Unpopular DB opinions

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:44 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:12 pm
GT is actually overall worse than a lot of fans remember. There's a good reason why it's reputation was so bad (especially among non-DB fans) in the first place.
Not really unpopular opinion because many people still feel the same way. GT may have a cult following, but it's still look down as the weakest series in the DB franchise. Many casual fans will still tell people to avoid it because it's "not canon". DBS may have its haters, but I do feel like most people do like it over GT. I see more casual fans that like Super a lot more than people give it credit for.
Indeed, from what I've seen most casual fans would put Super second just behind Z and then the original Dragon Ball in a somewhat distant third and GT dead last as the punching bag of the fandom.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheFallenProfit » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:19 pm

The only good arc in Super is Moro.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MuscleRobo » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:43 pm

I hate the terms "queer coded" because it just seems like people using the term head cannon to me recently. I feel if it isn't on screen you can't say it's obvious. I'm reminded of series like Blue Flag, Planet With and even Huggto Precure where people swore up and down "X is gay!" "You can tell by this episode!" When a lot of those characters ended up either being bisexual or hetero. Heck, a couple characters everyone thought were straight turned out to be gay in one of those.

There are anime where something as subtle as a nod or an eye movement have important plot relevance, such as SSSS.Gridman or Evangelion, but I don't think Dragon Ball is one of those shows. If these characters are actually gay have them kiss!!! I think I'd actually like a bit of romance of DB here; maybe Masakazu Katsura could've encouraged that over fusions lol.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:50 pm

MuscleRobo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:43 pm I hate the terms "queer coded" because it just seems like people using the term head cannon to me recently. I feel if it isn't on screen you can't say it's obvious. I'm reminded of series like Blue Flag, Planet With and even Huggto Precure where people swore up and down "X is gay!" "You can tell by this episode!" When a lot of those characters ended up either being bisexual or hetero. Heck, a couple characters everyone thought were straight turned out to be gay in one of those.

There are anime where something as subtle as a nod or an eye movement have important plot relevance, such as SSSS.Gridman or Evangelion, but I don't think Dragon Ball is one of those shows. If these characters are actually gay have them kiss!!! I think I'd actually like a bit of romance of DB here; maybe Masakazu Katsura could've encouraged that over fusions lol.
I agree. People see what they want to see and stretch the imagination to fit their world view.
You can "turn" anyone gay if you reach far enough:

"Yamcha is secretly gay. That's why he was so uncomfortable with women. On a subconscious level he knew that he would prefer to be with a man. That's also why his relation ended with Bulma and why he trained for years with other men. All his flirting with other women was just a way to mask his LGBT feelings in a world where such feelings aren't accepted yet. Knowing he could not find happiness with another man, he decided to move back to the desert."

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:57 pm

Just because you hadn't heard the phrase "queer coded" until recently is on you, not the actual phrase itself, though. (It's not exactly the same, but it reminds me of folks up in arms about "sus" in a translation, thinking it came exclusively from Among Us, and wasn't some extremely common phrase.)

The Kale and Caulifla stuff in particular is queer coded to all but those who haven't actually encountered it before. Having a real, genuine conversation about something like that is absolutely one thousand percent appropriate.

As opposed to...

Jord: That's an extrapolation to such absurd degrees for everyday conversation. This stuff is so transparent when you're doing the "look at me, I'm not technically breaking any rules, I'm being completely polite about it!" act. We really don't have to stand for your little performance hate art in this and effectively every single post you make, and I don't think it would be much of a loss to anyone at all to never have it again.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MuscleRobo » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:05 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:57 pm Just because you hadn't heard the phrase "queer coded" until recently is on you, not the actual phrase itself, though ...
I have heard the term before but I feel it's a little out of place in Dragon Ball. This is a Japanese cartoon aimed at an audience that could handle it. I understand having to use the term "Queer Coded" for something like the American cartoon Static Shock. It was aimed at young children on a major American network that had to be very careful. So they have had to say a character in it was queer coded. I'm not trying to come off as hateful I promise that's why I tried to provide examples of other series that had both queer and hetero surprises, one of which was a Jump manga! Maybe I'm just not used to being this analytical with DB but I feel people jump for their favorite ships all the time. I mean if fandom had their way there'd be a canon gay incestual relationship in Saint Seiya, lol.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:25 pm

