Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:50 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:58 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:50 am Another one for me is that the Red Ribbon Army arc was every bit as much Goku Time, moreso even, than Dragon Ball GT. Just executed better. But most of the complaints I see about too much Goku or Goku is too powerful almost never mention the RRA saga.
The first part of Dragon Ball was about Goku's journey of becoming a great martial artist so of course battles would tend to gravitate in his favor, but he wasn't alone in it. GT had Goku cconstantly saving the day without anyone's help.
Goku wasn't "alone" in DBGT, either. Pan was with him for most of the show, Trunks flew the spaceship to find the Black Star Balls, Uub fought Baby for a bit and hindered his power, the Dragon fighters fought against the resurrected villains Super 17 (especially A18), and Vegeta helped Goku fight Yi Xing Qiu Long.
In the RRA arc, only Bulma and Krillin were with him, and only for less than a third of the arc. Even then, Arale-chan was the only character to help Goku beat a prominent antagonist.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:22 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:41 pm That still doesn't change the fact that the Red Ribbon Army was there to fully show off Goku in all his glory, same as GT.
Yeah if anything, the RRA arc is worse in that regard. Everyone else fails to make it to the main base because Goku's already massacred everyone. Can't remember that ever happening in GT :lol:

There was a thread a little while ago criticising the RRA arc, don't think I got involved in it but I kinda dislike the Muscle Tower segment that focuses on Goku's solo mission. While it's interesting at first, I could feel the lack of Bulma or Kuririn to bounce off, so I'm glad Toriyama realised this too by the General Blue portion when he brought them back. I don't find Hacchan or Suno to be compelling replacements, I think they're both forgettable and bland tbh. General Blue onwards is absolute peak action-adventure-comedy with the characters I love.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:26 pm

It's two different situations. By GT, the series had become about a team of fighters each contributing in the major battles. There was an expectation that it wouldn't just be Goku hogging all of the spotlight. The Red Ribbon arc hadn't gotten there yet.

Goku being the main character doesn't mean that it's all about Goku.

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:22 pm There was a thread a little while ago criticising the RRA arc, don't think I got involved in it but I kinda dislike the Muscle Tower segment that focuses on Goku's solo mission. While it's interesting at first, I could feel the lack of Bulma or Kuririn to bounce off, so I'm glad Toriyama realised this too by the General Blue portion when he brought them back. I don't find Hacchan or Suno to be compelling replacements, I think they're both forgettable and bland tbh. General Blue onwards is absolute peak action-adventure-comedy with the characters I love.
Yeah but it's still largely a Goku solo story after the Pirate Cave. Goku in Penguin Village, Goku in the Land of Karin, Goku at the RR headquarters. He's still going at it alone with new supporting players introduced each time. I agree that the arc improves overall after Muscle Tower, but I don't think that's because of the Dragon Team's reintroduction entirely.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:29 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:26 pm It's two different situations. By GT, the series had become about a team of fighters each contributing in the major battles. There was an expectation that it wouldn't just be Goku hogging all of the spotlight. The Red Ribbon arc hadn't gotten there yet.
Still doesn't change that the RRA arc pretty much is Goku hogging the spotlight, moreso than GT even. That's my main point here. Usually, the complaint that GT was too much Goku treats that as though it was some unusual phenomenom at the time of the series.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:07 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:29 pm Still doesn't change that the RRA arc pretty much is Goku hogging the spotlight, moreso than GT even. That's my main point here. Usually, the complaint that GT was too much Goku treats that as though it was some unusual phenomenom at the time of the series.
Goku can't be hogging the spotlight in Red Ribbon, because there's no spotlight to share at that point. The supporting cast hadn't yet evolved into what it was by the Z-era.

GT having too much Goku is a reasonable assessment going from DBZ, where the focus was spread among the other characters. It's not inappropriate for a DB-related show, it just goes against the established patterns of the series at that point. Viewers might find it unusual.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:07 pm Goku can't be hogging the spotlight in Red Ribbon, because there's no spotlight to share at that point. The supporting cast hadn't yet evolved into what it was by the Z-era.

