Unpopular DB opinions

[In Brightest Day]

I don't think the characters view him as the perpetual loser but I also don't think they would give him a spot on the team of what is literally supposed to be made up of the best warriors in the universe. Yamcha is interesting but not that interesting, and it's not just the Saibaimen. He has lost pretty much every fight. The only ones he won were filler.

Yamcha was about to be given a spot on the team though, until Goku returned with Freeza (Tenshinhan even believed that’s where Goku had been the whole time) so plainly that isn’t true.

In universe, nobody is rolling their eyes (like the fandom) going “oh Yamcha, what a loser” or whatever - the fact that he was strong enough to be there in the first place is what actually matters. That’s a post-“Yamcha is a meme” perception issue, but it doesn’t hold weight when actually talking about the series.

And let’s be real here: if Yamcha shouldn’t be included, then Krillin and Tien had absolutely no business being on the team at all either (let alone Roshi, of all people). If you don’t care about power levels, that has to cut both ways when most of your argument here has been built on that premise.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on whether Yamcha is interesting enough in a narative sense to be on the team.

There's plenty to play with 17 and I like what they did. He doesn't like people but he has a family and it's his wish that proves mortal's worth to the gods. It's a great organic juxtaposition.

Fair enough.

I fail to see how the term you insist on using applies in this case.

Just to clarify, I thought the story they told was fine, but how they got there felt ham-fisted and really only happened because the author wanted it to happen - not because it made any sense in universe for the characters (namely Goku) to ever consider 17 an option, since he’s essentially been dead for several years and Goku never had anything to do with him anyway.

I also just don’t think it was a story that needed to be told to begin with.

Because?

Because I think your opinion is fairly popular in the fandom, so I wouldn’t really consider it “unpopular” or controversial.

[Scsigs]

Yeah, its rather disappointing, I'd drop my money on a Dragon Box reprint, even if its just SD Blu Ray with none of the goodies like the books.

Exactly. Even just putting the Dragon Box masters on DVDs in regular packaging would've been nice, but nope. Can't get anything nice.

[ABED]

I don't think the characters view him as the perpetual loser but I also don't think they would give him a spot on the team of what is literally supposed to be made up of the best warriors in the universe. Yamcha is interesting but not that interesting, and it's not just the Saibaimen. He has lost pretty much every fight. The only ones he won were filler.

Yamcha was about to be given a spot on the team though, until Goku returned with Freeza (Tenshinhan even believed that’s where Goku had been the whole time) so plainly that isn’t true.

In universe, nobody is rolling their eyes (like the fandom) going “oh Yamcha, what a loser” or whatever - the fact that he was strong enough to be there in the first place is what actually matters. That’s a post-“Yamcha is a meme” perception issue, but it doesn’t hold weight when actually talking about the series.

And let’s be real here: if Yamcha shouldn’t be included, then Krillin and Tien had absolutely no business being on the team at all either (let alone Roshi, of all people). If you don’t care about power levels, that has to cut both ways when most of your argument here has been built on that premise.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on whether Yamcha is interesting enough in a narative sense to be on the team.

There's plenty to play with 17 and I like what they did. He doesn't like people but he has a family and it's his wish that proves mortal's worth to the gods. It's a great organic juxtaposition.

Fair enough.

I fail to see how the term you insist on using applies in this case.

Just to clarify, I thought the story they told was fine, but how they got there felt ham-fisted and really only happened because the author wanted it to happen - not because it made any sense in universe for the characters (namely Goku) to ever consider 17 an option, since he’s essentially been dead for several years and Goku never had anything to do with him anyway.

I also just don’t think it was a story that needed to be told to begin with.

Because?

Because I think your opinion is fairly popular in the fandom, so I wouldn’t really consider it “unpopular” or controversial.

It makes NO sense to even consider Yamcha when you're fighting for survival. If Buu keeps falling asleep/hybernating, it's not like it would be hard to remember 17 is an option. He wasn't dead. He was wished back and they all knew it. Perhaps it shouldn't be Goku to suggest it (i don't recall who did) but 17 makes all the sense in the world. Way more than Muten Roshi or Tenshinhan and definitely more sense than Yamcha.

My argument isn't built on battle powers. He has never won a damn fight. The meme is an exaggeration but it has a basis in truth. How many fights can you name that he's actually won? And if you want to consider this purely from a perspective of character, what is there really left to tell with him? Getting back into martial arts after quitting? We've already told that story through Kuririn.

