Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:33 pm

Goku being scared about the idea of Saiyans stronger than Raditz probably had more to do with the situation he was in - Gohan being kidnapped. He wasn't in the state of mind to care about challenges. Now it was, "For fuck's sake, MORE people who can put my family in danger?!" Confirmed by how excited he is when he's actually fighting Vegeta a year later.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Psajdak » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:07 pm

When so many people say that Goku in DBS is his own parody, then maybe there IS something to think about...

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:30 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:33 pm
Goku being scared about the idea of Saiyans stronger than Raditz probably had more to do with the situation he was in - Gohan being kidnapped. He wasn't in the state of mind to care about challenges. Now it was, "For fuck's sake, MORE people who can put my family in danger?!" Confirmed by how excited he is when he's actually fighting Vegeta a year later.
But it still shows this more balanced version of Goku that is more than the one-note portrayal of recent years

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:20 am

I don't buy that Goku was ever afraid for his family's safety. I can believe that he was scared instead of excited, but not for those kinds of reasons.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by 90sDBZ » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:06 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:20 am
I don't buy that Goku was ever afraid for his family's safety. I can believe that he was scared instead of excited, but not for those kinds of reasons.
If we're counting filler then the pre-Kaioken x20 dream sequence says otherwise.

An opinion of mine that seems unpopular on here is the middle portion of the Buu Saga being great. I love all the wacky stuff with Gotenks and Super Buu, Gohan's battles with Super Buu, Vegito in general, and Goku and Vegeta's interactions during the inside Buu filler.

It's all unashamedly over the top and unpredictable, which makes it one of the most fun portions of the series for me, and puts the Buu arc above Cell.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am

Psajdak wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:07 pm
When so many people say that Goku in DBS is his own parody, then maybe there IS something to think about...
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub. Like this conversation, I see a lot of people dropping context and blowing little lines out of proportion and refusing to acknowledge that Goku putting the world in danger for the sake of a fight is nothing remotely new. It's like they are so desperate to not believe that is who he is they latch onto him saying "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" or being momentarily afraid of a powerful threat or seeing something good in Piccolo well after the fact.
Flanderized does only refer to Ned my point is that Ned's nuance was lost as Simpsons progressed hence Flanderization the term

My point with Vegeta wasn't that Goku saw good in him and that's why it was Goku probably saw something in him like Piccolo Jr. which was apart of the decision not the main reason. The main reason being he wanted to rematch Vegeta.

I just think Super presents weaker versions of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. Each one lost some of their growth and a good deal of their arcs completley repeated. Fin from Last Jedi flashbacks ever present
I get the etymology and that's why it's a asinine term. It doesn't need to exist. There was already a more accurate term that existed. TVtropes is garbage. If they are claiming Flanders is the character who lost nuance in later seasons, that shows you the quality of their argument. The show as a whole lost its nuance.

What good could Goku have possibly seen in Vegeta at that point? This is the sort of thinking that leads to claims that Goku was more "balanced". You've created your own characterization based on what you want to see instead of what we're actually shown. Vegeta was trying to murder everyone, he callously killed his own partner, and vowed to return to finish the job. At least with Piccolo, fighting by the tournament rules does show some sort of change which I could never see the previous incarnation do.

I agree that Super regressing people to give them arcs again is problematic and it's a big issue I have with revivals, although I prefer Gohan's arc in Super over what we got out of him in the Cell and Buu arcs. It feels like a logical progression for his character. What the heck does Finn have to do with this?

Whether Goku was callous for asking that the tournament be pushed up, he is not responsible for its creation, and is perfectly consistent with his character. How was Goku supposed to know Zeno forgot about the tournament? How does that make him responsible?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Psajdak » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:52 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub.
Then I guess I misunderstood something here; I really couldn't care less about dub, and was talking about Nozawa's Goku, and to myself who I'd dare say have a good understanding of just what kind of a character he is - compared to how he was in DBZ, he is for most part ridiculous in DBS, where authors, IMO, tried really hard to make him sort of dumb, but lovable shonen hero, similar to Naruto, I guess.

I would go so far as to say that even as a child he didn't seem so stupid.

One just needs to see that one episode where he is impatient about training with Whis to understand that DBS Goku completely regressed as character.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:46 am

Psajdak wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:52 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub.
Then I guess I misunderstood something here; I really couldn't care less about dub, and was talking about Nozawa's Goku, and to myself who I'd dare say have a good understanding of just what kind of a character he is - compared to how he was in DBZ, he is for most part ridiculous in DBS, where authors, IMO, tried really hard to make him sort of dumb, but lovable shonen hero, similar to Naruto, I guess.

