Unpopular DB opinions

[Psajdak]

Toppo is better character than Jiren.

[Matches Malone]

Toppo is better character than Jiren.

A piece of wood is a better character than Jiren, literally anything is better than Jiren.

[PurestEvil]

Toppo is better character than Jiren.

Ribrianne is better than Jiren

[MasenkoHA]

Isn’t Jiren like widely disliked for being bland?

[sunsetshimmer]

Toppo is better character than Jiren.

It's not that hard to be better character than Jiren lol. This guy makes Broly, Omega Shenron and few other characters look like very well written personas Not to mention them at least having some interesting techniques. Jiren is bland in every possible way, boring design, no personality and no interesting techniques. Literally nothing.

Ribrianne is better than Jiren

She's better than most of DBS characters if you ask me. Honsetly, she's one of the very few DBS characters i liked, another being Hit and Kefla.

Isn’t Jiren like widely disliked for being bland?

He is, but there is still that part of fandom who think power = everything. Very likely the same kind of people who widely adore Broly and are obsesed with him being the strongest guy and whatever, you can't even say Broly would lose to Cell even though it's true, at least if we talk about movie 8 Broly. Not saying i don't like Broly, i actually like his M8 version a lot, but seeing people being hyped about Jiren reminds me of those dark sides of fandom. Luckily, in case of Jiren it's nowhere as bad as it was/is with Broly. Jiren is mostly known as the guy who forced Goku to reach ultra instinct and any popularity he has comes from that one fact. He will always be associated with Goku reaching new form.

[EGonzo]

I actually like Jiren and his backstory. He's a Demon King Piccolo saga Goku gone wrong

[SupremeKai25]

Jiren is the classic case of "Concept > Execution". Conceptually he is far more original than any antagonist from old DB, serving as a foil for Goku and having actual potential in the future storyline, but his execution is bad and his backstory is a joke.

Regardless he is proof that Toriyama has evolved and seeks to create more psychologically complex and nuanced antagonists. All the villains from OG DB, Z, and GT are so shallow and one-dimensional. You might like them for the nostalgia factor, but once you remove your nostalgia goggles you'll see that they are all just generic evil monsters. At least Jiren is more ambitious conceptually.

I must say, I do appreciate how Toriyama is tired of generic evil monsters, and wants to come up with actual three-dimensional, morally grey villains. This is obvious with Zamasu, Toriyama literally said that for the first time he wanted to come up with a morally grey character who presents a moral dilemma. But this can also be seen in the other original Super antagonists, like Hit, Jiren, and Broly. Very clearly they are all pretty nuanced and have some potential in the future of the franchise. Jiren for example has learned the meaning of friendship and love and wants a rematch with Goku.

Even Frieza has become more nuanced in Super, because he's willing to set aside his differences with the monkeys to cooperate with them. That is undeniable proof of major character development.

Which is why it's surprising that Moro is such a trash, bland villain, but oh well you win some you lose some. Hopefully the next villain is more original.

[LoganForkHands73]

Jiren is the classic case of "Concept > Execution". Conceptually he is far more original than any antagonist from old DB, serving as a foil for Goku and having actual potential in the future storyline, but his execution is bad and his backstory is a joke.

Regardless he is proof that Toriyama has evolved and seeks to create more psychologically complex and nuanced antagonists. All the villains from OG DB, Z, and GT are so shallow and one-dimensional. You might like them for the nostalgia factor, but once you remove your nostalgia goggles you'll see that they are all just generic evil monsters. At least Jiren is more ambitious conceptually.

I must say, I do appreciate how Toriyama is tired of generic evil monsters, and wants to come up with actual three-dimensional, morally grey villains. This is obvious with Zamasu, Toriyama literally said that for the first time he wanted to come up with a morally grey character who presents a moral dilemma. But this can also be seen in the other original Super antagonists, like Hit, Jiren, and Broly. Very clearly they are all pretty nuanced and have some potential in the future of the franchise. Jiren for example has learned the meaning of friendship and love and wants a rematch with Goku.

Even Frieza has become more nuanced in Super, because he's willing to set aside his differences with the monkeys to cooperate with them. That is undeniable proof of major character development.

Which is why it's surprising that Moro is such a trash, bland villain, but oh well you win some you lose some. Hopefully the next villain is more original.

Bit harsh on the older villain archetype but I will agree that part of what's made Super interesting is the dedication to more diversely motivated antagonists. Even though the execution of Jiren's character was severely flawed, there's a substantial portion of fans who are hankering for his return and he has potential for more depth. It helps that Toriyama now has slightly more time to plan ahead with the directions of new antagonists, whereas before he was often forced to write by the seat of his pants, and making the villains one-dimensional baddies was convenient and effective. That said, many OG villains were definitely given depth and nuance, even if they didn't have self-justifiable intentions like Jiren or Zamasu.