Them considering Yamcha was not a dramatic statement. It was the set up for a running gag of Yamcha being a loser. They don't consider him for anything and just as it looks like they are about to, a better option arrives and thus the joke is paid off.

This isn't about power scaling, but in a story about strength and improving, we can't pretend that it doesn't matter at all on a story level. you could bring Yamcha onto the team but I wouldn't give him 17's spot. Muten Roshi's spot makes more sense since the old man already had a fully realized arc.

[Planetnamek]

i think i've said this before but when watching some random Z ep with my boyfriend, he said he thought nozawa sounded too deep as adult goku, which is probably a hotter take then most have ever had.

i've been (and most here have i imagine) in too many debates regarding whether or not a 70 80 year old women should still be voicing a character like goku that i honestly kinda just tune it out. nozawa is always gonna be my goku, and i think a lot of criticism towards her is kinda bs, but i can't really blame anyone for having trouble adjusting to her or even not liking her performance, as long as it's deeper then just "She's An Old Lady!".

I respect her performance and have nothing against her, I just grew up with Goku sounding like well a dude, so anything else sounds extremely jarring to me as i'm too used to dub Goku. Nothing against women voicing guys in media(had no clue Tara Strong voiced so many boys in animated shows and it was years before I realized all the boys on the Simpsons were voiced by women)it's certainly preferable to guys voicing female characters(which is one of the main reasons why I was never able to get into Bob's Burgers, Tina and Linda's voices sound so awkward and cringey that it takes me right out of the show and makes it impossible for me to care about them) but in the case of Goku it just sounds strange to me.

[Scsigs]

I think I've said this before but when watching some random Z ep with my boyfriend, he said he thought Nozawa sounded too deep as adult Goku, which is probably a hotter take than most have ever had.

I've been (and most here have i imagine) in too many debates regarding whether or not a 70 80 year old women should still be voicing a character like Goku that i honestly kinda just tune it out. Nozawa is always gonna be my Goku, and i think a lot of criticism towards her is kinda BS, but i can't really blame anyone for having trouble adjusting to her or even not liking her performance, as long as it's deeper than just "She's An Old Lady!".

My problem isn't that I can't adjust, especially when I know I'll need to when watching it in a different language. My problem is that the voice isn't pleasing to my ears. I've adjusted to different voice actors a lot for DB. The majority of the Kai recastings, I've been very surprised by & like, or have been ok with. If your argument is a dismissive, "You grew up with the English voices," I'm gonna have to tell you to fuck off.

I respect her performance and have nothing against her, I just grew up with Goku sounding like well a dude, so anything else sounds extremely jarring to me as i'm too used to dub Goku. Nothing against women voicing guys in media (had no clue Tara Strong voiced so many boys in animated shows and it was years before I realized all the boys on the Simpsons were voiced by women) it's certainly preferable to guys voicing female characters (which is one of the main reasons why I was never able to get into Bob's Burgers, Tina and Linda's voices sound so awkward and cringey that it takes me right out of the show and makes it impossible for me to care about them) but in the case of Goku it just sounds strange to me.

Dudes voicing women who still sound like dudes is always cringy to me. Bob's Burgers has always been a mix of boring & cringe to me when it comes to its comedy. Women voicing boys is fine, since they can keep that voice tone longer than actual boys.

[Soppa Saia People]

well it's a good thing i said it's totally fine if you just don't like her voice as goku...

[SupremeKai25]

i think i've said this before but when watching some random Z ep with my boyfriend, he said he thought nozawa sounded too deep as adult goku, which is probably a hotter take then most have ever had.

i've been (and most here have i imagine) in too many debates regarding whether or not a 70 80 year old women should still be voicing a character like goku that i honestly kinda just tune it out. nozawa is always gonna be my goku, and i think a lot of criticism towards her is kinda bs, but i can't really blame anyone for having trouble adjusting to her or even not liking her performance, as long as it's deeper then just "She's An Old Lady!".

Ironically "She's an old lady!" is the reason why I loved her as Goku Black.

There's something incredibly ominous and unsettling about hearing a genocidal antagonist voiced by an old lady. I say this in a good way, a brilliant antagonist is meant to feel ominous and unsettling.

