Unpopular DB opinions

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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:05 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:00 pm The overuse of the dragon balls was stupid IMO.
Wait, the characters using the DB's too much or do you mean the plotline in GT where the overuse leads to release of the Evil Dragons?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ashur » Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:37 pm

ATA wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:31 pm
Ashur wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:34 pm
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 pm GT tends to get a lot of love nowadays, or at least far more defenders than it would have had in the past. I'm not sure if it's fans that have been unhappy with Super and redirected all of their anger towards it, or it's just a case that people were just tired of trashing GT.
the Super 17 arc being a total mess (still better than the Zamasu and TOP),
Yeah this is very unpopular. I will like to hear your reasons on how/why Super 17 >> Zamasu and TOP. Generally curious because for me Super 17 is worst saga in the entire franchise. I've never heard anyone say anything nice about Super 17 besides his design.
Sure i'll explain my take on the Super 17 arc: It at least had some enjoyable elements for me, like 18 confronting Super 17, and it gave Piccolo a far more fitting end to his character than the Baby arc, with how he helped Goku get out of Hell and staying as Hell's protector, it definetly did the character justice.

Meanwhile i can't stand the Zamasu arc, not only is the story just as nonsense as Super 17, but it has a lot of fanfiction-esque elements like Trunks and Mai's relationship in the future, the timeline stuff is so convoluted that it detracts further from the story, and most importantly, it permanently ruins the ending of Trunks' story during the Cell Arc, with one of the worst endings for a story arc that was ever conceived, on top of the fights being utterly repetitive, and this is the worst showing of Goku in DBS being the dumbest being in existence, overall, this arc has absolutely nothing of value, nothing good that i can look at as a redeeming quality, even the attempt at making a more complex villain ended up making one of the dumbest characters ever whose motivation is more laughable than sympathetic or deep (not to mention the Zamasu who they fight is not even the same we knew in the present, future Zamasu just went "ok i'm evil now" upon seeing Black, and Black acts like a generic evil version of Goku).

The TOP on the other hand has good stuff in there, but it is buried below so many episodes of boring and pointless filler fights, 80% of the arc feels like filler, inconsistent power levels that make your head hurt, multiple stupid attempts at making "strategic" fights that get diminished when the main focus of the arc is a guy who is so stronk he can be "stronger than time", making every attempt to sell the teamwork and technique aspect of the arc pointless and kind of insulting, like the story is directly lying to me, UI is introduced as an unique concept only to boild down to a generic white super saiyan and little more.

The constant callbacks and nostalgia bait from the tournament is annoying, especially Vegeta's "sacrifice", which also undercut one of the good things from the arc which was Toppo's whole Hakaishin thing, Number 17 overall was really annoying, not only is his character lacking of anything that resembles his prior self, but he gets ridiculous scenarios in order to make him look like the coolest thing ever, he is the first one to damage Jiren, for god's sake, he is wanked to oblivion, and his whole "sacrifice" thing was just... dumb, why make him sacrifice his life like that if he's just going to show up at the end for no reason? Totally pointless, not to mention this is the worst showing of Toriyama's current obsession with making Goku "not a hero at all" by making him responsible of dooming the universe for his stupidity and not caring afterwards.

One of the main things that makes the Super 17 arc far better for me is the fact that it doesn't take forever to end, the story is kinda broken, sure, but it's just like 7 episodes long, while the Zamasu and TOP arcs drag on and on, especially the latter.

In the end i feel like it's more about the Zamasu and TOP arcs being worse than the Super 17 arc having too much good elements.

Not sure if i expressed it really well, having to condense all of it, but i hope it paints a clear picture and i don't come off as too hateful lol.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:16 am

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:05 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:00 pm The overuse of the dragon balls was stupid IMO.
Wait, the characters using the DB's too much or do you mean the plotline in GT where the overuse leads to release of the Evil Dragons?
The latter.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:25 am

The Super 17 saga is my least favorite DB saga ever. It's bad fan service with 95% of the older villains being killed off screen, and the idea behind Super 17 is also dumb. Gero and Myuu could have made a new character, but they choose to make a Super 17 instead. Dr. Gero said that #17 was meant to be the ultimate cyborg which makes no sense considering that Cell exists. Cell and Freeza are treated as jokes too. Everyone else is a jobber expect for Goku as well.