MuscleRobo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:05 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:57 pm Just because you hadn't heard the phrase "queer coded" until recently is on you, not the actual phrase itself, though ...
I have heard the term before but I feel it's a little out of place in Dragon Ball. This is a Japanese cartoon aimed at an audience that could handle it. I understand having to use the term "Queer Coded" for something like the American cartoon Static Shock. It was aimed at young children on a major American network that had to be very careful. So they have had to say a character in it was queer coded. I'm not trying to come off as hateful I promise that's why I tried to provide examples of other series that had both queer and hetero surprises, one of which was a Jump manga! Maybe I'm just not used to being this analytical with DB but I feel people jump for their favorite ships all the time. I mean if fandom had their way there'd be a canon gay incestual relationship in Saint Seiya, lol.
Queer coding is not limited to US children's media. That's never been a rule.

For a none kids media example you have the male lead in Nightmare on Elm Street 2. He dances to disco pop music, he seems more interested in his male friend than his purported female love interest, the narrative treats him like your standard female lead in a slasher film with a lot of screaming.

For other Japanese anime examples you have Fiore in Sailor Moon. Now obviously Sailor Moon has no issues with out and out gay characters but Fiore is still queer coded. His sexuality is never outright confirmed but he's very possessive of Mamoru and sees Usagi as a threat his character arc is accepting Usagi's place in Mamoru's heart.


And queer coding =/= head canon and never has. Since Yamucha was mentioned there was nothing about him that's queer coded. Any viewer is free to head canon he's bisexual or secretly gay or a trans lesbian but there isn't actually subtext in the material. But Whis and Kale (and to a lesser extent Caulifa) very much are queer coded. Whis has painted finger nails , feminine mannerism, and blushed at seeing Beerus naked. Kale is very clearly attached to Caulifa to the point of feeling threatened by Cabba.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:35 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:44 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:12 pm
GT is actually overall worse than a lot of fans remember. There's a good reason why it's reputation was so bad (especially among non-DB fans) in the first place.
Not really unpopular opinion because many people still feel the same way. GT may have a cult following, but it's still look down as the weakest series in the DB franchise. Many casual fans will still tell people to avoid it because it's "not canon". DBS may have its haters, but I do feel like most people do like it over GT. I see more casual fans that like Super a lot more than people give it credit for.
Indeed, from what I've seen most casual fans would put Super second just behind Z and then the original Dragon Ball in a somewhat distant third and GT dead last as the punching bag of the fandom.
The original DB has FAR more fans than Super does, especially outside of the West. Hell, most Western anime fans also consider OG DB better than Super.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:36 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:35 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:44 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm

Not really unpopular opinion because many people still feel the same way. GT may have a cult following, but it's still look down as the weakest series in the DB franchise. Many casual fans will still tell people to avoid it because it's "not canon". DBS may have its haters, but I do feel like most people do like it over GT. I see more casual fans that like Super a lot more than people give it credit for.
Indeed, from what I've seen most casual fans would put Super second just behind Z and then the original Dragon Ball in a somewhat distant third and GT dead last as the punching bag of the fandom.
The original DB has FAR more fans than Super does, especially outside of the West. Hell, most Western anime fans also consider OG DB better than Super.
Casual fans was the key word here.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:47 pm

Jord wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:50 pm
MuscleRobo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:43 pm I hate the terms "queer coded" because it just seems like people using the term head cannon to me recently. I feel if it isn't on screen you can't say it's obvious. I'm reminded of series like Blue Flag, Planet With and even Huggto Precure where people swore up and down "X is gay!" "You can tell by this episode!" When a lot of those characters ended up either being bisexual or hetero. Heck, a couple characters everyone thought were straight turned out to be gay in one of those.

