Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

But that is the world of Dragon Ball. It is what it is about. And Piccolo is way more similar to Goku than you give him credit for. It is about fighting above all else. It isn’t a superhero story. I’m not sure what you want because that is exactly what it sounds like.

Lastly Goku loves battle but he isn’t bloodthirsty. He wants competition not to hurt people

[TheGodfather93]

But that is the world of Dragon Ball. It is what it is about. And Piccolo is way more similar to Goku than you give him credit for. It is about fighting above all else. It isn’t a superhero story. I’m not sure what you want because that is exactly what it sounds like.

Lastly Goku loves battle but he isn’t bloodthirsty. He wants competition not to hurt people

I don't want anything. At no point in this thread have I ever said I wanted the story to change. Even if I did, it wouldn't amount to anything because the manga has been over for decades, and it's not like I'd have the power to change it anyway. All I did was state my unpopular opinion - that I dislike Goku - and then outline my reasons as to why. I also gave some background information on what prompted me to feel that way, by explaining how my view of the series and its characters has changed as I've gotten older.

[ABED]

But that is the world of Dragon Ball. It is what it is about. And Piccolo is way more similar to Goku than you give him credit for. It is about fighting above all else. It isn’t a superhero story. I’m not sure what you want because that is exactly what it sounds like.

Lastly Goku loves battle but he isn’t bloodthirsty. He wants competition not to hurt people

I don't want anything. At no point in this thread have I ever said I wanted the story to change. Even if I did, it wouldn't amount to anything because the manga has been over for decades, and it's not like I'd have the power to change it anyway. All I did was state my unpopular opinion - that I dislike Goku - and then outline my reasons as to why. I also gave some background information on what prompted me to feel that way, by explaining how my view of the series and its characters has changed as I've gotten older.

I find it silly to dislike a character in this kind of series for that reason. The only thing that matters is if a character is interesting

[Cure Dragon 255]

Look, ABED, why not just let him feel how he wants to feel? Its not harming anyone.

[ABED]

Does he not like the character or the person?

[precita]

Rewatching the original Bardock special, outside of Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space (whereas in the original special Bardock just sees Goku's pod flying into space as he's headed back to Vegeta after Dodoria nearly kills him), the rest of the special still can fit into canon with the events in the Broly movie, ignoring the difference in armor Bardock wears.

Bardock's entire team still being wiped out by Dodoria makes sense, and it's why Bardock stages his revolt against Freeza in the movie as well as the special. The Broly movie skips over the reason Bardock goes after Freeza, but knowing this backstory gives it a little more sense. Especially if Bardock is still able to see a bit into the future. I can see his team being wiped out after he and Gine send Goku into space.

Even the scenes with kid Vegeta and young Nappa from the Bardock special fit with the scene of kid Vegeta and Nappa in the Broly movie, as Vegeta demands an assignment from Freeza in the special, and then in the movie we see where he and Nappa went off too. (in addition to Radditz who was oddly absent in the original special).

Really the only thing that was retconned is of course Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space and Bardock being a caring father as in the original he seemed indifferent to his son being born until the end.

[WittyUsername]

Rewatching the original Bardock special, outside of Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space (whereas in the original special Bardock just sees Goku's pod flying into space as he's headed back to Vegeta after Dodoria nearly kills him), the rest of the special still can fit into canon with the events in the Broly movie, ignoring the difference in armor Bardock wears.

Bardock's entire team still being wiped out by Dodoria makes sense, and it's why Bardock stages his revolt against Freeza in the movie as well as the special. The Broly movie skips over the reason Bardock goes after Freeza, but knowing this backstory gives it a little more sense. Especially if Bardock is still able to see a bit into the future. I can see his team being wiped out after he and Gine send Goku into space.

Even the scenes with kid Vegeta and young Nappa from the Bardock special fit with the scene of kid Vegeta and Nappa in the Broly movie, as Vegeta demands an assignment from Freeza in the special, and then in the movie we see where he and Nappa went off too. (in addition to Radditz who was oddly absent in the original special).