I remember when I was so hype up to watch the Super 17 saga before GT was dubbed in America, and being so let down when I watched it via fan subs.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Xeogran » Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:07 am

Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:25 am Cell and Freeza are treated as jokes too.
It was literally a thing since Z days, right after Paikuhan made his debut and defeated them in a minute. Not the Super 17 saga's fault, the entire staff behind DB just had the mindset that old villains are old and therefore inferior to the new ones.
Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:25 amIt's bad fan service with 95% of the older villains being killed off screen
Remember when in Fusion Reborn they all just jump over a cliff after Gohan oneshots Frieza? And that includes powerhouses like Bojack.
Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:25 amDr. Gero said that #17 was meant to be the ultimate cyborg which makes no sense considering that Cell exists.
DBS 17 would oneshot Cell, and that's Toriyama approved too.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:21 am

It's not as though Toriyama hasn't pulled that stunt. He brought back Freeza at the beginning of the Cell arc to have him sliced into little bits like he was nothing.
The latter.
That was a great idea. Probably GT's best and one of the best things in DB. The DB's are used an easy out too often. Consequences in fiction are a good thing.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zephyr » Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:58 am

Last time I watched GT (about 6 years ago, at this point; I made a thread about it at the time) the Super 17 arc was far and away the most fun I had with the show. Too short to overstay its welcome like the other two arcs, and it was pretty funny. Smug-ass kid Goku making fun of Cell (which involved Nozawa doing a Wakamoto impression) and Bra showing a hint of her Saiyan instincts (much to the shock of the others she's with at the time) being the standouts. Goku punching Super 17 across the planet was the most visually-escalatory and satisfying combat feat since Namek.

Yeah, a lot of it doesn't make a ton of sense, a lot of it retreads past material, and a lot more could have been done with it, but damn if that's not just a description of Dragon Ball in general.

As for how it compares to any Super arcs, I don't really know. Pretty much all of GT's and Super's arcs are huge mixed bags for me, either way. I'd really have to rewatch both shows to give a fair comparison. Been years since I watched Super, and even longer since I rewatched GT, and I'm not exactly itching to rewatch either (especially given I'd feel compelled to watch the original two shows before them, as well).

In lieu of binging 639 episodes of a cartoon to make a more personally-definitive comparison, I'll say from memory that the Zamasu and the Tournament of Power arcs had climaxes and conclusions that I liked a lot more than anything in GT. But given its length, the Super 17 arc is infinitely more re-watchable on the whole than any arc in Super. It's like a nice little 90's era Toei DBZ movie. For that reason, it's the only arc between the two shows that I can't say is a "huge mixed bag for me". It's too short and fun to feel like a boring slog.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:24 pm

Xeogran wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:07 am Remember when in Fusion Reborn they all just jump over a cliff after Gohan oneshots Frieza? And that includes powerhouses like Bojack.

DBS 17 would oneshot Cell, and that's Toriyama approved too.
I give Fusion Reborn a pass because that was a movie and it didn't have the run time to do more with the conpect. With GT, they had planety of time that they could have done with the conpect. Instead, we got a bad rehash of DBZ Movie 7, and DBZ Movie 12. Also with DBS, 17 has been training to become stronger. The idea of #17 becoming a major villain already sounds random as if they pick it out of a hat for ideas.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:16 pm

I enjoy tournaments and wouldn't mind one every third arc or so.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:13 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:16 pm I enjoy tournaments and wouldn't mind one every third arc or so.
It's sad that this is an unpopular opinion in a martial arts show.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zekken » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:42 pm

After the new movie its clear that Toriyama would far rather depict comedy rather than intense character drama, psychology or introspection. And i`m kinda not here for that. At least to the unbalanced extent he does it nowadays
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:54 pm

Zekken wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:42 pm After the new movie its clear that Toriyama would far rather depict comedy rather than intense character drama, psychology or introspection.
Toriyama has always been more of a comedy writer and artist since day 1. I'm honestly surprised that there are still people in the year of our Kami 2022 that are taken aback by it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:09 pm

Count me in as someone who also doesn't like the concept itself of the shadow dragons. I've always thought it's such an uninteresting and nonsensical showcase of the dragon balls having consequences.