While the dub was great too, of course, the sub is just more memorable/unique. I mean, how many male fictional antagonists are voiced by an old lady? Her performance as Goku Black definitely stands out.

I'm neutral about Goku though. I don't care about him, so he could be voiced by a literal monkey and I still wouldn't care. When I find Goku annoying, it's because of the things he says/does, not because of his voice. I'd find him annoying in the dub too.

[PurestEvil]

Ironically "She's an old lady!" is the reason why I loved her as Goku Black.

There's something incredibly ominous and unsettling about hearing a genocidal antagonist voiced by an old lady. I say this in a good way, a brilliant antagonist is meant to feel ominous and unsettling.

I freaking loved Masako-san as Goku Black. She absolutely nailed that sinister tone and soft voice. When put next to Goku's more childlike and energetic voice, it shows how utterly disturbing the perversion of Goku's body by Zamasu really is. It is honestly my favorite aspect of Goku Black.

[MasenkoHA]

If people didn’t know Masako Nozawa was an old woman how many people would legit use that against her performance?

Yes you can obviously tell Goku is voiced by a woman but Nozawa doesn’t voice him like a female character much like voice him like an old woman.

[PurestEvil]

If people didn’t know Masako Nozawa was an old woman how many people would legit use that against her performance?

Yes you can obviously tell Goku is voiced by a woman but Nozawa doesn’t voice him like a female character much like voice him like an old woman.

When I watched the latter half of the RoF film (first time hearing DB in Japanese), I remembered that I could tell that Goku was voiced by a woman, but also presumed that she was doing an impression of a boy. I did not expect her to be 80 years old, though.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

As someone whose grandmother is turning 80 very soon I can say Nozawa's Goku sounds nothing like a woman of that age. It just sounds like Goku.

[Hellspawn28]

When I first Goku's Japanese voice, I didn't care. People who were watching Dragon Ball before it was dubbed, never said anything bad about Goku's voice. The Cartoon Network generation of DB fans later became vocal about Masako Nozawa's voice in the mid 2000s when most of them saw clips of the Japanese version on Youtube. I feel like the North American DB fandom has a toxic masculinity problem where they feel like Goku has to be this macho superhero character because that's the version that they grew up with. When in reality, Goku as a character was never like that and they refuse to accept it.

[Yuli Ban]

I know it's been said before, but I find it the height of irony when 1999-2003 dub purists lambast "Grandma Goku" but say Linda Young is the "true" voice of Freeza.

[Planetnamek]

I know it's been said before, but I find it the height of irony when 1999-2003 dub purists lambast "Grandma Goku" but say Linda Young is the "true" voice of Freeza.

It's honestly weird for me to hear Freeza sound more masculine in Kai after being so used to the more high-pitched voice. For Freeza IMO it makes sense for him to sound high-pitched because of his more androgynous appearance(I had no clue he was a dude until many years later), for Goku less so, that's the best explanation I can offer.

[In Brightest Day]

It makes NO sense to even consider Yamcha when you're fighting for survival.

Master Roshi was on the team tho...

If Buu keeps falling asleep/hybernating, it's not like it would be hard to remember 17 is an option. He wasn't dead. He was wished back and they all knew it. Perhaps it shouldn't be Goku to suggest it (i don't recall who did) but 17 makes all the sense in the world. Way more than Muten Roshi or Tenshinhan and definitely more sense than Yamcha.

Unfortunately, for the argument you’re trying to make, Goku was the one to suggest it.

If Toyotarou was dead-set on 17 returning, I would have preferred if 18 and Krillin broached the subject themselves (remaining in at least loose contact, even if it was strained, makes more sense than “oh yeah, I totally forgot I had a brother. Thanks for the suggestion Goku!”) or alternatively, have Piccolo suggest him as a nod to their fight in the Android arc.

Also, “Majin Boo fell asleep again!” is quickly becoming one of the least funny gags in the series.

My argument isn't built on battle powers. He has never won a damn fight. The meme is an exaggeration but it has a basis in truth. How many fights can you name that he's actually won? And if you want to consider this purely from a perspective of character, what is there really left to tell with him? Getting back into martial arts after quitting? We've already told that story through Kuririn.

