Unpopular DB opinions

[Kamiccolo9]

He did write the script. You seem to have skipped over this post.

Unless "script" just means just the plot summery. Its not clarified what "script" to him means. Because he didnt direct the story, that I know. If he wrote the script and refused to check its consistancy with the prior saga then I'm deeply below disappointed with it.

Unless the word has changed meanings recently and I'm unaware of it, "script" means "script."

[Draken]

Last I checked script means script and apple means apple and and means and and wrote means wrote.

[theawesomepossum777]

Anyway, let's get this thread focused back on the main topic.

Another unpopular "opinion" I have is that the Saiyan and Freeza sagas are bad. Are they as crap as the Cell and Boo sagas? No, they're very much a better set of sagas when seen in a critical perspective. But that doesn't automatically make them good.

Please explain your reasons for this opinion just like you did in a separate thread. I would be dying to know.

[RandomGuy96]

The Buu Saga is much, much better than the Freeza Saga.

[Kid Buu]

The Buu Saga is much, much better than the Freeza Saga.

Yeah? I'm actually curious to hear your reasoning.

[RandomGuy96]

The Buu Saga is much, much better than the Freeza Saga.

Yeah? I'm curious to hear your reasoning, actually.

Many reasons.

-Majin Buu. He (it?) is just awesome, in all of his forms. I think that he's much more entertaining and interesting than Freeza, who for the most part is just a generic alien overlord. Super Buu is by far my favorite form, but both Fat Buu and Pure Buu are also likable, awesome, and hilarious in their own ways. I also like the designs of all his forms; my favorite design is a tie between Buuhan and Grey Buu.
-While he's minor, Dabra is also pretty cool. Babidi is also pretty underrated as a villain.
-Speculation. Just enough stuff is left vague in the Buu Saga to make it fun to talk about. The Freeza Saga is much more straightforward.
-World building. The Freeza Saga had this too, don't get me wrong, but I'm just listing this as a positive for Buu. I liked learning about the more fantastic elements of the greater DBU (the Kaioshin, the Demon Realm, magic, fusion, pre-Freeza history of the universe, etc.) after the Freeza and Saiyan sagas focused on the extremely soft sci-fi elements.
-It's fun. The Freeza Saga tried and failed to do drama at certain points, like the whole Namekian genocide, the saiyan genocide, et cetera. The Buu Saga injects just enough serious parts to keep it engaging, but for the most part is much more lighthearted than the last three sagas.
-It's funny. The Freeza Saga was arguably the least humorous of them all. The Buu Saga is the only saga that genuinely made me laugh, mostly from the antics of the various forms of Buu.
-No filler fights. One of the things I hated about the Freeza Saga is that a lot of the fights felt pointless; this mostly had to do with the tremendous gap in power between Freeza and his soldiers. I didn't feel like Vegeta was accomplishing anything when he was offing Cui and Dodoria; they both felt like filler characters inserted purely to give Vegeta some glory. In the Buu Saga, irrelevant henchmen were quickly swept aside, and all fights have some relevance to stopping the main villain. The main villain (Buu) also isn't literally a thousand times stronger than the next strongest villain (Dabra).
-Transformations. I like how Buu's transformations are done compared to Freeza's; they feel like they serve more of a point, and IMO have more interesting origins. Freeza's transformations felt like a waste of time. All the time spent fighting them is rendered meaningless, since we know he can just transform up again. We don't get that with Buu; he can't just transform at will.
-Battles. This arc actually has a lot of techniques, skill, and teamwork allowing weaker fighters to overcome stronger ones (Dabra vs Gohan, Super Buu vs SS3 Gotenks, Pure Buu vs SS3 Goku, and to an extent Gohan vs Buutenks). Barring arguably one fight, the Freeza arc was almost entirely "I have a higher power level so I win", and the fights were usually quite one-sided.
-Abilities. Buu had a lot of attributes besides his power level that made him a dangerous villain; intelligence, unpredictability, magic, absorption, regeneration, technique copying, unlimited stamina, and a few other things. It gives him more to do in his fights. Also, Gotenks shows off some crazy ki techniques, and Dabra gets to show off some cool magic.
-Pacing. The Buu Saga never felt like it dragged on nearly as much as the Freeza arc.
-Mr. Satan. A totally underrated and well developed character.
-Vegeta is the arc's bitch

