Unpopular DB opinions

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I take offense that you seem to think the world revolves around the Funimation dub. Sure, I admit I also was about to agree with you by saying, "Those could have been Funimation fans" to ABED but not everything revolves around that little company in Texas. What would you have said to someone with NO exposure to Funimation? Like a Japanese fan?

I don't think the world revolves around Funi. But Funimation's dub is what North Americans were exposed to and it's the dub meat heads at my local gym likely think of when they think Dragon Ball. They don't think of Goku as some energetic hillbilly, they think of him as some heroic badass. Which is my point.

And if I were talking to a Japanese person I probably wouldn't bring up Dragon Ball in the first place.

EDIT: I don't even like the Funimation dub! I think it was terrible. But quality and "faithfullness" aren't strongly correlated with popularity and it's important to remember that. Look at what happened to the 2011 Thundercats revival.

[MasenkoHA]

Even through the dub, I think Goku's basic motivation shines through and is clear. That's what appeals to people in those gyms. Gyms are all about pushing yourself to your limits and beyond.

I’ve honestly never known a single person outside of Internet forums to get hung up on the “paragon of justice”’ thing Funi attempted in 1999/2000 most people like Goku because, as you said, he’s always pushing himself to be better. Same reason Vegeta is hugely popular.

Never known an actual person who just thought “Hope of the universe” really spoke out to them.

[Kinokima]

Even through the dub, I think Goku's basic motivation shines through and is clear. That's what appeals to people in those gyms. Gyms are all about pushing yourself to your limits and beyond.

I’ve honestly never known a single person outside of Internet forums to get hung up on the “paragon of justice”’ thing Funi attempted in 1999/2000 most people like Goku because, as you said, he’s always pushing himself to be better. Same reason Vegeta is hugely popular.

Never known an actual person who just thought “Hope of the universe” really spoke out to them.

Though I once said how much I hated this dub speech on Twitter and someone honestly got really angry at me lol

[MasenkoHA]

Even through the dub, I think Goku's basic motivation shines through and is clear. That's what appeals to people in those gyms. Gyms are all about pushing yourself to your limits and beyond.

I’ve honestly never known a single person outside of Internet forums to get hung up on the “paragon of justice”’ thing Funi attempted in 1999/2000 most people like Goku because, as you said, he’s always pushing himself to be better. Same reason Vegeta is hugely popular.

Never known an actual person who just thought “Hope of the universe” really spoke out to them.

Though I once said how much I hated this dub speech on Twitter and someone honestly got really angry at me lol

They exist, but anime Twitter can be just as nerdy as any online forum. The average Joe Schmoe “Don’t care that the Orange Brick has shitty cropping, don’t notice or care that lines and characters have been redubbed from what aired on Toonami and don’t get into online wars about Faulconer vs Kikuchi or Goku’s characterization in Z vs Super or changes made by the dub being good or bad and could only maybe name one of two dub actor if even that” Dragon Ball Z fan, that type of fan really does not think too hard about that sort of thing.


Hell, Dragon Ball Super is far far more popular and well received amongst more casual fans than it is with the online fandom.

[goku the krump dancer]

They don't think of Goku as some energetic hillbilly, they think of him as some heroic badass. Which is my point.

He's BOTH!

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Even through the dub, I think Goku's basic motivation shines through and is clear. That's what appeals to people in those gyms. Gyms are all about pushing yourself to your limits and beyond.

I’ve honestly never known a single person outside of Internet forums to get hung up on the “paragon of justice”’ thing Funi attempted in 1999/2000 most people like Goku because, as you said, he’s always pushing himself to be better...

Never known an actual person who just thought “Hope of the universe” really spoke out to them.

So people like Goku because he's different from Western protagonists except when they like him because he has a lot of noble qualities. And then only until they like him for pushing his limits and something about waku waku.

But at no point do they like him for behaving like a hero or for being a musclebound meathead.

No one in a gym is responding to Goku's supposed quest to better himself. He had muscles on his muscles, was an underdog in a series filled with buff burly guys, and was made easy to like. Which was the point of my comment to ABED. The "casuals" of the fandom aren't using a post hoc rationalization to justify how they feel towards the series. They like the screaming, they like the badassery, probably indifferent to the sexual assault gags, and probably don't like the slice of life stuff. Goku's "journey" is not something people in meat space think about.

Same reason Vegeta is hugely popular.

Oh come on. If that's why people liked Vegeta Tenshinhan would still be popular.

[MasenkoHA]

Oh come on. If that's why people liked Vegeta Tenshinhan would still be popular.

Tenshinhan was more prominent in Dragon Ball than Z where his screen time was reduced. Even more so in the original broadcast since Funimation cut his re-introduction episode in the original dub and he shows up with Chaozu at The Lookout.

Acting like those two are on the same footing when it comes to the American fandom is ridiculous.

