Unpopular DB opinions

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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:33 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am
Psajdak wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:07 pm
When so many people say that Goku in DBS is his own parody, then maybe there IS something to think about...
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub. Like this conversation, I see a lot of people dropping context and blowing little lines out of proportion and refusing to acknowledge that Goku putting the world in danger for the sake of a fight is nothing remotely new. It's like they are so desperate to not believe that is who he is they latch onto him saying "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" or being momentarily afraid of a powerful threat or seeing something good in Piccolo well after the fact.


I am not denying Goku's love for battle is not a major part of his character, my main issue is it gets far wonkier as the series progresses. I also don't think he is a superhero who fights evil because it's simply evil. the main thing I was trying to illustrate is that in earlier Dragonball/z Goku showed moments that really depict his character as more than just "Mr. fights guys"

I can only think of two moments where Goku really put people in danger for the sake of a fight, maybe three

1. sparing Vegeta: it's the clearest instance. He lets Vegeta a massive threat leave. Later on, this turns out to be positive and Goku learns more about the Saiyan prince

2. Not intervening with Dr. Gero: I could have seen Goku warn him but it's not really out of character him and is more an issue with characters like Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin. However, there is the pragmatic reason of "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" it's not Goku's main reason but it's akin to the reason Piccolo Jr. should be spared.

3. Fighting Kid Buu with no Potara: This one is the exact same as him fighting Piccolo Jr. by tournament rules 1 on 1 despite Kami offering to help. Goku is still going to give it his all and try and kill Buu but he is not going to have an easy victory. He is going to work for it.

I just don't see it in Goku's character from years of exploring the series to do some of the things he does in Super.

1. Him going to Zeno about the T.O.P
2. forgets important things in the Zamasu arc
3. Acts like a complete tool around Zamasu and Gowasu
etc

I don't think he never shows some genuine characterization, there are good moments. However, there are a lot of large moments that just don't work
You act as those instances are very important and as stated he is very much in character. Goku wasn’t being pragmatic when he said Gero hadn’t done anything. He was so half assed when he said that. It was an excuse. Piccolo loves to fight so that isn’t out of character either
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:34 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm
3. Fighting Kid Buu with no Potara: This one is the exact same as him fighting Piccolo Jr. by tournament rules 1 on 1 despite Kami offering to help. Goku is still going to give it his all and try and kill Buu but he is not going to have an easy victory. He is going to work for it.
Goku was justified here because the Potara (at the time) was permanent, so refusing after getting so lucky to be unfused inside Buu is understandable. There's also the fact that Goku still accepted help from Buu, Vegeta, Satan, & the people of earth, so he wasn't exactly leaving options on the table.
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm
Him going to Zeno about the T.O.P
Acts like a complete tool around Zamasu and Gowasu
What makes this even worse is that despite knowing what would happen if they lose, he doesn't show any sign of regret. He's literally told he could potentially not only cause his friends and family to die, but trillions of others as well, yet he doesn't care at all.

This was the textbook definition of a WTF moment in Super. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Not only is Goku badly written in Super, he's not even likable anymore, which is terrible for someone who occupied as much screen time as he did.
whether he is a good person is not the issue. As we’ve seen he is more than willing to put people in danger for questionable ends.

Here is a controversial opinion- I like that he does this. I don’t care about the fate of the universe. The stakes are so boring and lack anything personal. We know how it ends. What does matter to me is the characters’ personal stakes
Last edited by ABED on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:42 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:33 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:46 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:11 am
I have, and I don't agree. So much of how Goku is seen by western fans is influenced by the dub. Like this conversation, I see a lot of people dropping context and blowing little lines out of proportion and refusing to acknowledge that Goku putting the world in danger for the sake of a fight is nothing remotely new. It's like they are so desperate to not believe that is who he is they latch onto him saying "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" or being momentarily afraid of a powerful threat or seeing something good in Piccolo well after the fact.


I am not denying Goku's love for battle is not a major part of his character, my main issue is it gets far wonkier as the series progresses. I also don't think he is a superhero who fights evil because it's simply evil. the main thing I was trying to illustrate is that in earlier Dragonball/z Goku showed moments that really depict his character as more than just "Mr. fights guys"

I can only think of two moments where Goku really put people in danger for the sake of a fight, maybe three

1. sparing Vegeta: it's the clearest instance. He lets Vegeta a massive threat leave. Later on, this turns out to be positive and Goku learns more about the Saiyan prince

2. Not intervening with Dr. Gero: I could have seen Goku warn him but it's not really out of character him and is more an issue with characters like Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin. However, there is the pragmatic reason of "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything yet" it's not Goku's main reason but it's akin to the reason Piccolo Jr. should be spared.