The only problem was basically the whole ending, a problem shared by the Freeza Saga: Goku, who was had no real relevance up to this point, swoops in an at the last moment to beat the villain, and requires a hasty excuse as to why he can defeat the villain, as said villain has become much, much stronger than him. But I still think that the Buu Saga's ending (Goku, Mr. Buu, and Vegeta vs Pure Buu) is better than the Freeza Saga's (Goku vs Freeza), since it actually involves teamwork and tactics. The end of the Freeza Saga is just "I now have a higher power level, so I win".

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Last I checked script means script and apple means apple and and means and and wrote means wrote.

Nope. No need to get comedic.

Writing a script can just be the outline or index of a vague summary of a story's plot or chapter synophsis.
Writing the story out itself is writing it line for line. (which I doubt Akira actually did)

Contribution also doesnt mean self-published, it just means pitching and reviewing concepts.

The Buu Saga is much, much better than the Freeza Saga.

Yeah? I'm curious to hear your reasoning, actually.

Many reasons.
-Majin Buu. He (it?) is just awesome, in all of his forms. I think that he's much more entertaining and interesting than Freeza, who for the most part is just a generic alien overlord. Super Buu is by far my favorite form, but both Fat Buu and Pure Buu are also likable, awesome, and hilarious in their own ways. I also like the designs of all his forms; my favorite design is a tie between Buuhan and Grey Buu.

I completely disagree. Superbuu at most was the worst of them all (at least when he absorbed Gohan) he seemed to lose every amount of complex thought piccolo gave him when he absorbed Gotenks. I couldn't bare sitting through his fight with Vegitto because of how obnoxious, loud and whiny he was. Not to mention he became the embodiment of DBZ villain stereotypes: "Bwahu- I am deh strungest-u cant beet me cuz I'm swanger den u!!! Wuuuaahhhh!"

- Kid Buu was just another mindless Broly clone with no personality whatsoever and only exist because hes evil and dangerous. No character development or motives whatsoever but amusement. Cell at least had a focus and personality that propelled it, Super/Kid Buu did not. Its also not whats so interesting about him, its just the exceptionally over-simplistic and boring. He just came off as an OP little imp that just beat up people for fun nothing more.

Freeza had a lot of personality, second to cell. Calling him a "generic alien overlord" is just rediulous. He isnt generic. He isn't invader zim. He doesn't want to take over the world and make humans his slaves.... he takes over entire planets, sells them and does what he likes by the definition OF being and overlord. He was also a racist who hated sayians but masked his intimidation of their threat to his control. Thus he kills them all and plays it off as if they deserved it with no second thought. Buu was a terrible villain.

[Kid Buu]

I actually really like the Freeza arc until the Goku-wank starts; Buu arc is dumb but really entertaining. It's hard for me to pick between the two.

[Draken]

He straight said so, himself, that he wrote the script. What more do you want?

Last time I checked, story =/= script.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

He straight said so, himself, that he wrote the script. What more do you want?

Last time I checked, story =/= script.

Check again because they arent the same.

Regardless I shame Akira for his sheer laziness. Yes he was always a procrastinator and aloof in focus but this is the worst of them all. DBZ plot holes prior were minor and had to be sought for to find. This time, its just flat out there.

[Gaffer Tape]

Writing a script can just be the outline or index of a vague summary of a story's plot or chapter synophsis.