I would go so far as to say that even as a child he didn't seem so stupid.

One just needs to see that one episode where he is impatient about training with Whis to understand that DBS Goku completely regressed as character.
he regressed because he is eager to train? We are talking about a character who needed to pay people to ascertain their sex
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Psajdak » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:54 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:46 am
he regressed because he is eager to train? We are talking about a character who needed to pay people to ascertain their sex
It's alright if you can't notice what thousands of other people can.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:49 am

Psajdak wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:52 am

I would go so far as to say that even as a child he didn't seem so stupid.

You can definitely make a case that Goku got significantly dumber between Z and Super (like, even acknowledging Toei and Funimation played up Goku and Chi Chi’s marriage as more genuine than Toriyama intended it’s still weird he doesn’t understand the concept of kissing) but no Goku as a child who couldn’t tell the difference between men and women without patting their crotch and was confused by technology and basic social customs was not smarter than Goku in Super.

If anything Goku’s behavior in early Dragon Ball was just more excusable because he was a wild child who lived away from society for the first 12 years of his life were Goku in Super has been among the modern world for 25+ years

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:51 am

Psajdak wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:54 am
It's alright if you can't notice what thousands of other people can.
It's not a matter of not being able to see it, but rather not wanting to.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:21 am

Psajdak wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:54 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:46 am
he regressed because he is eager to train? We are talking about a character who needed to pay people to ascertain their sex
It's alright if you can't notice what thousands of other people can.
try not talking down to me and I might listen
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:23 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:51 am
Psajdak wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:54 am
It's alright if you can't notice what thousands of other people can.
It's not a matter of not being able to see it, but rather not wanting to.
just don’t. I’m not evading anything. I just don’t think he’s notably stupider. Are there a handful of dumb jokes? Sure but those happen over the course of the entire story
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:26 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:23 am
just don’t. I’m not evading anything. I just don’t think he’s notably stupider. Are there a handful of dumb jokes? Sure but those happen over the course of the entire story
If you don't have any issues with how Goku's written that's fine, everyone has different opinions, but let's not act like there isn't a massive difference between how he was written before and how he's written now.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:30 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:26 am
[quote=ABED post_id=<a href="tel:1679583">1679583</a> time=<a href="tel:1605626634">1605626634</a> user_id=77208]just don’t. I’m not evading anything. I just don’t think he’s notably stupider. Are there a handful of dumb jokes? Sure but those happen over the course of the entire story
If you don't have any issues with how Goku's written that's fine, everyone has different opinions, but let's not act like there isn't a massive difference between how he was written before and how he's written now.
[/quote]for instance?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:52 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:30 am
For instance?
I don't think I need to list what's obvious to everyone, including yourself. As I said before, I'm not a fan of going in constant circles with no results to show for it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:57 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:52 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:30 am
For instance?
I don't think I need to list what's obvious to everyone, including yourself. As I said before, I'm not a fan of going in constant circles with no results to show for it.
Apparently you do because the most I hear is the no kiss thing and he puts the universe in danger which was perfectly in character
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am
Psajdak wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:07 pm
When so many people say that Goku in DBS is his own parody, then maybe there IS something to think about...
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub. Like this conversation, I see a lot of people dropping context and blowing little lines out of proportion and refusing to acknowledge that Goku putting the world in danger for the sake of a fight is nothing remotely new. It's like they are so desperate to not believe that is who he is they latch onto him saying "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" or being momentarily afraid of a powerful threat or seeing something good in Piccolo well after the fact.
Flanderized does only refer to Ned my point is that Ned's nuance was lost as Simpsons progressed hence Flanderization the term

My point with Vegeta wasn't that Goku saw good in him and that's why it was Goku probably saw something in him like Piccolo Jr. which was apart of the decision not the main reason. The main reason being he wanted to rematch Vegeta.

I just think Super presents weaker versions of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. Each one lost some of their growth and a good deal of their arcs completley repeated. Fin from Last Jedi flashbacks ever present
I get the etymology and that's why it's a asinine term. It doesn't need to exist. There was already a more accurate term that existed. TVtropes is garbage. If they are claiming Flanders is the character who lost nuance in later seasons, that shows you the quality of their argument. The show as a whole lost its nuance.

