Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 30, 2021 2:15 pm

In movie 3, he's not rejecting his Saiyan heritage. He's rejecting the notion that because he's a Saiyan, he's a conqueror. Other than the initial shock, being a Saiyan was never an issue for him.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun May 30, 2021 2:23 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:15 pm In movie 3, he's not rejecting his Saiyan heritage. He's rejecting the notion that because he's a Saiyan, he's a conqueror. Other than the initial shock, being a Saiyan was never an issue for him.
Yes, as in the thing with the Saiyans being a race of blood thirsty barbaric warriors which due to circumstances he lost that side and became the person we know him as. Goku rejects this part of it, though him being one in abscence of the brutal nature of most of the others he doesn't have a problem with or in general his Saiyan name either though Vegeta for the most part is really one of the only people to actually call him by it.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 30, 2021 2:56 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:15 pm In movie 3, he's not rejecting his Saiyan heritage. He's rejecting the notion that because he's a Saiyan, he's a conqueror. Other than the initial shock, being a Saiyan was never an issue for him.
I mean, he does specifically say “I’m not a Saiyan, I’m an Earthling!” Being a Saiyan was obviously never an issue for Goku in the manga, but there are occasions where Toei’s Goku is shown rejecting his Saiyan heritage.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 30, 2021 2:59 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:56 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:15 pm In movie 3, he's not rejecting his Saiyan heritage. He's rejecting the notion that because he's a Saiyan, he's a conqueror. Other than the initial shock, being a Saiyan was never an issue for him.
I mean, he does specifically say “I’m not a Saiyan, I’m an Earthling!” Being a Saiyan was obviously never an issue for Goku in the manga, but there are occasions where Toei’s Goku is shown rejecting his Saiyan heritage.
Because it's a quick and efficient way to say it instead of "I have no problem with being a Saiyan, but just because I am one by birth, that doesn't mean I am destined to be a conqueror!"
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 30, 2021 3:07 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:59 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:56 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:15 pm In movie 3, he's not rejecting his Saiyan heritage. He's rejecting the notion that because he's a Saiyan, he's a conqueror. Other than the initial shock, being a Saiyan was never an issue for him.
I mean, he does specifically say “I’m not a Saiyan, I’m an Earthling!” Being a Saiyan was obviously never an issue for Goku in the manga, but there are occasions where Toei’s Goku is shown rejecting his Saiyan heritage.
Because it's a quick and efficient way to say it instead of "I have no problem with being a Saiyan, but just because I am one by birth, that doesn't mean I am destined to be a conqueror!"
The line seems like a clear indication that Goku in that movie values his Earthling identity over his Saiyan identity. It’s a far cry from Toriyama’s Goku, who has always been perfectly fine with telling people that he’s a Saiyan, and who has never shown any aversion to being referred to by his Saiyan name.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 30, 2021 3:10 pm

I wasn't arguing that he doesn't value one over the other. The issue is whether he has an issue with being a Saiyan. He doesn't have an issue with the facts. His issue is with the idea that it determines his character. He is a Saiyan by birth but not in character. he's not a savage or a conqueror. Notice that Vegeta calls him Kakarrot because that's his Saiyan name whereas Tullece is telling him he's a Saiyan and that means he's like him. There's a reason Tullece looks exactly like Goku. The film is making a point.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 30, 2021 3:22 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:10 pm I wasn't arguing that he doesn't value one over the other. The issue is whether he has an issue with being a Saiyan. He doesn't have an issue with the facts. His issue is with the idea that it determines his character. He is a Saiyan by birth but not in character. he's not a savage or a conqueror. Notice that Vegeta calls him Kakarrot because that's his Saiyan name whereas Tullece is telling him he's a Saiyan and that means he's like him.
All I can say is that when it comes to manga Goku, he’s never had a moment where he rejects his Saiyan label or emphasizes that he views himself as an Earthling. He’s even used his Saiyan heritage to justify his love for battle. He obviously doesn’t care for the conquest aspect of being a Saiyan, but he doesn’t really get into philosophical debates about his identity. Toriyama’s Goku is generally a more simple character than Toei’s Goku.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 30, 2021 5:28 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:22 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:10 pm I wasn't arguing that he doesn't value one over the other. The issue is whether he has an issue with being a Saiyan. He doesn't have an issue with the facts. His issue is with the idea that it determines his character. He is a Saiyan by birth but not in character. he's not a savage or a conqueror. Notice that Vegeta calls him Kakarrot because that's his Saiyan name whereas Tullece is telling him he's a Saiyan and that means he's like him.
All I can say is that when it comes to manga Goku, he’s never had a moment where he rejects his Saiyan label or emphasizes that he views himself as an Earthling. He’s even used his Saiyan heritage to justify his love for battle. He obviously doesn’t care for the conquest aspect of being a Saiyan, but he doesn’t really get into philosophical debates about his identity. Toriyama’s Goku is generally a more simple character than Toei’s Goku.
Yes, he doesn't get into debates hence why he's not long winded. He's not rejecting the label. I don't know how many times I have to say this, he's rejecting the deterministic notion that he is just like Tullece deep down. If he doesn't show that he rejects his label, it's not because Toei didn't understand him, it's because the villain didn't view him as a Saiyan by nature. Movie 3 ends with the heroes talking about how Goku could've turned out just like Tullece had he not hit his head. That's the point of Tullece being his doppelganger.