As I said in an overly long post on another thread, I think they did try to give some minor depth to Moro towards the end, but it all came far, far too late for it to be worth anything when the vast majority of his page-time is as a bland, generic monster.

[MasenkoHA]

Regardless he is proof that Toriyama has evolved and seeks to create more psychologically complex and nuanced antagonists. All the villains from OG DB, Z, and GT are so shallow and one-dimensional. You might like them for the nostalgia factor, but once you remove your nostalgia goggles you'll see that they are all just generic evil monsters. At least Jiren is more ambitious conceptually.

I must say, I do appreciate how Toriyama is tired of generic evil monsters, and wants to come up with actual three-dimensional, morally grey villains. This is obvious with Zamasu, Toriyama literally said that for the first time he wanted to come up with a morally grey character who presents a moral dilemma. But this can also be seen in the other original Super antagonists, like Hit, Jiren, and Broly. Very clearly they are all pretty nuanced and have some potential in the future of the franchise. Jiren for example has learned the meaning of friendship and love and wants a rematch with Goku.

Morally grey =/= better sometimes a villain can be a great villain just for being a villain.

Piccolo Daimao is the personification of God’s evil. He has literally no reason to be more morally grey. He’s a great villain because of how evil he is and what a turning point he represents for the story where the good guys are dying left and right and this happy go lucky world has gotten dark

Vegeta is an elitist arrogant asshole who suffers humility when he’s bested by a low class warrior the big turning point for his character is when he’s willing to sacrifice himself for Bulma and Trunks to stop Boo even if means going to hell. Something Vegeta never would have done before.

Freeza is an evil space emperor. He’s Piccolo Daimao and Vegeta on a much larger scale. He’s entertaining because he’s an evil, smug, condescending prick. Goku beating his ass is cathartic.

Cell...well he has cool designs and his hunt for the cyborgs is engaging enough and he’s basically Saiyan pride mixed with Freeza’s smugness.


Boo is just entertaining. This powerful terrifying demon that dwarves Freeza and Cell in power is a man baby with a sweet tooth.

None of these villains would actually gain anything by being morally grey.

Even Frieza has become more nuanced in Super, because he's willing to set aside his differences with the monkeys to cooperate with them. That is undeniable proof of major character development.

That’s not character development. It’s character assassination to justify his being around. He has literally NO reason to be chilling with the cast but gosh darn Freeza is the face villain so we have to bring him back.

[PurestEvil]

Even Frieza has become more nuanced in Super, because he's willing to set aside his differences with the monkeys to cooperate with them. That is undeniable proof of major character development.

That’s not character development. It’s character assassination to justify his being around. He has literally NO reason to be chilling with the cast but gosh darn Freeza is the face villain so we have to bring him back.

Um, I am pretty sure Freeza is not and never had been "chilling with the cast". He is still off rebuilding his empire, trying to find ways to usurp the gods if I remember correctly. He is still as evil as he had always been, he only made a temporary alliance.

[DBPirate]

I think Jiren's a fine antagonist. A character that rarely speaks or is seen as stoic is often considered bland, as I've seen in many series beyond Dragon Ball.

That’s not character development. It’s character assassination to justify his being around. He has literally NO reason to be chilling with the cast but gosh darn Freeza is the face villain so we have to bring him back.

I wouldn't say it's character assassination. Frieza is about self-preservation. He's not going to constantly put himself in harm's way just because of some grudge he has against Goku and Vegeta. And like PurestEvil said, he's never been chilling with the cast.

[LoganForkHands73]

Freeza has never been one-dimensional anyway. Yeah, he's always pure evil, but he represents a specific brand of evil that's extremely relevant. He's the racist, condescending, untouchable upper class to our backwater monkey heroes. There's always been a bit of a corporate edge to him as well -- after all, Toriyama based him off real estate speculators, except instead of buying and reselling off property at a higher price, he's dealing with entire planets. Beyond that, he has a vibrant personality and serves as a great foil to the heroes.