What good could Goku have possibly seen in Vegeta at that point? This is the sort of thinking that leads to claims that Goku was more "balanced". You've created your own characterization based on what you want to see instead of what we're actually shown. Vegeta was trying to murder everyone, he callously killed his own partner, and vowed to return to finish the job. At least with Piccolo, fighting by the tournament rules does show some sort of change which I could never see the previous incarnation do.

I agree that Super regressing people to give them arcs again is problematic and it's a big issue I have with revivals, although I prefer Gohan's arc in Super over what we got out of him in the Cell and Buu arcs. It feels like a logical progression for his character. What the heck does Finn have to do with this?

Whether Goku was callous for asking that the tournament be pushed up, he is not responsible for its creation, and is perfectly consistent with his character. How was Goku supposed to know Zeno forgot about the tournament? How does that make him responsible?
That's fair about Vegeta, again I wasn't saying that''s what I think is 100% true just something that can be discussed. The time when I would say Goku saw some good in Vegeta was during the Frieza arc where Goku got to understand him better which I think influenced Goku's decision to let him live and what not on Earth. Vegeta's rematch wasn't really in Goku's mind after the Frieza arc from what I can remember.

Gohan just repeats his Buu saga arc and then learns to deal with his arrogance which I enjoyed. I wished we could have just done that, however. I will say I think his Cell saga and Buu saga arcs were better executed. The Finn joke/point was because in Last Jedi he completely repeats his arc in Ep7 hence why I would get "Finn flashbacks"

Well, Goku shouldn't be meddling with those affairs which are not as simple as god holds a tournament. Zeno has shown his ruthlessness for lack of a better term and Goku should take those things seriously. It's just one of the many problems with the T.O.P arc

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am
Psajdak wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:07 pm
When so many people say that Goku in DBS is his own parody, then maybe there IS something to think about...
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub. Like this conversation, I see a lot of people dropping context and blowing little lines out of proportion and refusing to acknowledge that Goku putting the world in danger for the sake of a fight is nothing remotely new. It's like they are so desperate to not believe that is who he is they latch onto him saying "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" or being momentarily afraid of a powerful threat or seeing something good in Piccolo well after the fact.


I am not denying Goku's love for battle is not a major part of his character, my main issue is it gets far wonkier as the series progresses. I also don't think he is a superhero who fights evil because it's simply evil. the main thing I was trying to illustrate is that in earlier Dragonball/z Goku showed moments that really depict his character as more than just "Mr. fights guys"

I can only think of two moments where Goku really put people in danger for the sake of a fight, maybe three

1. sparing Vegeta: it's the clearest instance. He lets Vegeta a massive threat leave. Later on, this turns out to be positive and Goku learns more about the Saiyan prince

2. Not intervening with Dr. Gero: I could have seen Goku warn him but it's not really out of character him and is more an issue with characters like Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin. However, there is the pragmatic reason of "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" it's not Goku's main reason but it's akin to the reason Piccolo Jr. should be spared.

3. Fighting Kid Buu with no Potara: This one is the exact same as him fighting Piccolo Jr. by tournament rules 1 on 1 despite Kami offering to help. Goku is still going to give it his all and try and kill Buu but he is not going to have an easy victory. He is going to work for it.

I just don't see it in Goku's character from years of exploring the series to do some of the things he does in Super.

1. Him going to Zeno about the T.O.P
2. forgets important things in the Zamasu arc
3. Acts like a complete tool around Zamasu and Gowasu
etc

I don't think he never shows some genuine characterization, there are good moments. However, there are a lot of large moments that just don't work

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm
3. Fighting Kid Buu with no Potara: This one is the exact same as him fighting Piccolo Jr. by tournament rules 1 on 1 despite Kami offering to help. Goku is still going to give it his all and try and kill Buu but he is not going to have an easy victory. He is going to work for it.
Goku was justified here because the Potara (at the time) was permanent, so refusing after getting so lucky to be unfused inside Buu is understandable. There's also the fact that Goku still accepted help from Buu, Vegeta, Satan, & the people of earth, so he wasn't exactly leaving options on the table.
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm
Him going to Zeno about the T.O.P
Acts like a complete tool around Zamasu and Gowasu
What makes this even worse is that despite knowing what would happen if they lose, he doesn't show any sign of regret. He's literally told he could potentially not only cause his friends and family to die, but trillions of others as well, yet he doesn't care at all.

This was the textbook definition of a WTF moment in Super. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Not only is Goku badly written in Super, he's not even likable anymore, which is terrible for someone who occupied as much screen time as he did.

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