As I recall he does initially reject the idea after first finding out about it.

He did tell Bahta that he was a Saiyan raised on Earth. So we see that he clearly views himself now as a Saiyan by birth, but Earthling by choice.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 30, 2021 6:13 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 5:28 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:22 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:10 pm I wasn't arguing that he doesn't value one over the other. The issue is whether he has an issue with being a Saiyan. He doesn't have an issue with the facts. His issue is with the idea that it determines his character. He is a Saiyan by birth but not in character. he's not a savage or a conqueror. Notice that Vegeta calls him Kakarrot because that's his Saiyan name whereas Tullece is telling him he's a Saiyan and that means he's like him.
All I can say is that when it comes to manga Goku, he’s never had a moment where he rejects his Saiyan label or emphasizes that he views himself as an Earthling. He’s even used his Saiyan heritage to justify his love for battle. He obviously doesn’t care for the conquest aspect of being a Saiyan, but he doesn’t really get into philosophical debates about his identity. Toriyama’s Goku is generally a more simple character than Toei’s Goku.
Yes, he doesn't get into debates hence why he's not long winded. He's not rejecting the label. I don't know how many times I have to say this, he's rejecting the deterministic notion that he is just like Tullece deep down. If he doesn't show that he rejects his label, it's not because Toei didn't understand him, it's because the villain didn't view him as a Saiyan by nature. Movie 3 ends with the heroes talking about how Goku could've turned out just like Tullece had he not hit his head. That's the point of Tullece being his doppelganger.

As I recall he does initially reject the idea after first finding out about it.

He did tell Bahta that he was a Saiyan raised on Earth. So we see that he clearly views himself now as a Saiyan by birth, but Earthling by choice.
Toriyama himself said that Toei didn’t understand Goku. Even ignoring the Tullece example, the anime added in an entire filler scene where Vegeta’s ghost has to convince Goku to embrace his Saiyan pride after Goku proclaims that he “ain’t no Saiyan.” Plus, Movie 8 has him rejecting his Saiyan name as well.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun May 30, 2021 8:13 pm

They have those particular instances in certain movies where he's like "I'm Goku, not Kakarott" but for the most part elsewhere he's ok with it like Vegeta consistently referring to him by Saiyan name even in the anime and never raises any objections and even refers to himself as a Saiyan raised on Earth.

I don't think he's ashamed of being a Saiyan in of itself, it's just he is repulsed by the barbaric blood thirsty warrior nature that most other Saiyans possess/possessed.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 30, 2021 10:02 pm

Toriyama himself said that Toei didn’t understand Goku. Even ignoring the Tullece example, the anime added in an entire filler scene where Vegeta’s ghost has to convince Goku to embrace his Saiyan pride after Goku proclaims that he “ain’t no Saiyan.” Plus, Movie 8 has him rejecting his Saiyan name as well.
That doesn't prove in this situation that they were wrong. And again, theme, theme, THEME. The whole point of the movie is that Goku isn't a conqueror just because they are from the same race.

The fact that the line may have been misused in other situations does not mean it wasn't appropriate in this case.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sun May 30, 2021 10:48 pm

ABED wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 8:19 am Do you want something that is emotionally resonant or do you want more worldbuilding?

Goku had accepted his Saiyan name LONG ago. I'm not sure where you got the idea that he didn't and it took this movie to do so.

I'll say until the cow goes home, world building is entirely overrated. People don't need everything spelled out to them. Seeing that backstory and lore play out is usually disappointing. Less is more.
I mean, can't a movie do both? Battle of Gods did some good world building & had some good emotional resonance for me.