Um, but none of those things are what a "script" is, so why would you assume that's what it means? An outline, a summary, an index, a synopsis... none of those things are even close to what "script" means.

script (n)-The written document containing the dialogue and action for a drama; the text of a stage play, movie, or other performance. Especially, the final form used for the performance itself.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Um, but none of those things are what a "script" is, so why would you assume that's what it means? An outline, a summary, an index, a synopsis... none of those things are even close to what "script" means.

No. A script is/can be a draft of a story's premise. Not essentially the final format.

[Gaffer Tape]

No. No it can't. That is not what a script is. That is what an outline is or a treatment is or a synopsis is. You can have a rough draft script. You can have several early versions of scripts that get replaced with a final draft script, but for film a script is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS every single line of dialogue intended to be spoken in the film, scene descriptions, shot numbers, the whole shebang. That is a script.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

No. No it can't. That is not what a script is. That is what an outline is or a treatment is or a synopsis is. You can have a rough draft script. You can have several early versions of scripts that get replaced with a final draft script, but for film a script is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS every single line of dialogue intended to be spoken in the film, scene descriptions, shot numbers, the whole shebang. That is a script.

I'm talking about the story's conceptual development itself, not the direction for the adaption. The source material wasn't thrown straight into the movie as is.

[ABED]

No. No it can't. That is not what a script is. That is what an outline is or a treatment is or a synopsis is. You can have a rough draft script. You can have several early versions of scripts that get replaced with a final draft script, but for film a script is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS every single line of dialogue intended to be spoken in the film, scene descriptions, shot numbers, the whole shebang. That is a script.

I'm talking about the story draft concept itself, not the direction for the adaption. The source material wasn't thrown straight into the movie as is,

Gaffer is correct as far as I know. The script is the script, and the outline is the outline.

[Gaffer Tape]

No. No it can't. That is not what a script is. That is what an outline is or a treatment is or a synopsis is. You can have a rough draft script. You can have several early versions of scripts that get replaced with a final draft script, but for film a script is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS every single line of dialogue intended to be spoken in the film, scene descriptions, shot numbers, the whole shebang. That is a script.

I'm talking about the story's conceptual development itself, not the direction for the adaption. The source material wasn't thrown straight into the movie as is.

Look, to be honest, I'm not even entirely up to date on the context here. I have not seen Battle of Gods. I have not read this interview. All I know is that people have quoted an interview wherein Toriyama says he wrote the script. That's what I'm going on. Now, maybe there was a translation goof (although if this is a Kanzenshuu-translated interview, I find that unlikely). Maybe Toriyama, who, as far as I know, isn't a screenwriter, used the word "script" improperly. But assuming neither is the case, and we are to take the statement at face value, and Toriyama wrote the script or a script, that does not mean outline. That does not mean treatment. That does not mean conceptual development. It means script. And a script contains dialogue and action.

Now we can argue how involved he was with this script. Again, I don't think he's a screenwriter, so I have a hard time imagining he wrote a shooting script without any help. And as has been said earlier, he came into the project after a script had already been written, so, no, I would not assume every idea came from him. If you want to debate what his actual involvement was, fine. And that's out of my purview anyway since, as I've said, I've not seen the movie or followed details of it yet. But if we're just talking about his involvement based on what the word "script" means... that's what it means, and there really isn't any room for debate.

[Herms]

I'm talking about the story's conceptual development itself, not the direction for the adaption. The source material wasn't thrown straight into the movie as is.

Is English your native language? Because if not, it may explain why you and Gaffer Tape are talking past each other about the meaning of "script".

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Is English your native language? Because if not, it may explain why you and Gaffer Tape are talking past each other about the meaning of "script".

Gaffer is correct as far as I know. The script is the script, and the outline is the outline.

Thats not it. If the rough draft is closer to what I'm describing then I guess I mean draft for this conversation then. Whatever, though thats not the point I was trying to make. Who wrote the drafts? It isnt clearified what Akira specifically did in production of the story itself is it?