The dragon balls being around already brought unintended consequences with the fact that they were not only a useful tool for the heroes, but frequently attracted villains too. Piccolo Daimao wishing for his youth back, Vegeta and Nappa invading earth, and in turn Freeza invading namek were just a more interesting way to tell a story about these wish granting balls having downsides. Even the Granolah arc, for all its issues, is a much more interesting exploration of the consequences of just trying to wish your problems away than the dragon balls creating evil sentient monsters. I much prefer a "be careful what you wish for" story over one about evil energy building up whenever you use any wish.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:13 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:09 pm Count me in as someone who also doesn't like the concept itself of the shadow dragons. I've always thought it's such an uninteresting and nonsensical showcase of the dragon balls having consequences.

The dragon balls being around already brought unintended consequences with the fact that they were not only a useful tool for the heroes, but frequently attracted villains too. Piccolo Daimao wishing for his youth back, Vegeta and Nappa invading earth, and in turn Freeza invading namek were just a more interesting way to tell a story about these wish granting balls having downsides. Even the Granolah arc, for all its issues, is a much more interesting exploration of the consequences of just trying to wish your problems away than the dragon balls creating evil sentient monsters. I much prefer a "be careful what you wish for" story over one about evil energy building up whenever you use any wish.
Not only that, but it's completely antithetical to the idea of Kami wanting to give the Earthlings hope after unleashing Piccolo on them.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:22 pm

Wishes aren't unintended consequences. They're by definition the opposite. And when the heroes win, they can just reverse the wish. When Gohan was in his Kamehameha battle with Cell, Goku realized Gohan was holding back so as to not cause damage to the Earth. Goku tells Gohan to not hold back and that any damage done can be undone by the Dragon Balls. It's an easy out for the characters and the story. Now, whether you find some other way to tell the story of unintended consequences, that's a matter of opinion. But seeing another angle on it was welcome. It's not "beware buildup of evil energy". It's "too much of a good thing is a bad thing". We see the story play out so many times, seeing a different spin is welcome.
Not only that, but it's completely antithetical to the idea of Kami wanting to give the Earthlings hope after unleashing Piccolo on them.
I don't think it's antithetical at all. Even good things overused can be bad things. A parent helping you out can be great, but if they do it for everything, it becomes a crutch and can lead to dependency.

And lastly, it was set up at the end of DBZ when Elder Kaioshin warned about overuse of the DB's. I don't think Toriyama was setting up anything intentionally, so it feels like an odd line and like Chekov's Gun that doesn't go off.

Anyway, I've said my piece.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:13 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:16 pm I enjoy tournaments and wouldn't mind one every third arc or so.
It's sad that this is an unpopular opinion in a martial arts show.
I think that's probably chalked up to Dragon Ball not always having the most exciting execution for its tournaments. I'm definitely jazzed for a tournament on a television series with a better production schedule than the prior television series, though. The strategy that Tomioka Atsuhiro wrote for Gokuu in Dragon Ball Super #123 was so reminiscient of the sort of strategies he writes for Pokemon and it got me so pumped up. I would love to see a tournament in the series animated series take notes from the various Pokemon tournaments or the Dark Tournament of Yuu Yuu Hakusho, both in strategies, pairings and character drama.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:31 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:09 pm Count me in as someone who also doesn't like the concept itself of the shadow dragons. I've always thought it's such an uninteresting and nonsensical showcase of the dragon balls having consequences.