He accepted that it was his birth name, but he never called himself by it. Goku's always accepted he's a Saiyan, but he's never really embraced it much. Him showing signs of embracing his genealogy is interesting, given he hasn't had any significant character development in a while. I just wish it didn't come out of nowhere that he was starting to do that. Toriyama's set up Checkov's Guns before like that, so he could do it again. Granted, from later replies I've read, it seems my judgement of this is colored by being only really familiar with the DBZ Kai anime, so take this with a grain of salt.

Well, no, we don't, but so much of the DB universe & its history is unexplored. I honestly think finding out the Saiyans' original homeworld not being Vegeta, though we already knew that, but Sadala & the fact that the U6 Saiyans still live there is fascinating. I like having pieces of information given to us over time like this. The Saiyan history has been mainly handled in filler material from the Z anime, so I'm all for Toriyama actually giving us those bits of information to chew on.
As for backstory & lore being played out being disappointing, it's usually in how it's handled. The Star Wars prequel trilogy was horribly handled because George Lucas was the only one writing & directing them & he's admitted to not being a great writer or director. And, I reject that DB can't explore its own mythology in a meaningful & impactful way. It's why people love the Bardock special so much. It provided a look into a never-before-seen character & race that we'd only gotten mentions of & sets the story in the form of a tragedy. We get new set pieces, new characters, & a whole new look into the Saiyans & how they served under Frieeza. It's similar to the Rogue One Star Wars movie, in that it informs us of details of certain things that previously went unexplained. And I really like both for what they do. Neither are perfect, but they're good. Now, in terms of rebooting Bardock into Minus, then that getting adapted & slightly expanded upon in the Broly movie, given what thee movie was going for, & what I can only imagine was cut from the original script, this was good to do. It gave us canon showings of the various things the Saiyans did. I think the movie should've been allowed a bit more time to flesh out some of the concepts, but I like most of what it was allowed to give us. We don't need 100% of the history of the Saiyans, but the glimpses we HAVE gotten are really good that I think it's ok to get them fleshed out more.
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:13 pm Toriyama himself said that Toei didn’t understand Goku. Even ignoring the Tullece example, the anime added in an entire filler scene where Vegeta’s ghost has to convince Goku to embrace his Saiyan pride after Goku proclaims that he “ain’t no Saiyan.” Plus, Movie 8 has him rejecting his Saiyan name as well.
Toei has had their ups & downs with understanding Goku over the years. Given how Super horribly misunderstands him in arguably worse ways than the Z anime, I'd say that misunderstanding Goku's thoughts on his own heritage is less of a headache.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 30, 2021 11:29 pm

I mean, can't a movie do both? Battle of Gods did some good world building & had some good emotional resonance for me.
Generally no. World building for the sake of world building is just information. The whole point of the gods and the other universes wasn't worldbuilding, it's a thematic point being made - there are more adventures to be had and greater mountains to climb.

Little crumbs of information over the years is bound to happen and it's best when it's to set up the drama but when people talk about the lore and worldbuilding what they want is almost always straight exposition and nothing in service of furthing the characters or plant some seed for the story that is paid off later. There is an abundance of examples we have of history being explained and it just ends up being disappointing. Stories should give only the information it needs for the story to function and no more.

Saiyan history has been done to death. It's a caste system based in strength. That's pretty much all we need to know.

The prequels were badly executed but the idea to explore them was flawed from the start. How can you possibly explain the fall of the republic, the Jedi, Anakin in the time it has and have it all feel satisfying? Explaining Darth Vader is like trying to explain Hannibal Lecter. The original trilogy gave as much information as it needed for the story to function but not so much that it ground the story to a halt. Prequels are practically by their nature about information.

Bardock wasn't great because it explored history. It told us nothing we didn't already know. It's great because it is a tragedy that has a meaningful story arc for its protagonist. It's not because of the mythology.

Rogue one is terrible. It doesn't do anything remotely meaningful. We don't need those details explained and the only ones asking those questions are nerds who want to know everything about the fictional stories they consume.

The single worst part of that Broly movie is the intro. Cut it, it's not necessary. Almost every movie benefits from being shorter.
We don't need 100% of the history of the Saiyans, but the glimpses we HAVE gotten are really good that I think it's ok to get them fleshed out more.
Or perhaps it's because they are just hints that they are so interesting. It's usually best to leave certain things up to the audience's imaginations because it's beyond the scope of the story being told and no explanation will deliver on the audience's expectations. The movie is too long as is.