I don't really see his treatment in Super as a character assassination, though. I mean, yeah, his initial return in Revival of F was piss poor, but their second attempt for the Tournament of Power was worthwhile, they gave him some genuine growth without compromising his sociopathic personality. Controversially, I enjoyed seeing Freeza in a more comedic role in Super: Broly, however I can certainly see the argument that he's becoming more of a recurring Saturday morning cartoon villain. But to be fair, it's kinda interesting to see Freeza in that role since it's never really been a thing in Dragon Ball, and it seems they're building up to something larger with his new empire. I see it in the same way as Thor: Ragnarok, like yeah, that film kinda spits in the face of the characters' previous appearances by having Thor play "get help" with Loki, but it's meant to be a more lighthearted self-parody. And seeing Freeza trying to get Commander Red's wish and screaming that Paragus was killed by a "stray blast" was pretty damn hilarious to me.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually I prefer the stories where the villain is just, at the end of the day, "the hero of their own story". They might have bad methods, but their intentions are good. Super antagonists are all this, except Moro, but I won't waste any more time talking about him.

Z antagonists are not this. Some of them could have been improved if they were given more nuance. Especially Cell. Cell had the potential to be a decent morally grey villain, because while it's true that he has the genes of Frieza and Vegeta (at that point very evil people), and was programmed to kill Goku, he also had the genes of good people. Plus the Androids also defied their original programming, so it's not like Cell was doomed to be evil.

I'm not saying that Cell should have been redeemed, God No, but I am saying that he could have been a more interesting character. For example, he had the desire to rule over people through fear and terror, which is pretty one-dimensional. Instead he could have had the desire to rule over people to make them perfect or cure them of their imperfections, thus mixing his desire for rule inherited by Frieza with the kindness that Goku has (Goku is a very kind person, who genuinely can't watch people suffer or risk death). In the same vein as Goku can't see people suffer, Cell can't see people living with imperfections. That would've made him more interesting and nuanced and thus a better character.

Which is why I was actually surprised that some people in here are acting like Jiren is the worst Dragon Ball character ever, because he is actually very interesting. He is basically Goku if Goku did not have Dragon Balls and friends, making him a unique sort of antagonist.

[Psajdak]

While I did say that Toppo is better character than Jiren, that doesn't mean that I dislike Jiren, or something like that.

On contrary, I think he is really cool, even if that coolness is based of classic silent, stoic cool guy trope.

His execution, and backstory may not have been the best of all times, but from my point of view, when Jiren starts talking, that actually means something.

[Scsigs]

Yeah blasting Baby into the sun was weak sauce

Baby was in his most badass looking form, too, yet he did not do anything in that despite it showing up in the freaking title sequence

The ending was totally rushed & not as satisfying as it should've been. Like, Baby making Vegeta an Oozaru should've been part of the escalation of power, not the main event. I think what would've been great is if we get Baby getting more powerful & his mutation of Vegeta's body to look like his pure form, then the Oozaru, then we find out that Baby's been controlling Vegeta's body from the outside like a remote control (which would have a visual cue somewhere during the fight with a background detail you only really notice on a rewatch), then Goku fights pure form Baby at his most powerful & Baby could take some cues from Cell (whom he would've learned about from Vegeta, Gohan, & Piccolo's memories, which, yeah, Piccolo would be in this arc a lot earlier than the last episode where Earth blows up with no indication on where he was) & use the techniques of the others against him, which would wear Goku down even more than the fight with Baby Vegeta did, which is where the power-up from the others would come from.
Also, get Majuub to purify the others rather than have Kibitoshin reference the stupid Z filler with the Super Holy Water, or whatever it's called. From there, with his powers rebooted, Goku begins Round 2 proper with Baby.
Also, have Trunks & Goten fuse into grown-up/older teen Gotenks as back-up. I can't be the only one who watched those episodes on Toonami as a kid & thought it was genuinely fucking stupid that they referenced Fusion, then had Uub want to fuse with someone, only for Gohan to shoot him down on doing so. I think that was during the fight with Omega Shenron because of SS4 Gogeta. This would then remind Goku of the technique & change who suggests it during that fight (it makes NO sense that Vegeta would suggest it because he's had no character development to have him mature in that direction, yet Goku's always been up for it since it was introduced). With Gohan mostly depowered from the Goku power-up & most likely no Senzu Beans, Majuub & Gotenks would be the best candidates for back-up.
So, we have SS4 Goku, SS3 teen Gotenks, & Majuub fighting pure Baby, who's absorbed the raw powers of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, & Vegeta & has memorized their techniques, leading to interesting fight scenes.