Really the only thing that was retconned is of course Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space and Bardock being a caring father as in the original he seemed indifferent to his son being born until the end.

The way Bardock figures out that Freeza wants to kill the Saiyans is changed as well. In the special, he learns about it through a combination of visions of the future, and the death of his crew. In the newer backstory, he figures it out on his own after Freeza orders all the Saiyans to return to planet Vegeta. He’s also shown to already be distrusting of Freeza in the Minus backstory, while in the special, he seems perfectly loyal to him until the betrayal happens.

[DBPirate]

I like the direction Gohan's character has gone in and I believe it to be totally consistent with how he acted when he was introduced. I've never understood the vitriol that people have toward him.

In a show about fighting, where many of the fans treat the show like it’s a video game a lot of them just expect the character who was “suppose to be the strongest fighter ever” to deliver.


It’s not like Toriyama/Toei didn’t play fair with Gohan. He said he wanted to be a scholar in his first appearance

I brought that exact point up once and I was told that people who mention that Gohan always wanted to be a scholar "don't understand the argument Gohan fans are making". I never actually got to hear what the argument was. I presume "Gohan fans" referred to people who thought that Gohan was going to be just as battle-hungry as Goku once he turned SS2.

[precita]

Rewatching the original Bardock special, outside of Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space (whereas in the original special Bardock just sees Goku's pod flying into space as he's headed back to Vegeta after Dodoria nearly kills him), the rest of the special still can fit into canon with the events in the Broly movie, ignoring the difference in armor Bardock wears.

Bardock's entire team still being wiped out by Dodoria makes sense, and it's why Bardock stages his revolt against Freeza in the movie as well as the special. The Broly movie skips over the reason Bardock goes after Freeza, but knowing this backstory gives it a little more sense. Especially if Bardock is still able to see a bit into the future. I can see his team being wiped out after he and Gine send Goku into space.

Even the scenes with kid Vegeta and young Nappa from the Bardock special fit with the scene of kid Vegeta and Nappa in the Broly movie, as Vegeta demands an assignment from Freeza in the special, and then in the movie we see where he and Nappa went off too. (in addition to Radditz who was oddly absent in the original special).

Really the only thing that was retconned is of course Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space and Bardock being a caring father as in the original he seemed indifferent to his son being born until the end.

The way Bardock figures out that Freeza wants to kill the Saiyans is changed as well. In the special, he learns about it through a combination of visions of the future, and the death of his crew. In the newer backstory, he figures it out on his own after Freeza orders all the Saiyans to return to planet Vegeta. He’s also shown to already be distrusting of Freeza in the Minus backstory, while in the special, he seems perfectly loyal to him until the betrayal happens.

Yeah, but there does seem to be a bit of a time gap between when Bardock is seen confronting Freeza in the movie and when he figures this out. You can pretty much slot in Bardock's team being wiped out by Dodoria inbetween those segments. I honestly wonder if it was written like this purposely so the events of the original special could still happen in maybe a slightly different way, which is why we saw so little of Bardock's final stand against Freeza...there wasn't even any dialogue or anything between the two so it was like they skimmed through it because they assume people watched the original special.

[WittyUsername]

Rewatching the original Bardock special, outside of Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space (whereas in the original special Bardock just sees Goku's pod flying into space as he's headed back to Vegeta after Dodoria nearly kills him), the rest of the special still can fit into canon with the events in the Broly movie, ignoring the difference in armor Bardock wears.

Bardock's entire team still being wiped out by Dodoria makes sense, and it's why Bardock stages his revolt against Freeza in the movie as well as the special. The Broly movie skips over the reason Bardock goes after Freeza, but knowing this backstory gives it a little more sense. Especially if Bardock is still able to see a bit into the future. I can see his team being wiped out after he and Gine send Goku into space.

Even the scenes with kid Vegeta and young Nappa from the Bardock special fit with the scene of kid Vegeta and Nappa in the Broly movie, as Vegeta demands an assignment from Freeza in the special, and then in the movie we see where he and Nappa went off too. (in addition to Radditz who was oddly absent in the original special).