3. Fighting Kid Buu with no Potara: This one is the exact same as him fighting Piccolo Jr. by tournament rules 1 on 1 despite Kami offering to help. Goku is still going to give it his all and try and kill Buu but he is not going to have an easy victory. He is going to work for it.

I just don't see it in Goku's character from years of exploring the series to do some of the things he does in Super.

1. Him going to Zeno about the T.O.P
2. forgets important things in the Zamasu arc
3. Acts like a complete tool around Zamasu and Gowasu
etc

I don't think he never shows some genuine characterization, there are good moments. However, there are a lot of large moments that just don't work
You act as those instances are very important and as stated he is very much in character. Goku wasn’t being pragmatic when he said Gero hadn’t done anything. He was so half assed when he said that. It was an excuse. Piccolo loves to fight so that isn’t out of character either
Piccolo loves fighting but it was so out of character for him. I know this because later in the arc he is proactive and wants to stop 17 and 18 from being awakened. He isn't letting them be activated to fight he instead is acting in character and tries to stop them

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by HokutoNanto519 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:45 pm

To starts things off, greetings! I'm a swedish dude who recently joined! Hopefully it will be for a lengthy time.

As for the very main topic at hand, I've got a few "unpopular" opinions about Dragon Ball. Some of those are quite critical of the series, but most are quite positive. I don't want to sound like some sour old man with my first post and as such, I'm going to focus on my positive opinions with regards to Dragon Ball with this post.

To start things of, I have to admit that I have always found people's takes surrounding certain aspects of the series to be quite weird. Some of the most common ones tend to be that the series "lost its way" with regards to characters ever-increasing battle power and fights allegedly "becoming less grounded". The way I see it, Dragon Ball is a series that very clearly lifts core aspects of its being from mythology and wuxia to a very great degree. Characters have used supernatural abilities since the series very beginning. Goku even used Kamehameha all way back in chapter 15 of the original manga if memory serves me right. Those abilities have been there since the very beginning and makes Dragon Ball what it is alongside Toriyama's (wonderful) writing, illustrations and paneling. Without that, Dragon Ball would be a different and and lesser series that would only serve to hinder Toriyama's creative genius. The alternative would be to have the characters use them less, but that would give it the Hokuto no Ken 2 problem where Kenshiro have access to a library of other martial artists hokuto and nanto techniques, but only ever using them occasionally (more or less every 25th or 30th chapter apart). That would make the battles incredibly dull in the long run and completely be a waste of the stuff it takes inspiration from in the first place.

Another thing I find absolutely baffling is the dislike for the final story of the original manga, aka chapters 421-519 (yes, I know some might take offense to that, but I think those chapters are more or less part of the final storyline so be lenient). I still consider the final storyline to be Toriyama's magnum opus. Thus, I can't help but wonder why some circles seem to outright hate it and consider it to be the worst of the entire manga. Like, come on. The early parts of the manga had recurring grotesque amounts of "outdated" (read: sexist and racist) "humor" (read: misogyny and bigotry). Meanwhile, the final storyline had wonderful character development for loads of characters in the series, undoubtedly the best battles in the manga as well as loads of well-written and funny scenarios more or less all the time. If I remember correctly, it might have the least objectionable stuff as well?

Anyway, chew on those things (if you want). I'm going to give more positive takes (and some negative ones as well) later on this week.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:45 pm

You can point to similar things with Goku but as has been stated the are very concrete bound. Piccolo was also excited to pick a fight with Freeza. That wasn’t OoC. He is the reincarnated demon king
Last edited by ABED on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by HokutoNanto519 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm

One of the fundamental issues with Dragon Ball in USA is that despite making the occasional step forwards, Funimation takes steps backwards that tries to imitate the times when they were trying to rewrite the show to be something completely different. This approach makes their modern dubbing attempts gel poorly and you end up with an uneven show that kinda wants to be more accurate, but then still slinks right back to its (and let's be frank) shitty americanization that still hurts the series reputation til this day. Mind you, I live in Sweden and I still hear people say stuff that links back to Funimation's previous (and ongoing) americanization. It's maddening. Why can't they be a professional company (of course, that can be said for 95 percent of the big shots in the Dragon Ball community, but that is for another topic)?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:10 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:45 pm
You can point to similar things with Goku but as has been stated the are very concrete bound. Piccolo was also excited to pick a fight with Freeza. That wasn’t OoC. He is the reincarnated demon king
But then why does he try to stop the androids later? He likes a good fight but Piccolo is not stupid. Piccolo loves to get stronger but he will prevent horrible things.
Why not let Cell get Perfect? They act like Vegeta is a monster but they did the same thing three years earlier. I think its incredibly out of character for them