[MyVisionity]

Anyway I like Schemmel as well. I liked him right off the bat. He was a breath of fresh air after Kelamis.

Right off the bat? Even early Season Three Schemmel?

[ABED]

Anyway I like Schemmel as well. I liked him right off the bat. He was a breath of fresh air after Kelamis.

Right off the bat? Even early Season Three Schemmel?

I said I liked him, not that he was great. But generally speaking I enjoyed it.

[SupremeKai25]

Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.

He's a hypocrite... He claims that he can't stand the thought of people getting erased from existence, but then he befriends and fistbumps with an apathetic child who erased an entire multiverse from existence.

I don't see how Goku being friends with Zeno makes him a hypocrite. If we look at it, Zeno IS just a child mentally & doesn't erase universes lightly. You may not agree with his reason he did that, but he did it because he didn't know if they deserved to continue existing. It's a thing in some media dealing with deities to have the gods wondering if the beings under them deserve to live & needing a reason to just not wipe them out, which was the entire point of the Tournament of Power. 17's wish to restore the other universes was what proved to Zeno that not every mortal is awful & there's still some good left in the universes. Again, you don't have to agree (I certainly don't), but it doesn't make Zeno evil, just a chaotic neutral. Goku's a chaotic good, so he's gonna wanna stop that & he's gonna enjoy doing that, hence why he was ecstatic for the tournament. Goku's not a hypocrite for befriending Zeno. He'd be a hypocrite for befriending someone like Freeza or Cell, the chaotic evils of the universe, while they're still evil, though he has a report going with Freeza that's endlessly entertaining.

Because he hates thinking of innocent people getting erased, but then he's friends with someone who's erased TONS of innocent people and never even brings that up, despite it having happened literally in front of his eyes. So Yes that IS hypocritical in itself.

[Scsigs]

Because he hates thinking of innocent people getting erased, but then he's friends with someone who's erased TONS of innocent people and never even brings that up, despite it having happened literally in front of his eyes. So Yes that IS hypocritical in itself.

To be fair, Goku's not as morally consistent as he should be. It should be noted that he didn't wanna kill Freeza or Vegeta, even though he knows they've killed a lot of people over their lives (Frieza even killed Krillin right in front of him), or even the Ginyu Force. The first 2 because he took pity on Freeza & wanted to fight Vegeta again at some point, then the other 5 because they were already defeated. Him being friends with Zeno is pretty on-brand, if you ask me, though I'm assuming you COULD say he's hypocritical in those as well. However, I'm assuming he sees Zeno as a kid mentally, so should be treated like one. Goku's been making friends with people we'd consider irredeemable, or bad literally since the start of the series. Hell, Beerus has wiped out PLANETS of people, or authorized the wiping out of them. I don't know how it isn't more consistent with his character just because Zeno's wiped out universes. How do you call someone who regularly makes friends with morally-gray people & turns them into good people hypocritical? Yamcha, Tien & Chaotzu, Piccolo, Vegeta, Majin Buu, Beerus... Seems like you're forgetting one of Goku's specialties in the show.

And, here's the thing. Would YOU not wanna be on the good side of a morally gray, chaotically neutral being capable of wiping you &/or everything else from existence in the blink of an eye for literally any reason they'd find justified, or even just because? I'd say that makes more sense to do than give them a lecture over their past erasures of parts of reality. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to, but Goku's clearly not in a position to do that. Now, if Zeno were wanting to listen, then he'd have a shot, but I don't believe he does currently, nor does he WANT to. I'd think that'd be more up to someone like Gohan.
I think your problem is more with the fact that him befriending Zeno isn't really addressed at all than him doing so. That's a legit criticism, I think. Would Toriyama, or any other writer in the future, ever wanna address that elephant in the room? I don't think so. While DB has done more smarter stories & storytelling that're meant to make the audience think afterwards & has allowed for some great technical analysis of them, it's just not that deep most of the time. Would I like Goku to self-analyze & address things? Yeah, but it's not likely to happen. Otherwise, we lose what makes Goku himself partly. Goku himself isn't that deep of a character, but he makes up for that with his best traits of being a mostly happy-go-lucky optimist wee like to see go on whatever adventures Toriryama, or other creatives, send him on. It's why other shonen manga authors & shonen anime writers have tired to reverse-engineer his archetype & characterization to varying levels of success since DB became popular. I'm not saying he's perfect & I'm not saying characters like him are without criticism, but to not understand this, I think, is missing the point. Goku befriending people & them becoming good people afterwards, or at least less evil, is a constant. I'd wager that was the entire point of the Tournament of Power, as Zeno doesn't just wipe out all of reality afterwards. Goku having it go through was his way of changing Zeno's mind on the people living under the gods. I think you're wanting Goku to be something he's just not. There are plenty of criticisms to throw his way as a character that are legitimate, but I don't think he's a hypocrite for befriending Zeno, as there are legitimate reasons for him to do so. Gohan is more morally-consistent with how you want Goku to be than Goku actually is.