Really the only thing that was retconned is of course Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space and Bardock being a caring father as in the original he seemed indifferent to his son being born until the end.

The way Bardock figures out that Freeza wants to kill the Saiyans is changed as well. In the special, he learns about it through a combination of visions of the future, and the death of his crew. In the newer backstory, he figures it out on his own after Freeza orders all the Saiyans to return to planet Vegeta. He’s also shown to already be distrusting of Freeza in the Minus backstory, while in the special, he seems perfectly loyal to him until the betrayal happens.

Yeah, but there does seem to be a bit of a time gap between when Bardock is seen confronting Freeza in the movie and when he figures this out. You can pretty much slot in Bardock's team being wiped out by Dodoria inbetween those segments. I honestly wonder if it was written like this purposely so the events of the original special could still happen in maybe a slightly different way, which is why we saw so little of Bardock's final stand against Freeza...there wasn't even any dialogue or anything between the two so it was like they skimmed through it because they assume people watched the original special.

There’s no room for a time gap in the TV special. In the special, Bardock gets knocked out at a point when he and his crew have no clue of Freeza’s intentions, then after he recovers, he heads straight to planet Meat, and finds his crew dead. The two stories simply aren’t compatible.

[TobyS]

Rewatching the original Bardock special, outside of Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space (whereas in the original special Bardock just sees Goku's pod flying into space as he's headed back to Vegeta after Dodoria nearly kills him), the rest of the special still can fit into canon with the events in the Broly movie, ignoring the difference in armor Bardock wears.

Bardock's entire team still being wiped out by Dodoria makes sense, and it's why Bardock stages his revolt against Freeza in the movie as well as the special. The Broly movie skips over the reason Bardock goes after Freeza, but knowing this backstory gives it a little more sense. Especially if Bardock is still able to see a bit into the future. I can see his team being wiped out after he and Gine send Goku into space.

Even the scenes with kid Vegeta and young Nappa from the Bardock special fit with the scene of kid Vegeta and Nappa in the Broly movie, as Vegeta demands an assignment from Freeza in the special, and then in the movie we see where he and Nappa went off too. (in addition to Radditz who was oddly absent in the original special).

Really the only thing that was retconned is of course Bardock/Gine being the ones to send Goku into space and Bardock being a caring father as in the original he seemed indifferent to his son being born until the end.

The way Bardock figures out that Freeza wants to kill the Saiyans is changed as well. In the special, he learns about it through a combination of visions of the future, and the death of his crew. In the newer backstory, he figures it out on his own after Freeza orders all the Saiyans to return to planet Vegeta. He’s also shown to already be distrusting of Freeza in the Minus backstory, while in the special, he seems perfectly loyal to him until the betrayal happens.

Yeah, but there does seem to be a bit of a time gap between when Bardock is seen confronting Freeza in the movie and when he figures this out. You can pretty much slot in Bardock's team being wiped out by Dodoria inbetween those segments. I honestly wonder if it was written like this purposely so the events of the original special could still happen in maybe a slightly different way, which is why we saw so little of Bardock's final stand against Freeza...there wasn't even any dialogue or anything between the two so it was like they skimmed through it because they assume people watched the original special.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/generalinfo/ ... png?x29702
LEKE: There’s been an order to return home, so Bardock and I are about to head back to Planet Vegeta. What about you guys?
TOMA: A return-home order? Wait just a minute! We haven’t heard anything of the sort.

DODORIA: Heh heh heh… That’s because you’re all about to die right here and now.

NARRATOR: After this, they lost contact with Toma & co… That is the event that caused Bardock’s suspicion of this return-home order to grow ever-stronger.

TOYOTARŌ: It’s Pumbukin, Selypa, Totapo, and Toma! It seems like these four were involved off in the background of the Broly movie… or at least that’s how I imagine it. (laughs)
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... o-drew-it/

Funnily enough this is what toyo imagines his friends still getting killed, just Bardok isn't there.