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:13 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:10 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:45 pm
You can point to similar things with Goku but as has been stated the are very concrete bound. Piccolo was also excited to pick a fight with Freeza. That wasn’t OoC. He is the reincarnated demon king
But then why does he try to stop the androids later? He likes a good fight but Piccolo is not stupid. Piccolo loves to get stronger but he will prevent horrible things.
Why not let Cell get Perfect? They act like Vegeta is a monster but they did the same thing three years earlier. I think its incredibly out of character for them
he is concrete bound! He will try to t fight and stop it when it is in front of him. And we need to draw a distinction between pre and post merge with Kami
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:33 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:13 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:10 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:45 pm
You can point to similar things with Goku but as has been stated the are very concrete bound. Piccolo was also excited to pick a fight with Freeza. That wasn’t OoC. He is the reincarnated demon king
But then why does he try to stop the androids later? He likes a good fight but Piccolo is not stupid. Piccolo loves to get stronger but he will prevent horrible things.
Why not let Cell get Perfect? They act like Vegeta is a monster but they did the same thing three years earlier. I think its incredibly out of character for them
he is concrete bound! He will try to t fight and stop it when it is in front of him. And we need to draw a distinction between pre and post merge with Kami
He tries to stop the androids before fusing with Kami.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:38 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:33 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:13 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:10 pm

But then why does he try to stop the androids later? He likes a good fight but Piccolo is not stupid. Piccolo loves to get stronger but he will prevent horrible things.
Why not let Cell get Perfect? They act like Vegeta is a monster but they did the same thing three years earlier. I think its incredibly out of character for them
he is concrete bound! He will try to t fight and stop it when it is in front of him. And we need to draw a distinction between pre and post merge with Kami
He tries to stop the androids before fusing with Kami.
But of course that’s not out of character
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:48 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:38 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:33 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:13 pm
he is concrete bound! He will try to t fight and stop it when it is in front of him. And we need to draw a distinction between pre and post merge with Kami
He tries to stop the androids before fusing with Kami.
But of course that’s not out of character
no, that's not, him allowing Gero to build them three years prior is I would say. Piccolo tries to prevent A18 and A17 from activating before fusing with Kami. But 3 years ago he was fine to let Dr. Gero go with no convincing. I think he should have had been convinced and not on board

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:58 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:48 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:38 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:33 pm

He tries to stop the androids before fusing with Kami.
But of course that’s not out of character
no that's not, him allowing Gero to build them three years prior is I would say
based on what? He is the reincarnated demon king and was all too happy to poke the bear before fighting Freeza. Who is Piccolo at that point to you?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:58 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:48 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:38 pm

But of course that’s not out of character
no that's not, him allowing Gero to build them three years prior is I would say
based on what? He is the reincarnated demon king and was all too happy to poke the bear before fighting Freeza. Who is Piccolo at that point to you?
Because years later when given the same task he does it. Piccolo likes fighting but he has proven himself someone who will sacrifice a fair fight for the sake of survival like when he teamed with Goku against Raditz.

I think Piccolo maybe should have been reluctant at least. But he, Tien, and Krillin act out of character for not trying to deal with it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:22 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:58 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:48 pm

no that's not, him allowing Gero to build them three years prior is I would say
based on what? He is the reincarnated demon king and was all too happy to poke the bear before fighting Freeza. Who is Piccolo at that point to you?
Because years later when given the same task he does it. Piccolo likes fighting but he has proven himself someone who will sacrifice a fair fight for the sake of survival like when he teamed with Goku against Raditz.

I think Piccolo maybe should have been reluctant at least. But he, Tien, and Krillin act out of character for not trying to deal with it.
He fought with Goku for self preservation. That doesn't prove he wouldn't want to fight powerful enemies. He is the DEMON KING reincarnated. It makes far more sense that only after he merges with Kami that he would truly care about the greater good.