GT having too much Goku is a reasonable assessment going from DBZ, where the focus was spread among the other characters. It's not inappropriate for a DB-related show, it just goes against the established patterns of the series at that point. Viewers might find it unusual.
Your first point doesn't really make any sense. No spotlight to be hogged? Prior to the RRA arc, Goku shared screentime with an ensemble of Bulma, Oolong, Yamcha, and later Roshi and Krillin. Even Launch was present a lot. Goku was the main character but the show capitalized on it significantly once the RRA saga came about. The show went from being an ensemble of misfits to a largely solo adventure showing the hero in dominating fashion. Nothing you're saying refutes my original and main point.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:25 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm Your first point doesn't really make any sense. No spotlight to be hogged? Prior to the RRA arc, Goku shared screentime with an ensemble of Bulma, Oolong, Yamcha, and later Roshi and Krillin. Even Launch was present a lot. Goku was the main character but the show capitalized on it significantly once the RRA saga came about. The show went from being an ensemble of misfits to a largely solo adventure showing the hero in dominating fashion. Nothing you're saying refutes my original and main point.
They weren't warriors, they were misfits. The supporting cast hadn't expanded to include a team of fighters yet. The series hadn't reached the level of combat that it did in DBZ. When people complain about too much Goku in GT, they mean in regards to the other Z-Senshi, not characters like Bulma, Oolong, and Lunch. It's the spotlight of battle that they are referring to, the key fights and transformations and power-ups.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:50 pm

That's still kind of irrelevant because they were the main cast at that time. And all of the main core characters, including the Z warriors, are still pretty much misfits.

Either way, Goku in the RRA didn't have much of his previous supporting cast around (who were beloved characters also, I'm pretty sure). It was still all about showing just how much more awesome he was than everyone else. And regarding GT, it's not just GT; some fans nowadays complain when Goku is given any type of prominence or "shine," even when other characters get a bit too.

Anyway, I did post this in "Unpopular Opinions," so the fact that you're debating this further warrants its place here. :)
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by DSB » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:55 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:26 pm
DSB wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:22 am Ultra Instinct is better than Super Saiyan
This is technically a fact. The state of UI makes Goku better at fighting than Super Saiyan.
i meant as a form. Super Saiyan has been watered down so much its shit now.

They should establish UI as the main form of the series. The face of DB or something

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:00 pm

Moro used his "magic" in the final battle a lot more than people seem to remember.

I put magic in quotes because a lot of these tactics have been done without magic in DB, before. But they aren't used in the entirety of the series but for more than 1 or 2 times, at least with the importance with which Moro was using them.

Basically, Moro actually banked on a lot of previously executed techniques and tactics with magic as the basis. His use of this stuff advanced the plot. The barrier usage, the life sensing, the technique replication, the regeneration, energy absorbtion, etc... Were magic based game changers in that final fight. Everytime he revealed these abilities, somebody lost, immediately. He didn't just become a "generic" DB villain like everyone on the internet seems to think. He was actually abusively subversive.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:34 pm

DSB wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:55 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:26 pm
DSB wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:22 am Ultra Instinct is better than Super Saiyan
This is technically a fact. The state of UI makes Goku better at fighting than Super Saiyan.
i meant as a form. Super Saiyan has been watered down so much its shit now.

They should establish UI as the main form of the series. The face of DB or something
Right now UI feels the closest to how the original Super Saiyan format felt before the "bargain sale." I actually don't mind the bargain sale because in its own way, it raised the stakes/made things feel more desperate, but I'd rather UI not go that route. Obviously it can be souped up (I'm not finished reading the Moro arc, but I've heard a bit of what goes on with it there), but I like it remaining mysterious, somewhat scary, and I like it staying exclusively with Goku even if anyone can technically achieve it. If UI becomes the "franchise form," I feel like it'll get pimped out to being what Super Saiyan turned into.

I'm with you in that I love the form and how it's being used, however. It's my favorite besides SSJ4 and the original/pre-ascended Super Saiyan form.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Izanagi » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm

Fusion is single-handedly THE worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball and broke the ENTIRE game. When it was a perk exclusive to the Namekians, it was OK, but starting from the Majin Boo arc, it becomes so infuriating to watch.

