the vague imaginings of a 65 year old hermit.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:53 pm

It's not a shame to be past your prime. Everyone reaches that point.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Psajdak » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:17 pm

Before BoG happened, A LOT of fans said Buu saga was unnecessary.

Or even earlier.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by precita » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:50 pm

I mean people still do that. I still maintain the Boo arc was a fantastic way to end the original DBZ run in general.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gligarman » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:31 am

I love Boo too much to hate on his arc. Though I could have did without pretty much anytime Gohan did anything.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:41 am

precita wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:50 pmI still maintain the Boo arc was a fantastic way to end the original DBZ run in general.
I very much agree with this. The arc brought so many great things to the table that I can't imagine DB without it. DB without the Buu arc would be like Pizza without pepperoni , it'd still be good but something would feel off.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by precita » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:33 am

Gligarman wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:31 am I love Boo too much to hate on his arc. Though I could have did without pretty much anytime Gohan did anything.
Gohan's antics were the best part of the arc. I was always kinda disappointed Gohan's fight with Dabura was cut short. I would have liked to see that one through to the end.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:54 pm

The Boo arc seems to be the most divisive arc of the original manga, but it also comes across as a case of Toriyama going back to his roots. The big problem with the arc is that it keeps building up new concepts and power-ups that ultimately amount to nothing. It’s the epitome of Toriyama just making stuff up as he goes along.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:51 pm

For all its faults, the anime Buu arc might just be the funniest in the whole franchise. Gohan snapping the Z-Sword, Goku and Vegeta's antics inside Super Buu's body, Piccolo's over-the-top reactions to everything... Early Dragon Ball may have a (totally unfair) reputation as the "optional comedic prequel", but the constant sex gags lose their punch after so long. Nothing from Dragon Ball has made me lol quite like Buu arc.

Out of all the storylines, I think the Buu arc perhaps benefitted the most from the animated adaptation. Sooo much good stuff gets outright wasted or barely utilised in the manga version, plus the overall art quality is far superior in Toei's version. Toriyama's art was starting to get hideously angular and sloppy by this arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:02 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:51 pmOut of all the storylines, I think the Buu arc perhaps benefitted the most from the animated adaptation. Sooo much good stuff gets outright wasted or barely utilised in the manga version, plus the overall art quality is far superior in Toei's version. Toriyama's art was starting to get hideously angular and sloppy by this arc.
Toei IMO improved the arc in nearly every way, especially the fights, which are extremely short in the manga. You could tell that Toriyama was completely burned out and just wanted to get to the finish line at that point. Yamamoro's style was also great suring this era, unlike his current style.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:14 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:02 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:51 pmOut of all the storylines, I think the Buu arc perhaps benefitted the most from the animated adaptation. Sooo much good stuff gets outright wasted or barely utilised in the manga version, plus the overall art quality is far superior in Toei's version. Toriyama's art was starting to get hideously angular and sloppy by this arc.
Toei IMO improved the arc in nearly every way, especially the fights, which are extremely short in the manga. You could tell that Toriyama was completely burned out and just wanted to get to the finish line at that point. Yamamoro's style was also great suring this era, unlike his current style.
It's like Toriyama forgot that it was meant to be a battle manga at points. It seems he just couldn't think of new ways to make them interesting so just didn't bother for the most part. Poor Gohan barely gets to throw a punch for the whole arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:17 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:14 pmIt's like Toriyama forgot that it was meant to be a battle manga at points. It seems he just couldn't think of new ways to make them interesting so just didn't bother for the most part.
When the Buu arc started he was drawing weekly manga 13 years straight, and despite the Buu arc being rushed, it still ended up the longest with 99 chapters. I don't think it was a matter of not being able to as much as him just being really tired at that point. Had he extended things like Toei did, it would've easily went beyond 150. I think at that point in his career he should've been allowed to switch the release schedule to a chapter every 2 weeks instead.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:30 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:17 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:14 pmIt's like Toriyama forgot that it was meant to be a battle manga at points. It seems he just couldn't think of new ways to make them interesting so just didn't bother for the most part.
When the Buu arc started he was drawing weekly manga 13 years straight, and despite the Buu arc being rushed, it still ended up the longest with 99 chapters. I don't think it was a matter of not being able to as much as him just being really tired at that point. Had he extended things like Toei did, it would've easily went beyond 150. I think at that point in his career he should've been allowed to switch the release schedule to a chapter every 2 weeks instead.
I should amend my comment, he definitely could come up with new stuff as shown with Gotenks vs. Buu, but he mainly relegated to gag contexts. He didn't seem at all interested in developing Gohan's fighting style, for example, or showing very much of Goku fighting Vegeta since they were used in serious contexts. He gathered some steam by the time Kid Buu shows up, just in time for the finale. You're right that he was definitely exhausted by this point.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:35 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:30 pmHe didn't seem at all interested in showing very much of Goku fighting Vegeta since they were used in serious contexts.
This was the biggest surprise to me when I read the manga. The fight was being built up to for years (in and out of universe), yet it was barely a thing in the manga, unlike the anime which went above and beyond to make it worth the wait. Gohan's fight with Cell was also rushed in the manga compared the anime, so the short fights were beginning to show before the Buu arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:32 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:51 pm For all its faults, the anime Buu arc might just be the funniest in the whole franchise. Gohan snapping the Z-Sword, Goku and Vegeta's antics inside Super Buu's body, Piccolo's over-the-top reactions to everything... Early Dragon Ball may have a (totally unfair) reputation as the "optional comedic prequel", but the constant sex gags lose their punch after so long. Nothing from Dragon Ball has made me lol quite like Buu arc.

The humor in early DB is much more than just the sex gags.

For me personally I don't care for the Boo saga humor. There are some bits here or there that might work, but Toriyama's and/or Toei's comedy skills were at their weakest in my view.

The Masunaga animation style certainly doesn't help things either.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by precita » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:16 pm

The Boo saga is a dark comedy.

- Gohan becoming a silly superhero
- Fat Buu's design in general (looks like a marshmallow man)
- Buu turning people into chocolate/candy and eating them
- Mr. Satan becoming a major character and not just a silly side character, and actually saving the day
- A tournament set up just for everyone to abandon it mid-way, and 18's fight with Mighty Mask and Mr. Satan was comedic
- Supreme Kai overreacting at everything, Kibito having mental breakdowns of Gohan standing on the land of the Kai's.
- Gotenks in general with the ghost kamikaze attacks (his fight with Buu in the time chamber is one of the funniest in all of DBZ)
- Piccolo overreacting over everything Gotenks did, the scene in the tub, Buu standing around wondering if he can fight
- Vegetto turning into candy and STILL attacking as a piece of chocolate
- Elder Kai dying giving his life to Goku and waking right back up again with a halo over his head
- Kid Buu's silliness in the final battle dancing

But of course the stakes were at their highest. Vegeta fails to kill Boo and loses his life, Boo's human extinction act kills nearly all humans on Earth, Buu then kills nearly all of Goku's friends on Kami's lookout, and then finally it's the one time Goku fails at protecting the Earth and the world gets destroyed for the first time.

Boo also being able to travel to Other World and potentially wipe out not only the universe, but even the entire "dead" universe as well was really something. The stakes being at their highest with both the living and dead world being wiped from existence (remember back in DBZ there was only 1 universe, not like now), was a great way to cap everything off.

I also really like the Spirit Bomb using the energy from everyone on Earth, and it actually defeating the final villain for once (it didn't kill Vegeta and failed against Freeza), so that's why I don't mind that Gohan didn't get the win like a lot of people.

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