I don’t really understand the distinction you’re trying to make, sorry - you’re saying Yamcha lost to guys because his opponents happened to have a higher power level than him (happens to literally every character in the story), which only happened because Toriyama needed an established, reputable fighter to make us take Goku’s next rival or antagonist seriously, and usually that ended up being Yamcha, because AT needed Krillin, Piccolo or Tien to fill another roll in the story, at that moment.

It had nothing to do with intentionally making the reader view Yamcha as lesser than his contemporaries, nor did the characters in universe and, as an aside, that wouldn’t be a realistic attitude in the real world anyway - the number 5 ranked UFC fighter isn’t shit because he got knocked out by number 3 and the idea of someone expressing such a viewpoint would be down right laughable. With that said, I just don’t think your argument is quite the nuanced take you think it is.

Them considering Yamcha was not a dramatic statement. It was the set up for a running gag of Yamcha being a loser. They don't consider him for anything and just as it looks like they are about to, a better option arrives and thus the joke is paid off.

I wouldn’t call it a “dramatic statement” necessarily, but that certainly wasn’t my interpretation of the scene either. In any event, whether it was a wink to the reader from Toyotaro or not, it literally doesn’t mean anything to the story itself: The fact is, Tenshinhan earnestly believed Goku was out offering Yamcha a spot on the team and, no one who was present viewed that as unusual or ridiculous in the slightest, so the idea that Yamcha wouldn’t ever be considered for the ToP can easily be dismissed, directly by statements from the Manga. I think Krillin even considered bringing him in too, now that I think about it.

And even if we did live in a world where hypothetical meta jokes overruled in-universe statements, rational and motives, the author still put Master Roshi on the team, so clearly he doesn’t give a shit about writing a consistent story anyway.

This isn't about power scaling, but in a story about strength and improving, we can't pretend that it doesn't matter at all on a story level. you could bring Yamcha onto the team but I wouldn't give him 17's spot. Muten Roshi's spot makes more sense since the old man already had a fully realized arc.

Absolutely they matter, as do any established rules in the fictional universe you’ve created, which is why I whine so much about Roshi’s return extending beyond Resurrection F, as Yamcha actually kept up with Krillin and Tien for all those years.

So, to repeat from a previous post: it wasn’t so much Yamcha specifically being chosen over 17, but that he should have been picked long before Master Roshi was even considered, and that Majin Boo would have been a more sure bet from both a power perspective (the last time anyone saw 17, he was getting his ass handed to him by a guy who the main cast surpassed with one day in the Time Chamber, so why spend precious time looking for him when Boo already said yes?) as well as his willingness to protect the people he cares about - Freeza also fulfilled the wildcard role better than 17 too.

More than that, I personally don’t think the main cast would consider 17 in the first place and, even if they did, realistically they probably wouldn’t think he’d be interested anyway. I mean, he somehow became strong enough to fight Super Saiyan Gods, so where was he when Majin Boo started decimating the world he supposedly cares so much about? Or during the events of Battle of Gods and RoF? It was just a ham-fisted story.

I would have been fine with him coming back in a more minor role (e.g. Yamcha and Chaozu’s brief comeback against Moro’s henchmen) or at least write his integral role in a way that feels less forced. Either way, I still think his return was unnecessary.

18 would have been a much more organic choice for 17s role in the ToP arc anyway. It would avoid:

A. The clunky story we actually got, while still hitting all the same important thematic points and

B. The same representation issues DBZ has had for years now. 18 needing instruction from her brother in using her infinite stamina strategically, was extremely painful viewing.

[ABED]

First, I'm only talking about the anime and Yamcha maybe being included on the team is absolutely meant to be played for laughs. We know this because Yamcha is waiting around for Goku to tell him he's part of the team. He's not exactly humble about it either. This is not meant to be ambiguous. This is clearly poking fun at Yamcha

But more fundamentally, forget about power. You have to look at the characters and their function in the story. Yamcha makes it to Kaio's in far less time than Goku does but because he's not the main character, it is never portrayed as some big accomplishment. Yamcha's role as being the guy to set up Goku's next big opponent ended when he lost to Tenshinhan at the 22nd TB. After that, his role is that of the sacrificial lamb. Hell, even his battle against the Saibaiman was kinda pathetic. He makes a good showing but he dies due to his own arrogance. Your analogy to a no. 5 ranking UFC fighter doesn't hold water as the last time he had that level of credibility was the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. After losing so many times he loses credibility. I don't watch MMA but I am a wrestling fan, so I'll use an example from this world to show what I mean. Mick Foley was one of the top good guys during a very popular era. He was even the world champ a few times. Towards the end of his career, he was the guy who would help get the bad guys to the next level. It worked like gangbusters for HHH and Randy Orton. Their matches showed a different side of both men, but Foley kept losing. After a certain point, defeating Foley ceased to mean what it once did considering it was done so often. Yamcha at some point became someone the audience had a connection with but could be injured or offed at any moment and it not feel like schmuck bait. Super just took that idea further and turned it into a joke.