One of the best action movies of all time is Predator. Very little backstory is given, but we understand the characters and what's motivating them. That's all that matters. Attempts to explore the predator mythology have almost all been disappointing.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 31, 2021 12:41 am

In the context of the movie, the purpose of showing the backstory of the Saiyans was most likely to highlight the contrast between Goku, Vegeta and Broly’s respective upbringings. Also, it’s probably supposed to help make the movie more accessible for newcomers. Fans were already familiar with the destruction of planet Vegeta and the Bardock portion of the film is just an adaptation of Minus that barely even expands on the story.

On the subject of prequels, I’d rather watch the Star Wars prequel trilogy over Rogue One. The fact that RO actually goes through great lengths to try and answer the “plothole” regarding the Death Star’s weakness is genuinely irritating to me. We didn’t need an explanation for that. Practically no one viewed that as a serious problem with the original film. Trying to retroactively “fix” that is on the same level as those small changes that Disney tends to do with their live action remakes. The Star Wars prequels are awkward and have plenty of cheap callbacks to the OT, but they at least don’t feel like I’m watching a fan film.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzk1999 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:38 am

WittyUsername wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:41 am In the context of the movie, the purpose of showing the backstory of the Saiyans was most likely to highlight the contrast between Goku, Vegeta and Broly’s respective upbringings.
And honestly, I’d say it’s even more than “most likely” in that regard. The second trailer that released before the film came out (the one specifically dealing with the events of the past/backstory) is done in a way that highlights both the 3 main saiyans of the film, the circumstances of their birth/status, and their respective fathers.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am

After recently rewatching it Bio Broly/I’m the one who will win/Z movie 11/ Z Warriors Meets Swamp Thing/Whatever isn’t near as bad as it’s reputation suggest. It’s far and away better than it’s predecessor, which had the audacity of being boring as hell and fucking stupid at the same time. Quite honestly, I enjoyed it more than Z movie 5-7 as well.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am After recently rewatching it Bio Broly/I’m the one who will win/Z movie 11/ Z Warriors Meets Swamp Thing/Whatever isn’t near as bad as it’s reputation suggest. It’s far and away better than it’s predecessor, which had the audacity of being boring as hell and fucking stupid at the same time. Quite honestly, I enjoyed it more than Z movie 5-7 as well.
I think it sucks when compared to the thrilling stories/fights/villains of DBZ, but without that in mind, on its own it isn't that bad. Maybe because I'm, lately, more inclined to lighthearted stories, with more adventures, stearing away from the usual stakes.

You'll be disappointed if you go in expecting some groundbreaking combat or more of what we always get. But if you want a good time, it might do the job.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:16 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am After recently rewatching it Bio Broly/I’m the one who will win/Z movie 11/ Z Warriors Meets Swamp Thing/Whatever isn’t near as bad as it’s reputation suggest. It’s far and away better than it’s predecessor, which had the audacity of being boring as hell and fucking stupid at the same time.
Agreed, though lately I've come to appreciate how both movies kinda take the piss out of Broly.

Also, some of my favorite music tracks in the Buu arc are from movie 11.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:46 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:16 am Also, some of my favorite music tracks in the Buu arc are from movie 11.
Super Saiyan rock is totally radical dude
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:07 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am After recently rewatching it Bio Broly/I’m the one who will win/Z movie 11/ Z Warriors Meets Swamp Thing/Whatever isn’t near as bad as it’s reputation suggest. It’s far and away better than it’s predecessor, which had the audacity of being boring as hell and fucking stupid at the same time. Quite honestly, I enjoyed it more than Z movie 5-7 as well.
That''s the sentiment I've heard Team Four Star express & I tend to agree.
If you look at the second Broly movie, to me, it's not only boring, but the plot makes no sense to happen because Broly clearly died at the end of the first movie. Not only that, but I consider it torture porn. The first movie, when it switches to the 3rd act battle, has some fun eye candy during the battle, but the tone is immediately changed & I don't like the tone it's changed to. At least, though, you don't get depressed. But, Goten, Trunks, & Videl, all of which children & nowhere near as powerful as him, so they continually get beat up by him. Then Gohan appears & tries to melt Broly in lava to kill him, which doesn't work. Then he's killed off by Goku Ex Machina in a way that barely makes any sense, if it does at all, which I don't think it does given what was established in the manga, show, & some of the other movies. But the movie's also boring at the same time & Broly's flanderized to where any sense of a personality he had in the first movie is nonexistent.
Bio Broly at least has 18 & Mr. Satan, even if the plot is even more stupid than the second movie's. But, then again, I'm all for a dumb plot as long as the characters are enjoyable. It's why I like movies like Dumb & Dumber.
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