How would we end this then?
Well, Goku, being the combat specialist he is, would come up with a plan to analyze Baby's fight style, which, since his name is Baby, he could be quick to anger & make go out of control outside of Vegeta's body, which would be his fatal character flaw. Goku would tell Majuub & Gotenks to keep Baby on his toes as much as they can & not focus on winning, which they'd be confused about at first, but go along with it because they trust him. Then, Goku waits for a prime opportunity to demoralize Baby when it looks like he's losing against supposedly weaker foes, one of whom is a half-Saiyan, whom he was specifically bred to kill & be stronger than. Uub would see this as similar to what Goku did to him at the tournament years before & realize what he's doing. Vegeta would at some point wake up after being turned back to normal & explain what Goku's doing to everyone else on the sidelines, cluing the audience if they hadn't figured it out yet.
So, we have Baby getting more & more angry at the fact that he's losing, despite the fact that he should be stronger. Then, we get Baby going ballistic similar to how Fat & Kid Buu did, where his rage made him even more angry & he just goes HAM on them, beating Majuub & knocking him down for the count, then knocking out Gotenks, which then causes them to defuse. He turns his sights on Goku with a smirk of confidence & Goku's ready, reminding Baby that those 2 weren't nearly as strong as he is in SS4 (could be a bluff), then Goku could do what he did to Janemba in Fusion Reborn & repeatedly insult Baby while fighting him & even getting hit by him, which don't really hurt him, but he repeatedly shows he's been hurt before walking back on it. We then get Baby stopping for a second, collecting himself because he's figured out what Goku's doing & they begin fighting once again, with Baby in a more controlled manner.
With Goten, Trunk, & Majuub recovered by Gohan, the others have to come up with a way to help Goku, since he can't hold SS4 forever, as the previous battle showed, & the power-up just reset the clock on it. That's when Vegeta comes up with a plan to beat Baby. He contacts Dende & Popo, who wouldn't be taken over by Baby, but couldn't do anything to stop him taking over everyone on Earth & has him heal them. Goku's been paying attention to this as all of them fly to his & Baby's battle. He manages to anger Baby again with the fact that he's been one step ahead of him this entire time, despite all of Baby's prep time & the fact that he was created to avenge his creators. All the while, we get Vegeta, Trunks, & Bra powering up a father-son-daughter Galick Gun, while Goten & Gohan would power up a father-sons Kamehameha. They fire the blasts & Baby tries to overpower them with a barrier, but can't. He gets wiped from existence similar to Cell & delivers a similar final word of needing to avenge his people, like Cell being perfect.

Obviously, there are things I couldn't think of & things that need to be changed from the beginning of GT fundamentally, but I think this is a better way for the arc to go than how it actually went. Baby is actually my favorite villain from GT because he's not a rehash of anything from a previous show, outside of his origin being similar to Cell's, & it's actually pretty good for there to have been a contingency plan by the Tuffles to take down the Saiyans when they took over their planet years prior. He just had a terrible ending for his saga. I can understand why the arc was rushed, since the writers changed directions midway through the hunt for the Black Star Dragon Balls because they felt it wasn't working, so they probably didn't have many episodes left, but the original ending is underwhelming all things considered. I loved the build-up, though. Baby slowly taking over each of the remaining Saiyans on Earth & turning them against Goku is a great idea (that they technically stole from Z filler, but whatever).
How'd I do?

[Psajdak]

Maybe even more than Dragon Ball anime continuation, for now, I really wish someone brought us every Toriyama anime that was left without translation, like both Dr. Slump series.

I once read something about Toei thinking of putting their own YT channel with English, and Chinese subtitles.

Dragon Ball always felt kinda incomplete without Dr. Slump to me.

[sunsetshimmer]

Maybe even more than Dragon Ball anime continuation, for now, I really wish someone brought us every Toriyama anime that was left without translation, like both Dr. Slump series.

I once read something about Toei thinking of putting their own YT channel with English, and Chinese subtitles.

Dragon Ball always felt kinda incomplete without Dr. Slump to me.

I'd like to watch Dr. Slump remake, the one that was aired after GT

[DBZAOTA482]

Toppo is better character than Jiren.

Ribrianne is better than Jiren

Naw. Ribrianne is obnoxious and stupid. Jiren is just boring.

I'd rather be bored than annoyed.

[PurestEvil]

Naw. Ribrianne is obnoxious and stupid.

Ironic, that is, in fact, the reason why I like her so much.

[WittyUsername]

You know what? An unpopular opinion I’ve recently realized I have is that I don’t like the use of insert songs in the anime. I don’t mean that the songs themselves are bad (although I don’t really care for most of them), but I think they’re somewhat out of place. In general, I’m usually not a fan of including background music that has singing in it. I’d rather all the music be orchestral. The one exception for me might be Ultimate Battle, , but even then, I think that’s used one too many times.