What I find odd is that you put so much emphasis on power, seemingly well above theme, story, and character, but think 17's inclusion doesn't make sense. I don't see how Goku being the one to suggest it is inherently illogical, though. There are better ways to get to 17 joining but it's still a solid idea. About the only place to go for Yamcha is to have him actually eliminate someone in the tournament of power, but considering Yamcha is still more or less retired by the end of DBZ and there were already several other fighters who had been pseudo-retired and whose love of martial arts had been reignited, I don't see what value Yamcha brings.

Absolutely they matter, as do any established rules in the fictional universe you’ve created, which is why I whine so much about Roshi’s return extending beyond Resurrection F, as Yamcha actually kept up with Krillin and Tien for all those years.

They don't matter nearly to the extent you make it seem. The rules of a story aren't like that of a game. They are mutable. Yamcha's power may have kept up with Kuririn and Tenshinhan, that's debatable, but his function in the story sure didn't. Story, them, character - these are elements that carry far more weight in the narrative

18 would have been a much more organic choice for 17s role in the ToP arc anyway. It would avoid:

A. The clunky story we actually got, while still hitting all the same important thematic points and

But Yamcha's inclusion is organic? 18 is a different character than 17 with a different personality. She's not portrayed as being cynical towards humanity.

[SupremeKai25]

Ironically "She's an old lady!" is the reason why I loved her as Goku Black.

There's something incredibly ominous and unsettling about hearing a genocidal antagonist voiced by an old lady. I say this in a good way, a brilliant antagonist is meant to feel ominous and unsettling.

I freaking loved Masako-san as Goku Black. She absolutely nailed that sinister tone and soft voice. When put next to Goku's more childlike and energetic voice, it shows how utterly disturbing the perversion of Goku's body by Zamasu really is. It is honestly my favorite aspect of Goku Black.

Yes. That's not to take away from Sean's performance, that was also very good. I love how he talks in a British accent, because Marsters (Zamasu's voice actor) also has a British accent. So not only does that make Black sound very posh, snob, and polite compared to Goku, but it also hints at Black's real identity as the Supreme Kai Zamasu.

But I think something similar happened in the sub. I'm not an expert on the subject so I'll just copy-paste the wikia:

At first, Black refers to himself with the formal pronoun Watashi (私), similar to Zamasu. Upon ascending to his Super Saiyan Rosé form, however, he adopts the more masculine, assertive pronoun ore (俺). Finally, after fusing with Zamasu to become Fused Zamasu, the merged entity refers to himself with either the self-appreciating phrase Kono Zamasu (このザマス, "this Zamasu") or the highly formal, poetic pronoun ware (我).

So I like what the sub did too, where Black initially addresses himself with a formal pronoun (to highlight that he is polite and formal like Zamasu, and isn't uneducated like Goku). Then when he achieves Super Saiyan Rosé he switches to the more assertive pronoun, signifying his growing control over Goku's body.

[FortuneSSJ]

SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus in BOG Movie is one the lamest DBZ Movie fights. It's underwhelming due the bad choreography and direction.
Despite the art/animation problems, DBS episode 5 has the best version of that fight.

[Hellspawn28]

I know it's been said before, but I find it the height of irony when 1999-2003 dub purists lambast "Grandma Goku" but say Linda Young is the "true" voice of Freeza.

The same people who like to hate on 4kids and Saban for censorship and localization, but still love the Funimation dub of DBZ on CN. Saban and 4kids did do a shitty job with their anime releases, but I feel like Funimation was not much better. They somehow get a free pass despite Funimation used to be one of the most hated anime companies by anime fans in the late 90s and early 2000s.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think its because they improved their anime work with other anime. Their other anime releases are awesome.