[Koitsukai]

Because he hates thinking of innocent people getting erased, but then he's friends with someone who's erased TONS of innocent people and never even brings that up, despite it having happened literally in front of his eyes. So Yes that IS hypocritical in itself.

To be fair, Goku's not as morally consistent as he should be. It should be noted that he didn't wanna kill Freeza or Vegeta, even though he knows they've killed a lot of people over their lives (Frieza even killed Krillin right in front of him), or even the Ginyu Force. The first 2 because he took pity on Freeza & wanted to fight Vegeta again at some point, then the other 5 because they were already defeated. Him being friends with Zeno is pretty on-brand, if you ask me, though I'm assuming you COULD say he's hypocritical in those as well. However, I'm assuming he sees Zeno as a kid mentally, so should be treated like one. Goku's been making friends with people we'd consider irredeemable, or bad literally since the start of the series. Hell, Beerus has wiped out PLANETS of people, or authorized the wiping out of them. I don't know how it isn't more consistent with his character just because Zeno's wiped out universes. How do you call someone who regularly makes friends with morally-gray people & turns them into good people hypocritical? Yamcha, Tien & Chaotzu, Piccolo, Vegeta, Majin Buu, Beerus... Seems like you're forgetting one of Goku's specialties in the show.

And, here's the thing. Would YOU not wanna be on the good side of a morally gray, chaotically neutral being capable of wiping you &/or everything else from existence in the blink of an eye for literally any reason they'd find justified, or even just because? I'd say that makes more sense to do than give them a lecture over their past erasures of parts of reality. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to, but Goku's clearly not in a position to do that. Now, if Zeno were wanting to listen, then he'd have a shot, but I don't believe he does currently, nor does he WANT to. I'd think that'd be more up to someone like Gohan.
I think your problem is more with the fact that him befriending Zeno isn't really addressed at all than him doing so. That's a legit criticism, I think. Would Toriyama, or any other writer in the future, ever wanna address that elephant in the room? I don't think so. While DB has done more smarter stories & storytelling that're meant to make the audience think afterwards & has allowed for some great technical analysis of them, it's just not that deep most of the time. Would I like Goku to self-analyze & address things? Yeah, but it's not likely to happen. Otherwise, we lose what makes Goku himself partly. Goku himself isn't that deep of a character, but he makes up for that with his best traits of being a mostly happy-go-lucky optimist wee like to see go on whatever adventures Toriryama, or other creatives, send him on. It's why other shonen manga authors & shonen anime writers have tired to reverse-engineer his archetype & characterization to varying levels of success since DB became popular. I'm not saying he's perfect & I'm not saying characters like him are without criticism, but to not understand this, I think, is missing the point. Goku befriending people & them becoming good people afterwards, or at least less evil, is a constant. I'd wager that was the entire point of the Tournament of Power, as Zeno doesn't just wipe out all of reality afterwards. Goku having it go through was his way of changing Zeno's mind on the people living under the gods. I think you're wanting Goku to be something he's just not. There are plenty of criticisms to throw his way as a character that are legitimate, but I don't think he's a hypocrite for befriending Zeno, as there are legitimate reasons for him to do so. Gohan is more morally-consistent with how you want Goku to be than Goku actually is.

Let me add this, didn't Goku by befriending this multiversal killer help reduce the amount of innocents getting killed by him?

What else is left to do with an entity like Zeno? not engaging him at all could result in your own erasure because he can continue his murdering schedule and who knows if you are not next in line. Opposing him means getting erased... and your universe with you... but a more friendly approach ended up in the salvage of 7 universes.

So the only three options are not doing anything, being mean to the guy and being nice to the guy. The first one, being indifferent sure means you could disappear at any time or you may live 200 more years(basically not giving a fuck), the second one is a warranty of erasure, and the third one is the only approach that could make erasure not happen. Also fits greatly with Goku's biggest superpower, changing people for the better.

I mean, he's not befriending him and going out to play tennis together while Zeno erases universes after a set and then continue enjoying their morning.

[SupremeKai25]

To be fair, Goku's not as morally consistent as he should be.

Precisely, but I don't see where the problem is, it is known that DB is special as its main hero cast is not really "heroic". I'm pretty sure Toriyama even said at one point that Goku simply ISN'T a hero, no matter how much fans and dubs try to portray him as one, he isn't a hero.

In fact note that I didn't say Goku is acting out-of-character, because it's indeed in-character for him to be hypocritical.

Would YOU not wanna be on the good side of a morally gray, chaotically neutral being capable of wiping you &/or everything else from existence in the blink of an eye for literally any reason they'd find justified, or even just because?