There are anime where something as subtle as a nod or an eye movement have important plot relevance, such as SSSS.Gridman or Evangelion, but I don't think Dragon Ball is one of those shows. If these characters are actually gay have them kiss!!! I think I'd actually like a bit of romance of DB here; maybe Masakazu Katsura could've encouraged that over fusions lol.
I agree. People see what they want to see and stretch the imagination to fit their world view.
You can "turn" anyone gay if you reach far enough:

"Yamcha is secretly gay. That's why he was so uncomfortable with women. On a subconscious level he knew that he would prefer to be with a man. That's also why his relation ended with Bulma and why he trained for years with other men. All his flirting with other women was just a way to mask his LGBT feelings in a world where such feelings aren't accepted yet. Knowing he could not find happiness with another man, he decided to move back to the desert."
I also agree. a lot of people tend to project homosexuality into things and others where it isn't there, not just with fictional characters but with real life people as well. In my many years in this fandom, I've seen many fans unironically argue that Yamcha, Tien, etc are gay using the exact same reasoning that your example does.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely "queer coded" characters in DragonBall (Whis, Kale, Caulifla, maybe the Ginyu Force, etc), but a lot of fans tend to go too far with it lol.
Last edited by MrGohanks on Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:50 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:36 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:35 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:44 pm
Indeed, from what I've seen most casual fans would put Super second just behind Z and then the original Dragon Ball in a somewhat distant third and GT dead last as the punching bag of the fandom.
The original DB has FAR more fans than Super does, especially outside of the West. Hell, most Western anime fans also consider OG DB better than Super.
Casual fans was the key word here.
I was also referring to mostly casual fans too. Super is nowhere near as commercially successful as OG DragonBall was at its peak.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:02 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:47 pm
Jord wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:50 pm
MuscleRobo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:43 pm I hate the terms "queer coded" because it just seems like people using the term head cannon to me recently. I feel if it isn't on screen you can't say it's obvious. I'm reminded of series like Blue Flag, Planet With and even Huggto Precure where people swore up and down "X is gay!" "You can tell by this episode!" When a lot of those characters ended up either being bisexual or hetero. Heck, a couple characters everyone thought were straight turned out to be gay in one of those.

There are anime where something as subtle as a nod or an eye movement have important plot relevance, such as SSSS.Gridman or Evangelion, but I don't think Dragon Ball is one of those shows. If these characters are actually gay have them kiss!!! I think I'd actually like a bit of romance of DB here; maybe Masakazu Katsura could've encouraged that over fusions lol.
I agree. People see what they want to see and stretch the imagination to fit their world view.
You can "turn" anyone gay if you reach far enough:

"Yamcha is secretly gay. That's why he was so uncomfortable with women. On a subconscious level he knew that he would prefer to be with a man. That's also why his relation ended with Bulma and why he trained for years with other men. All his flirting with other women was just a way to mask his LGBT feelings in a world where such feelings aren't accepted yet. Knowing he could not find happiness with another man, he decided to move back to the desert."
I also agree. a lot of people tend to project homosexuality into things and others where it isn't there, not just with fictional characters but with real life people as well. In my many years in this fandom, I've seen many fans unironically argue that Yamcha, Tien, etc are gay using the exact same reasoning that your example does.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely "queer coded" characters in DragonBall (Whis, Kale, Caulifla, maybe the Ginyu Force, etc), but a lot of fans tend to go too far with it lol.
I know why it's important to me, a queer woman, to do these things but I don't understand why us doing this is important to you?