[TheGodfather93]

Does he not like the character or the person?

Is there a difference? If so, does it really matter? I dislike Goku, and I gave numerous reasons as to why.

I knew my opinion was an unpopular one, but I never expected anyone to have this much of a problem with it.

[Mad Swami]

Goku has been somewhat flanderized as the series progressed especially in Super. Goku always wanted competition but contrary to popular belief he was a good person.

Saves turtle for no reason other than to help

Decides to save Bora to save Bora and to stop the evil Red Ribbon Army, the prospect of fighting strong warriors as a bonus

He is a genuinely good person who does seek to protect those he cares about and even those he doesn't know. However, Super has him stake the universes for a fight, granted he wasn't fully aware but he was overly callous and just so obnoxiously a caricature of himself.

Goku in the Saiyan saga acknowledges how it's a bad idea to spare Vegeta and yet years later he repeats the event. Which I find weird because Goku clearly moved past "you were so strong, you can go" mentallity through the later half of Z I thought. He never shows any desire to spare Cell or Buu despite them being the strongest of their time. The best we got was "I wish you would come back as a good guy, so we could fight again" during Buu. Now Goku goes back to his old Piccolo/Vegeta/Frieza ways.

[ABED]

Does he not like the character or the person?

Is there a difference? If so, does it really matter? I dislike Goku, and I gave numerous reasons as to why.

I knew my opinion was an unpopular one, but I never expected anyone to have this much of a problem with it.

Yes. I don't like Vegeta as a person, but as a character, he's interesting. I would think that's an obvious distinction.

Goku wasn't flanderized (such a nonsense term). Those instances you are talking about are Goku helping out people he met along the way. I've already covered this. He doesn't go looking for them. He will help people when he sees them suffereing, but he's very concrete bound. He doesn't go looking for them. He's always been about the competition. He puts the world in danger for the sake of a better fight. None of the things you mentioned contradict his characterization.

He never shows any desire to spare Cell or Buu despite them being the strongest of their time.

Because he didn't change. They had to die because they couldn't be subdued. Notice in the examples you gave of him sparing his opponent, they were subdued.

[TheGodfather93]

Alright then. I think Goku's an interesting character, especially as far as shounen protagonists go, but I dislike a lot him as a person.

[Mad Swami]

Goku wasn't flanderized (such a nonsense term). Those instances you are talking about are Goku helping out people he met along the way. I've already covered this. He doesn't go looking for them. He will help people when he sees them suffering, but he's very concrete bound. He doesn't go looking for them. He's always been about the competition. He puts the world in danger for the sake of a better fight. None of the things you mentioned contradict his characterization.

He never shows any desire to spare Cell or Buu despite them being the strongest of their time.

Because he didn't change. They had to die because they couldn't be subdued. Notice in the examples you gave of him sparing his opponent, they were subdued.

Why is flanderized such a nonsense term? It holds true to a lot of characters throughout long running series and I would include Goku.

Goku doesn't go looking for them but he also doesn't blatantly ignore them. In Super Goku is the most assasinated character who regressed to an unbelivable degree. Vegeta would be second due to him repeating his previous arc and moments.
Goku is dumber than he has ever been (Forgeting the things in the Zamasu arc/not knowing kissing)
Goku is more callous (Setting up the T.O.P and not even showing a little regret/every fight no matter how serious Goku has to exclaim his love for it despite tons of past instances showing Goku take life threatining battles more seriously)

Goku is a thin aproxamation of his character.