The dragon balls being around already brought unintended consequences with the fact that they were not only a useful tool for the heroes, but frequently attracted villains too. Piccolo Daimao wishing for his youth back, Vegeta and Nappa invading earth, and in turn Freeza invading namek were just a more interesting way to tell a story about these wish granting balls having downsides. Even the Granolah arc, for all its issues, is a much more interesting exploration of the consequences of just trying to wish your problems away than the dragon balls creating evil sentient monsters. I much prefer a "be careful what you wish for" story over one about evil energy building up whenever you use any wish.
This is a good point and I agree that the villains also being attracted to the Dragon Balls is a fine display of how they have negative consequences, but I don't think the Shadow Dragons are a bad manifestation of that idea either.

While the heroes always have good intentions, Elder Kaioshin was right to warn them that they are casually tampering with the natural laws of the universe by constantly bringing people back from the dead among other things, and doing so must have a price eventually. By the Saiyan arc, even the older and wiser characters like Karin and Muten Roshi, who have presumably seen hundreds of people die over the course of their lifetimes, can no longer come to terms with the finality of death since they've become used to wishing people back with the Dragon Balls. While the Dragon Balls are wonderful for allowing that, I think introducing some more direct consequences for their usage has dramatic potential and can give the series more resonance -- as much as we want to, we can't wish people back from the dead in real life, and having the characters be forced to actually come to terms with that would be cool to see. Of course, GT doesn't do much as much with this as it could've.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:37 pm

Like pretty much all of GT the overuse of the dragon balls having negative reprecussions was a great idea with a lacklustre execution. I'm not sure what they could have done but going with "monsters of the week" to show the ramifications of too much reliance on the dragon balls left a lot to be desired.


Although it didn't make the explicit connection I do like that Super tried to show Krillin still had ptsd from all his deaths and that wishing him back to life wasn't a 100 percent fix on what had happened to him. But even there it was a half hearted gesture and barely touched upon.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:37 pm Like pretty much all of GT the overuse of the dragon balls having negative reprecussions was a great idea with a lacklustre execution. I'm not sure what they could have done but going with "monsters of the week" to show the ramifications of too much reliance on the dragon balls left a lot to be desired.


Although it didn't make the explicit connection I do like that Super tried to show Krillin still had ptsd from all his deaths and that wishing him back to life wasn't a 100 percent fix on what had happened to him. But even there it was a half hearted gesture and barely touched upon.
That's what I would've liked to see...similar to what the MCU did with the Snap but pushing it further. Showing how much wishing people back and such sends shit in disarray and leads to a lotbof displacement and such. Maybe somebody gets emboldened by a revival and goes evil? Things like that
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:02 am

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:09 pm Count me in as someone who also doesn't like the concept itself of the shadow dragons. I've always thought it's such an uninteresting and nonsensical showcase of the dragon balls having consequences.

The dragon balls being around already brought unintended consequences with the fact that they were not only a useful tool for the heroes, but frequently attracted villains too. Piccolo Daimao wishing for his youth back, Vegeta and Nappa invading earth, and in turn Freeza invading namek were just a more interesting way to tell a story about these wish granting balls having downsides. Even the Granolah arc, for all its issues, is a much more interesting exploration of the consequences of just trying to wish your problems away than the dragon balls creating evil sentient monsters. I much prefer a "be careful what you wish for" story over one about evil energy building up whenever you use any wish.
Indeed. The Future Trunks arc also highlighted this theme better and it wasn't even trying to, unlike GT. Zamasu pretty much got his body all messed up and twisted because, on one hand, he wished for a mortal body, on the other, he wished for immortality. Just another example of being careful of abusing wishes, because it can lead to unforeseen consequences.

Meanwhile, GT completely failed to show this theme in a good and original way. It just created a bunch of generic pure evil monsters with uber mega power level (which also doesn't make sense, because the Earth DBs shouldn't be strong enough to create galaxy-threatening monsters who surpass Shenron's power). It also makes the Gods look like idiots because they never warned mortals of being careful with their wishes. The Gods in DBZ were naive and incompetent but they were not stupid, they knew of the threat of Majin Buu and warned mortals that they had to stop its revival.

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