I was just trying to suggest that I don't believe Akira's worth on the movie is as comparible to the depth he put into the manga itself. Yes he had help but something about the production of BoG's script gives me a hard time believing he really sat down and conciously oversaw everything. I could be wrong but I'd like to give Akira more credit for his story telling than this. Thinking about how the other movies were made I'm assuming the process is the same thing. He writes a scenario, invents the characters and the plot. His assistance writes out the in-between details and expands it. Then Akira reviews it and makes changes on areas he sees should be portrayed differently such as on designs (usually) or plot devices. The area of BoG I have issue with is what I have to assume his assistants did, the small instances that make no sense in relation to the prior.

I know for sure that he wasnt the screenwritter and I know for sure that it was at most confermed that he was a creative consultant but judging from gow BoG played out in my reception of it, someone on the confirmation team just doesnt know their DBZ and I cant accept BoG being spiritually canon. (It is officially but I think it and EoB's concepts just ruins the series.)

If necessary this controversy should be moved to a new thread I guess.

[B]

My inference from the various interviews was that when Toriyama says he "rewrote the story," he literally means "the story," as in, the plot. Then, Yusuke Watanabe, the credited screenwriter, literally does his job and takes that plot and writes a screenplay, which is made up of actions and dialog.

[Herms]

Perhaps this interview will shed some light on the process:

What’s the story behind the birth of the plot line for “Battle of Gods”?!
It began two years ago. The ideas “God of Destruction” and “Super Saiyan God” were there from the start, but the worldview was pretty dark. So correcting this into a more “DB”-esque content kids could enjoy too was the catalyst for me becoming heavily involved in the story.

What is the secret of the design for Beerus, God of Destruction?
Because there are so many gods in my work… (laughs), I figured, ‘something humanoid might be difficult, now,’ so I thought I’d make him a cat. Thinking, ‘Speaking of feline gods…’ I went with an Egypt-esque costume. It gives off a bit of an ominous air, as well, so I’m really pleased with it!

Why did you choose this period?
The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Buu arc”, and before Pan’s birth.

What is Super Saiyan God?!
[Super Saiyan] God’s appearing was set from the very start of production. There’s a line in the movie, too, but even I thought, “‘God’ is an exaggeration…”. (laughs) As for the design, I made it by taking Super Saiyan, which I’d made flashy up through “3″, and paring it down to the absolute limit.

What are your thoughts on having participated in the movie?
It was fun~! This time, I devoted myself exclusively to creating the story, so I was happy most of all at how it became many times more enjoyable by other people’s hands. In particular, the climactic battle exceeded my expectations by far!!

There are some romantic developments, which is rare…?[\b]
The truth is, I wrote juuust a little bit of romantic developments in the movie, but that was happenstance. (laughs) I’m really bad with romantic plots. Even if the backstory is there, I shy away when I actually try to draw it. (laughs)

Do you have any unspoken backstories?[\b]
Just because he’s the God of Destruction, I wouldn’t like it if he just showed up for no good reason and went on a rampage. So even if it’s not mentioned in the work itself, I do try to come up with a convincing backstory in my own mind. …Although, I forget surprisingly quickly. (laughs)
What is the meaning of that conclusion…?8
I suppose there might be a variety of impressions with regards to the battle’s conclusion…. As far as I’m concerned, I’ll be happy if I can get people to feel “an expansion into [something] afterwards”. Like, “Isn’t there still more to come?” (laughs)

There's also this:

Apparently, it’s been 17 years since the last animated Dragon Ball movie! For all the animation up to now, I’ve basically just left everything up [to the staff], so this is my first try at being involved starting from the story’s creation. The key words this time, “God of Destruction Beerus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher. After first deciding on Beerus’s character design and background, I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga's] serialization had continued. What’s more, the God of Destruction Beerus, who I drew the design for myself (something I don’t usually do), is a terrifying opponent so overwhelmingly strong that he surpasses the dimension of the previous enemies. But it’s my trademark to not let things get too dark. At the very least, I’m satisfied that it’s been finished up as a very entertaining piece of work.