Now honestly I don't hate Goku sparing Moro in a vacuum. I hate it on top of the other countless rehashes of the Cell saga in this arc. I think the idea could have worked if it didn't feel the need to cling to the Cell saga with Goku giving the dangerous villain a Senzu bean to everyone's dismay. If Moro wasn't rejuvenated and Goku did the whole "Promise you will go willingly and maybe take up some training" it would be harder to hate this moment. However, because the whole climax of the arc is just repeating Cell's beats I am sick of it. Super flanderized his character but this moment isn't really my issue. The main/only real issue with the Moro instance is that in all the other cases there was always a more pragmatic argument to be made

Goku spares Piccolo partly due to the fact that if he dies Kami dies. Goku promises to keep him in check (ok fair enough)

Goku spares Vegeta for how strong and amazing he is but deep down probably saw something similar to what he saw in Piccolo (Somewhat fair)

Goku tries to spare Frieza. Could be argued that SSJ had influenced that decission (Fair I guess)

Goku spares Moro because Moro was strong and Goku is naturally inclined to spare people (Works I guess)

However I will admit my issues with that part are moreso with the previous parts in the arc and not that one in particular

[ABED]

First, it comes from TVtropes.com which basically takes any two instances of something happening, and considers it a trope. And the term implies Flanders is a complete exaggeration which is an unfair assessment as Flanders is quite nuanced.

Second, Goku did not set up the Tournament of Power. And he did take things seriously. He may not have been as uber serious and grim and lacking in enjoyment as you may like but he does take the stakes of it seriously. Just because he wants the best fight possible does not in any way mean he isn't being serious.

Third, he doesn't ignore them when they are more than concrete, but as as has been shown plenty of times, he won't pre-emptively stop something if it means there's a fight to be had. He'll stop the cyborgs from destroying the city when they are destroying it in front of him, but he wouldn't stop them when he has warning.

deep down probably saw something similar to what he saw in Piccolo (Somewhat fair)

Not at all why he did it. That's a dubism.

What's interesting is if you really think about it, Goku this bit of characterization is more prevalent for more of the story than his "earlier" characterization for lack of a better term.

[Mad Swami]

First, it comes from TVtropes.com which basically takes any two instances of something happening, and considers it a trope. And the term implies Flanders is a complete exaggeration which is an unfair assessment as Flanders is quite nuanced.

Second, Goku did not set up the Tournament of Power. And he did take things seriously. He may not have been as uber serious and grim and lacking in enjoyment as you may like but he does take the stakes of it seriously. Just because he wants the best fight possible does not in any way mean he isn't being serious.

Third, he doesn't ignore them when they are more than concrete, but as as has been shown plenty of times, he won't pre-emptively stop something if it means there's a fight to be had. He'll stop the cyborgs from destroying the city when they are destroying it in front of him, but he wouldn't stop them when he has warning.

deep down probably saw something similar to what he saw in Piccolo (Somewhat fair)

Not at all why he did it. That's a dubism.

What's interesting is if you really think about it, Goku this bit of characterization is more prevalent for more of the story than his "earlier" characterization for lack of a better term.

Well sure Flanders was nuanced but all of that nuance fled in the later seasons thats the whole point. Did it really come from tv tropes.com? I know that site but I am not familiar with them creating the term. Regardless of origin its a fine term I feel.

Goku absolutley set it up what do you mean? In the anime continuity he goes to Zeno and reminds Zeno of the tournament and kicks starts it. He is directly responsible

Again I don't know if I agree with this. In the manga when Piccolo asks if Goku is excited by the prospect of two Saiyans coming to Earth stronger than Raditz he says he isn't he's "terrified". I agree Goku wants to battle and I honestly think he and Vegeta act the most in character relating to the scene in which they agree not to deal with Gero, however I think again Goku is being very pulled in the opposite direction from the hero the anime portrayed him as in response to the anime's portrayl. Basically to make sure people know he isn't the hero funimation made him they make him go to a extent in the opposite direction that is also out of character.

In the manga I feel Goku shows a great deal of compassion that makes me feel that reasoning could apply similarily. Not that its the main reason or factual just I think context clues could lend credience to it. Regardless that isn't my main oint about Vegeta, my only main thing was the acknowledgement of how it isn't a good idea but he really wants it.

I just think Super some what fumbles his character and makes him a shell of his former self which had a good amount of balance.