How are we going too far? Why is this a bad thing? Why are the marginalized geeks being goofy and claiming and taking control over a work of fiction something that can go too far?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Inkei9001 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:11 pm

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:14 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:11 pm Off topic but I knew I recognized the queen in Julie's avatar from somewhere


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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:19 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:50 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:36 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:35 pm

The original DB has FAR more fans than Super does, especially outside of the West. Hell, most Western anime fans also consider OG DB better than Super.
Casual fans was the key word here.
I was also referring to mostly casual fans too. Super is nowhere near as commercially successful as OG DragonBall was at its peak.
I feel like your typical Toonami DBZ bro seems to like Super over the original DB from what I've seen.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Adamant » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:05 pm

MuscleRobo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:05 pm
I have heard the term before but I feel it's a little out of place in Dragon Ball. This is a Japanese cartoon aimed at an audience that could handle it.
This stuff is really common in Japanese childrens' shows, especially nowadays.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:32 pm

Grand Priest's name change in the DBS Funimation dub is still dumb IMO. Even if the name carries the same amount of authority of the original Japanese version, I still think Grand Preist sounds cooler than Grand Minister.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:59 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:32 pm Grand Priest's name change in the DBS Funimation dub is still dumb IMO. Even if the name carries the same amount of authority of the original Japanese version, I still think Grand Preist sounds cooler than Grand Minister.
Why even change it? Did the Catholic Church threatened to protest?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:59 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:32 pm Grand Priest's name change in the DBS Funimation dub is still dumb IMO. Even if the name carries the same amount of authority of the original Japanese version, I still think Grand Preist sounds cooler than Grand Minister.
Why even change it? Did the Catholic Church threatened to protest?
I'd hazard a guess that it's down to lining up the lip flaps? He's named "Daishinkan-sama" in Japanese, Grand Minister has a few more syllables than Grand Priest. It also seems to be why they renamed Ultra Instinct as "Autonomous Ultra Instinct". :sick: Still sucks either way.

I have an unpopular opinion is related to this topic: I'm not overly concerned with changing character names to "preserve the pun", as it were. Most of it's down to personal preference (opinion, after all), but I just don't see it as that big of a deal compared to some purist fans, and some efforts to alter or translate the puns to English miss the mark, IMO. For instance, changing "Toppo" to "Top" communicates the pun of his name being a reverse of "pot", fitting the kitchen utensil theme of Universe 11... but it's way less distinctive and, in contrast to the Daishinkan example, cuts out a syllable (of a two-syllable name) unnecessarily, making the lip flaps harder to match. I may have watched subs first, but he'll always be Toppo to me.

An example I've never understood is the Viz manga translation changing Pui Pui to "Pocus", yet not changing Yakon to anything more Westernised. Seriously, why was only Pui Pui changed? Both his and Yakon's names are already puns on Japanese baby-talk incantations, with Yakon's apparently being derived from another anime. Pui Pui actually has a cool specific meaning: chinchin-puipui is the Japanese equivalent of mothers kissing their kid's knee scrape injury to make them feel better. Pocus, ironically, dilutes the meaning and relates to the character far less -- his original Japanese name helps to communicate that he is a piss-ant weakling. His English "translated" name only connects him to the magical theme for Western audiences but doesn't carry quite the same implication.

I'm kinda glad that this trend of Viz localising names into something totally different never really took off in most of the English fanbase, but some still seem to cling to it and see it as them being more thorough. To me, it's not much different to Harmony Gold calling Goku "Zero", or whatever the hell they called him. It's just another example of Westerners thinking they know better than the source material they're being employed to translate faithfully. We could theoretically alter many other characters' names to make the jokes behind them clearer for English speakers (Kuririn, Ginyu, just to name a few), but we only do it in arbitrary cases like this for whatever reason.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Modern_Dingus » Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:10 pm

This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, but is there some kind of term for people who think their opinion is unpopular, when in reality it's an almost universally-held opinion?

"GT is actually bad"
Yeah, most people will say that it's not good, but they enjoy this or that, so they prefer it.

"Vegeta/Gohan is way cooler than Goku"
I hear this so often, I'm almost confused anytime polls show Goku is higher, even if it's by a slight margin, like I've never actually heard anyone say Goku is their favorite character.

Not that these opinions are wrong or dumb or anything. But I often see people say these as if they're the first or only person to step up and admit these kinds of things.
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