If I genuinely couldn't stand the thought of people getting erased, sure, I might try to befriend Zeno (very dangerous and powerful person), but I'd have a lot of problem doing it. Goku is out there fistbumping and smiling and cheering to Zeno like nothing lol (and he does this MOMENTS AFTER he witnessed Zeno erasing an entire multiverse), that's why his behaviour is weird and hypocritical. And as I said earlier that's not a critique of his writing because, as you pointed out, he's the same guy who's best friends with Vegeta (committed mundicide if we go by Toei filler, was still a very scummy dude anyway).

I'd wager that was the entire point of the Tournament of Power, as Zeno doesn't just wipe out all of reality afterwards.

Yeah but that was always his plan from the beginning as the Grand Priest revealed in the end. In that sense Goku didn't change him.

Goku having it go through was his way of changing Zeno's mind on the people living under the gods. I think you're wanting Goku to be something he's just not.

No actually! The fact that the heroes of this show aren't really so heroic is one of the main strengths of Dragon Ball, it makes it less generic.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

If I genuinely couldn't stand the thought of people getting erased, sure, I might try to befriend Zeno (very dangerous and powerful person), but I'd have a lot of problem doing it. Goku is out there fistbumping and smiling and cheering to Zeno like nothing lol (and he does this MOMENTS AFTER he witnessed Zeno erasing an entire multiverse), that's why his behaviour is weird and hypocritical. And as I said earlier that's not a critique of his writing because, as you pointed out, he's the same guy who's best friends with Vegeta (committed mundicide if we go by Toei filler, was still a very scummy dude anyway).

There are a lot of weird rationalizations going on around Zeno and the Tournament of Power. The obvious conclusion to draw from them is that Goku is amoral and mostly apathetic towards others. He's bothered by learning that bad things are happening but bad things alone don't really phase him. He's like someone who's bothered that a kid on a skateboard got run over in front of their house but doesn't care if it's happening frequently in his neighborhood.

Which is fine. That's the character and while I think it's kinda dull, it's what the fans jerk off to. What actually bothers me is the fandom going a step further by trying to argue that the Goku's attitude is the correct one and that it demonstrates that Goku really is a moral, ethical person. It's trying to have things both ways. If people honestly prefer Goku to be the way he is, then his actions shouldn't need defending. Let them stand as they are.

EDIT: Same deal with the idea that Goku is some sort of positive influence on the people around him or that he's made them less evil. That's bull. Yamcha rose to the occasion when he saw Bulma about to be killed. Tenshinhan abandoned the path of the assassin when Tsurusennin insulted his pride as a martial artist. Piccolo was all Gohan. Vegeta? Stayed evil until he realized his actions were jeaopardizing his family. The only person Goku helped grow was Krillin and Krillin wasn't really a villain. He was just a dickhead.

Goku doesn't have nearly as many positive qualities as the fandom thinks he has. Which, again, is fine. Let the amoral lead be amoral. But let's stop pretending he's something he's not.

[ABED]

(and he does this MOMENTS AFTER he witnessed Zeno erasing an entire multiverse)

A multiverse in a timeline that had been infected by Zamasu. The timeline was gone either way.

[SupremeKai25]

(and he does this MOMENTS AFTER he witnessed Zeno erasing an entire multiverse)

A multiverse in a timeline that had been infected by Zamasu. The timeline was gone either way.

The souls in the Otherworld weren't gone until Zeno decided to erase everything.

[ABED]

(and he does this MOMENTS AFTER he witnessed Zeno erasing an entire multiverse)

A multiverse in a timeline that had been infected by Zamasu. The timeline was gone either way.

The souls in the Otherworld weren't gone until Zeno decided to erase everything.

What are you talking about?

[Scsigs]

(and he does this MOMENTS AFTER he witnessed Zeno erasing an entire multiverse)

A multiverse in a timeline that had been infected by Zamasu. The timeline was gone either way.

The souls in the Otherworld weren't gone until Zeno decided to erase everything.

What? Is it me, or isn't Otherworld on a different dimensional plain than Universe 7?

[SupremeKai25]

A multiverse in a timeline that had been infected by Zamasu. The timeline was gone either way.

The souls in the Otherworld weren't gone until Zeno decided to erase everything.

What are you talking about?

You know ALL of existence was erased, right? It's even shown that the Time Ring itself blew up, because the entire timeline and all organisms in it was annihilated. This includes the Otherworld and all souls of the dead.

[ABED]

The souls in the Otherworld weren't gone until Zeno decided to erase everything.

What are you talking about?

You know ALL of existence was erased, right? It's even shown that the Time Ring itself blew up, because the entire timeline and all organisms in it was annihilated. This includes the Otherworld and all souls of the dead.

I fail to see what your fundamental issue is. Zamasu had merged with that timeline's reality. It was a goner either way.