[ABED]

I mean what I wrote. He didn't set up the tournament. Zeno did. Goku only made the tournament happen quicker but he didn't create it which is what you stated. That's not setting it up.

So Goku is acting out of character to you because he says he's scared once? I'm sure he is frightened but he's also excited. We see that during his fight against Vegeta. He says he's both excited and scared. He didn't remind Zeno of the tournament. He was tired of waiting and wanted to get it done with. Maybe you could say that's callous of him but why wait for the damn hammer to fall?

Well sure Flanders was nuanced but all of that nuance fled in the later seasons thats the whole point.

That's not why that term exists. If that were true, it would apply to the show as a whole, but no, they are talking about Flanders alone. The biggest reason we don't need such an insipid term is because one already existed - caricature.

In the manga I feel Goku shows a great deal of compassion that makes me feel that reasoning could apply similarily.

There is nothing to support that claim. And regardless of whether Piccolo was different from his father, Piccolo Jr. tried to murder him and everyone he cared about. Goku didn't let Piccolo live because he saw something in him. Now whether his compassion is part of why he lets them go, it's not the main reason.

I just think Super some what fumbles his character and makes him a shell of his former self which had a good amount of balance.

Super does quite a bit wrong, but this ain't it. The context might be hightened but he's the same character. I'll give you the kiss thing being silly but a stretch in logic for a dumb joke is hardly the worst thing nor is it this grand bit of evidence showing Goku is a caricature of himself. I honestly like that after years of the same formula of bad guy turning up to destroy the world and Goku heroically stopping him, getting back to Goku's relentless drive is refreshing.

[Mad Swami]

I mean what I wrote. He didn't set up the tournament. Zeno did. Goku only made the tournament happen quicker but he didn't create it which is what you stated. That's not setting it up.

So Goku is acting out of character to you because he says he's scared once? I'm sure he is frightened but he's also excited. We see that during his fight against Vegeta. He says he's both excited and scared. He didn't remind Zeno of the tournament. He was tired of waiting and wanted to get it done with. Maybe you could say that's callous of him but why wait for the damn hammer to fall?

Well sure Flanders was nuanced but all of that nuance fled in the later seasons thats the whole point.

That's not why that term exists. If that were true, it would apply to the show as a whole, but no, they are talking about Flanders alone. The biggest reason we don't need such an insipid term is because one already existed - caricature.

In the manga I feel Goku shows a great deal of compassion that makes me feel that reasoning could apply similarily.

There is nothing to support that claim. And regardless of whether Piccolo was different from his father, Piccolo Jr. tried to murder him and everyone he cared about. Goku didn't let Piccolo live because he saw something in him. Now whether his compassion is part of why he lets them go, it's not the main reason.

I just think Super some what fumbles his character and makes him a shell of his former self which had a good amount of balance.

Super does quite a bit wrong, but this ain't it. The context might be hightened but he's the same character. I'll give you the kiss thing being silly but a stretch in logic for a dumb joke is hardly the worst thing nor is it this grand bit of evidence showing Goku is a caricature of himself. I honestly like that after years of the same formula of bad guy turning up to destroy the world and Goku heroically stopping him, getting back to Goku's relentless drive is refreshing.

Goku tells Piccolo he isn't though. The lines are "You must be excited, two stronger Saiyans out there" "I'm actually not, I'm terrified". But in Super it doesn't matter the danger Goku just laughs about how excited he is.

I am fairly certain Zeno said he forgot until Goku arrived. Could be wrong but still. Regardless it is callous to do what he did

Flanderized does only refer to Ned my point is that Ned's nuance was lost as Simpsons progressed hence Flanderization the term

My point with Vegeta wasn't that Goku saw good in him and that's why it was Goku probably saw something in him like Piccolo Jr. which was apart of the decision not the main reason. The main reason being he wanted to rematch Vegeta.

I just think Super presents weaker versions of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. Each one lost some of their growth and a good deal of their arcs completley repeated. Fin from Last Jedi flashbacks ever present