And we're not talking about fair fights. We're talking about fighting strong enemies regardless of how the fights are structured. Fair one on one fights is a separate issue. Goku is also willing to give up the fair fight for the sake of survival. That doesn't mean he won't let the bad guy go for the sake of a better fight. These are two separate issues.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:26 pm

Why do people carry on as if Goku knew Zeno was going to put the universes at stake ahead of time?
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:47 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:22 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:58 pm
based on what? He is the reincarnated demon king and was all too happy to poke the bear before fighting Freeza. Who is Piccolo at that point to you?
Because years later when given the same task he does it. Piccolo likes fighting but he has proven himself someone who will sacrifice a fair fight for the sake of survival like when he teamed with Goku against Raditz.

I think Piccolo maybe should have been reluctant at least. But he, Tien, and Krillin act out of character for not trying to deal with it.
He fought with Goku for self preservation. That doesn't prove he wouldn't want to fight powerful enemies. He is the DEMON KING reincarnated. It makes far more sense that only after he merges with Kami that he would truly care about the greater good.

And we're not talking about fair fights. We're talking about fighting strong enemies regardless of how the fights are structured. Fair one on one fights is a separate issue. Goku is also willing to give up the fair fight for the sake of survival. That doesn't mean he won't let the bad guy go for the sake of a better fight. These are two separate issues.
But my point is Piccolo by trying to stop A17 and A18 from awakening after the time skip is acting how he should have acted back when Trunks presented the android threat

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:50 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:47 pm
But my point is Piccolo by trying to stop A17 and A18 from awakening after the time skip is acting how he should have acted back when Trunks presented the android threat
It feels completely out of character for him. What about Piccolo leads you to think he would want to preemptively stop them? After merging with Kami, sure, but before?

I agree about Kuririn and Tenshinhan, though Kuririn does give a decent argument as to why they should wait to fight the cyborgs.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:27 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:50 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:47 pm
But my point is Piccolo by trying to stop A17 and A18 from awakening after the time skip is acting how he should have acted back when Trunks presented the android threat
It feels completely out of character for him. What about Piccolo leads you to think he would want to preemptively stop them? After merging with Kami, sure, but before?

I agree about Kuririn and Tenshinhan, though Kuririn does give a decent argument as to why they should wait to fight the cyborgs.
I forget Krillin's reason off the top of my head. My only issue with Piccolo is a lack of consistency. There are two back-to-back instances where the same option is presented and in both cases, he picks the opposite answer. So which is it? Does he stop problems before they start or seek to fight? Piccolo could have recommended they warn Dr. Gero and if he still goes through with it his loss. That's the most Piccolo response to the idea of the Z fighters finding Gero before the androids could attack. I think it's a small problem but I would still say it was weird. My only real problem with the arc honestly, I know some people have other issues but I think it's a super tight arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:31 pm

The characters trying to stop #17 and #18 from being activated is funny when you place it alongside the attitude they took before the time skip. Obviously, Trunks would want to stop them from being activated, but the fact that the other characters (apart from Vegeta) seem to agree with him is weird.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:38 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:27 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:50 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:47 pm
But my point is Piccolo by trying to stop A17 and A18 from awakening after the time skip is acting how he should have acted back when Trunks presented the android threat
It feels completely out of character for him. What about Piccolo leads you to think he would want to preemptively stop them? After merging with Kami, sure, but before?

I agree about Kuririn and Tenshinhan, though Kuririn does give a decent argument as to why they should wait to fight the cyborgs.
I forget Krillin's reason off the top of my head. My only issue with Piccolo is a lack of consistency. There are two back-to-back instances where the same option is presented and in both cases, he picks the opposite answer. So which is it? Does he stop problems before they start or seek to fight? Piccolo could have recommended they warn Dr. Gero and if he still goes through with it his loss. That's the most Piccolo response to the idea of the Z fighters finding Gero before the androids could attack. I think it's a small problem but I would still say it was weird. My only real problem with the arc honestly, I know some people have other issues but I think it's a super tight arc.
I can't remember the speech exactly but it's akin to the group became allies by facing threats like the Saiyans, but then tells Gohan if they train for the Cyborgs, Vegeta won't start trouble.

I know there's an inconsistency but why do you just assume Piccolo wouldn't want to fight the cyborgs like Goku and Vegeta? What about his character at that point makes you think he would want to stop them before they can destroy the world?

I buy Goku and Vegeta and Piccolo wanting to fight. Kuririn doesn't really want to fight them but he would definitely want to keep Vegeta from starting trouble, Yamcha I don't buy, but Tenshinhan could go both ways :wink:
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