I like Fusion as a concept and when it's used in comedic situations like Gotenks' Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, but I don't like it when it's used as a get out of jail free card. It provides an immense power boost which makes it questionable to not use it on every other opponent.

Say Goku and Vegeta are in trouble against a super strong fighter? No problem! Just fuse! Hey, why aren't you guys fusing! Just fuse! C'mon now! We know you guys can still fuse and stomp all over Broly! Fuse goddammit!

Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:21 pm

Izanagi wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm
Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.
Well, that all went out the window for the Broly movie, with Gogeta being pretty much Achilles with really good footwear.

I agree Vegeta's rant before fusing is getting boring, in every media he does that and he always gets convinced with the same reasons by Goku. It's dumb to keep that trope going, just fuse already or actually have Vegeta refuse to do it, and find another way to beat the opponent.

Edit: lemme add that it's not even all bad for Vegeta, he would've never found out that Goku had an ace in the hole in the form of CSSB. Maybe fusing also helped him master the form later, too.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:31 pm

Izanagi wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm Fusion is single-handedly THE worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball and broke the ENTIRE game. When it was a perk exclusive to the Namekians, it was OK, but starting from the Majin Boo arc, it becomes so infuriating to watch.

I like Fusion as a concept and when it's used in comedic situations like Gotenks' Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, but I don't like it when it's used as a get out of jail free card. It provides an immense power boost which makes it questionable to not use it on every other opponent.

Say Goku and Vegeta are in trouble against a super strong fighter? No problem! Just fuse! Hey, why aren't you guys fusing! Just fuse! C'mon now! We know you guys can still fuse and stomp all over Broly! Fuse goddammit!

Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.
Please understand that they are warriors, not superheroes. They want to try to win the fight without what feels like cheating for them.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:18 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:31 pm
Izanagi wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm Fusion is single-handedly THE worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball and broke the ENTIRE game. When it was a perk exclusive to the Namekians, it was OK, but starting from the Majin Boo arc, it becomes so infuriating to watch.

I like Fusion as a concept and when it's used in comedic situations like Gotenks' Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, but I don't like it when it's used as a get out of jail free card. It provides an immense power boost which makes it questionable to not use it on every other opponent.

Say Goku and Vegeta are in trouble against a super strong fighter? No problem! Just fuse! Hey, why aren't you guys fusing! Just fuse! C'mon now! We know you guys can still fuse and stomp all over Broly! Fuse goddammit!

Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.
Please understand that they are warriors, not superheroes. They want to try to win the fight without what feels like cheating for them.
Them fusing to win a difficult fight has more to do with pragmatism, rather than being superheroes.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:51 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:21 pm
Izanagi wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm
Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.
Well, that all went out the window for the Broly movie, with Gogeta being pretty much Achilles with really good footwear.

I agree Vegeta's rant before fusing is getting boring, in every media he does that and he always gets convinced with the same reasons by Goku. It's dumb to keep that trope going, just fuse already or actually have Vegeta refuse to do it, and find another way to beat the opponent.

Edit: lemme add that it's not even all bad for Vegeta, he would've never found out that Goku had an ace in the hole in the form of CSSB. Maybe fusing also helped him master the form later, too.


Now that you mention that one thing that gets tiring for me is Vegeta constantly insulting Goku. It's starting to get on my nerves, calling him an idiot is literally his reply 8 out of 10 times to anything Goku says, like in the Broly movie. I don't know why Goku doesn't punch him in the face already

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 am

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:18 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:31 pm
Izanagi wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm Fusion is single-handedly THE worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball and broke the ENTIRE game. When it was a perk exclusive to the Namekians, it was OK, but starting from the Majin Boo arc, it becomes so infuriating to watch.

I like Fusion as a concept and when it's used in comedic situations like Gotenks' Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, but I don't like it when it's used as a get out of jail free card. It provides an immense power boost which makes it questionable to not use it on every other opponent.

Say Goku and Vegeta are in trouble against a super strong fighter? No problem! Just fuse! Hey, why aren't you guys fusing! Just fuse! C'mon now! We know you guys can still fuse and stomp all over Broly! Fuse goddammit!

Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.
Please understand that they are warriors, not superheroes. They want to try to win the fight without what feels like cheating for them.
Them fusing to win a difficult fight has more to do with pragmatism, rather than being superheroes.
They are also not pragmatic. They want as good of a fight as they can get. It's why they let enemies reach full power or let enemies finish their killing machines despite advanced warning.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:00 am

Izanagi wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:20 pm Fusion is single-handedly THE worst thing to happen to Dragon Ball and broke the ENTIRE game. When it was a perk exclusive to the Namekians, it was OK, but starting from the Majin Boo arc, it becomes so infuriating to watch.

I like Fusion as a concept and when it's used in comedic situations like Gotenks' Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, but I don't like it when it's used as a get out of jail free card. It provides an immense power boost which makes it questionable to not use it on every other opponent.

Say Goku and Vegeta are in trouble against a super strong fighter? No problem! Just fuse! Hey, why aren't you guys fusing! Just fuse! C'mon now! We know you guys can still fuse and stomp all over Broly! Fuse goddammit!

Vegeta being against it every time is just a way to postpone the usage of the technique, because it takes all the stakes out of the story. They kept Goku and Vegeta for a long time apart against Zamasu or Broly, because the power boost of Fusion would take all the stakes away. I do praise Toriyama for explaining why Vegetto unfused in the Majin Boo arc. This brought some of the stakes back and Vegetto Blue unfused even faster because of how powerful he was. That's a good way to bring stakes back. This is why I don't get people who are against a time limit for Fusion. Without any weaknesses, it would be a super boring move that would end every fight in an instant.
I’m going to be honest, I’m not quite sure what your argument is. You don’t like fusion, okay, cool. But then you proceed to mention that you’re glad all the limitations that are placed on it and yeah that’s kinda the point. It’s a pretty common storytelling device to place restrictions on an overpowered character or concept so they don’t become a “solve anything “ crutch. Usually by making said character unreliable or finding ways to keep them out of the action or place limitations on a power up. Sometimes this trope can be annoying, Majin Boo falling asleep 3 different times in Super is my go to example for that, but you don’t seem to have any issues with the limitations placed on fusion? Which again is the point. Toriyama is aware of how overpowered the concept is that’s why the 30 minute time limit is there. That’s why one set of fusion partners (Goten and Trunks) are shown to be immature and unreliable and the other set (Goku and Vegeta) are too prideful to use it as a crutch.


Execution matters. Overpowered characters and concepts are not innately bad when they’re not used as a get out of jail free card. You don’t seem to actually mind how fusion is executed in the series so why do you have an issue with it and think it’s the worst thing?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:26 am

If anything, I'd understand disliking Fusion as a concept while liking its execution, since it still isn't guaranteed to win when you weigh in multiple other factors. Yet naturally, like in Fusion Reborn or DBS: Broly, sometimes Fusion saving the day is exactly what we need to see; if Fusion never won, then it would pretty much be entirely a gag concept (which would be fitting seeing as it's Toriyama, but Fusion always losing would be a trope I'd get tired of as well). Sometimes, it is nice to see the ultimate trump card win the day; if Fusions were always winning, then I'd see the issue.

Ironically Fusion is something I've grown to love much MUCH more over the years, as both a concept and seeing it happen. Not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but it's my favorite new element introduced in the Boo saga and one of the key elements that helps distinguish it. I really like the mystical nature of it also. I also feel this way about SSJ3, for its more primal appearance and for the fact that Goku attained it in the Otherworld.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:29 am

Another one I'll add is that Goten and present Trunks becoming Super Saiyan at 7 and 8 didn't ruin/cheapen Super Saiyan. By that point in the series, it had been well-established that Saiyan-human hybrids had massive potential, and both were conceived when their fathers had already unlocked the form. Yet no one bats an eye at 4-year-old Gohan getting a rage boost and becoming much stronger than Goku or Piccolo, able to actually weaken Raditz. Granted, I think the larger issue people really have is that Goten and Trunks weren't given the kind of character arcs that Gohan had as a kid, and that they unlocked SSJ without great difficulty; it might be "annoying" that Super Saiyan was now literally a child's plaything, but it's not inconsistent with what Dragon Ball had been up to that point. And even if it is a problem, it started once Goku wasn't the only Super Saiyan, not with Goten and Kid Trunks.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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