Unpopular DB opinions

[DBZAOTA482]

Given the shit Gohan had been put through, Even Nozawa herself is surprised that he DIDN'T have hatred harboured in his mind (Being treated like an attack dog and thrown in the path of Cosmic Horrors since childhood, while their father has been negligent to an extent on par with Big Boss would make any child hate their father).

So even Nozawa-sama thinks Goku is a shit father? Sad.

[Hades]

Speaking of Cosmic Horrors and BoBW, I'd have liked it if Freeza wasn't "the most powerful being in the universe", but a title he claimed for himself in his section of the universe, while it's implied that he's NOTHING in the grand scheme of things compared to other horrors of the universe that could take a scary interest in Earth.

[garnetjester]

Given the shit Gohan had been put through, Even Nozawa herself is surprised that he DIDN'T have hatred harboured in his mind (Being treated like an attack dog and thrown in the path of Cosmic Horrors since childhood, while their father has been negligent to an extent on par with Big Boss would make any child hate their father).

So even Nozawa-sama thinks Goku is a shit father? Sad.

No, Nozawa's comment probably had more to do with Piccolo. She's been asked about Goku's family before and said that she thinks he's very good with his family (I honestly agree. Other than the Cell games, Goku never really put Gohan in the frontline at all, and he was still very protective of his son. Gohan was trained by Piccolo's initiative to fight against the saiyans, he decided to go to Namek on his own as well, and he also wanted to fight the androids and Cell.) I'm not in the "Goku is a horrible father" camp at all, I think he was very kind and did whatever he thought was best for his children/family. He is a selfish character though, I admit that, but his heart is in the right place, in my opinion.

However, regardless of how you spin it, Gohan did end up having a pretty rocky childhood, even though it wasn't Goku's fault at all. That's actually what makes Goku's decision to stay dead even more powerful, he knows that without him around his family will also be able to have some semblance of a normal life.

Anyway, while Evil!Gohan doesn't sound like something out of Dragon Ball at all, I like it conceptually. Tullece already did pit him against his dad in The Tree of Might though.

[Hades]

@Abed

As to the rise of cynicism in western popular culture, I suspect it's largely down to us living in a post-9/11 world and we have seen western governments betray their ideals in the name of national security, and this sort of view has only been compounded with the economic crisis and large scale unemployment.

[ABED]

@Abed

As to the rise of cynicism in western popular culture, I suspect it's largely down to us living in a post-9/11 world and we have seen western governments betray their ideals in the name of national security, and this sort of view has only been compounded with the economic crisis and large scale unemployment.

So, in a roundabout way, you're blaming your view of what DB should be on 9/11?

[Hades]

@Abed

As to the rise of cynicism in western popular culture, I suspect it's largely down to us living in a post-9/11 world and we have seen western governments betray their ideals in the name of national security, and this sort of view has only been compounded with the economic crisis and large scale unemployment.

So, in a roundabout way, you're blaming your view of what DB should be on 9/11?

No. I am explaining the rise of "darker and edgier" as a trend, and 9/11 was the main trigger, as well as the War on Terror and the global financial crisis.

[ABED]

How old are you? Anti-heroes have been popular going as far back as the 70s. 9/11 didn't make people more cynical. Regardless, that wasn't my question to you, why do YOU want DB to be darker and edgier?

[Hades]

How old are you? Anti-heroes have been popular going as far back as the 70s. 9/11 didn't make people more cynical. Regardless, that wasn't my question to you, why do YOU want DB to be darker and edgier?

If 9/11 didn't make people more cynical, the entire Bush Administration and the economic crisis would have done so. Regardless, I don't see how Evil!Gohan heads to poorly drawn feet, horrific understandings of human anatomy, terrible costume designs and pouches pouches pouches.

[rereboy]

Before 9/11 people were cynical because of the cold war. At most, there was a brief optimistic period in the 90s in the western world thanks to the end of the cold war, that's all.

[Hades]

Thanks for the info. Besides, isn't Dragon Ball already "darker and edgier", with Piccolo Daimao, Freeza, Cell and Buu (the sort of thing that wouldn't be out of place in R'lyeh's depths)

[ABED]

Before 9/11 people were cynical because of the cold war. At most, there was a brief optimistic period in the 90s in the western world thanks to the end of the cold war, that's all.

None if this is true. At best it's pop psychology, and a reach at that. Back in the 30s, there was an even worse economic crisis, and a World War from a far better organized and armed enemy, and yet, people weren't cynical.

None of this explains why Hades thinks the story would benefit from such darkness.

[Hades]

Before 9/11 people were cynical because of the cold war. At most, there was a brief optimistic period in the 90s in the western world thanks to the end of the cold war, that's all.

None if this is true. At best it's pop psychology, and a reach at that. Back in the 30s, there was an even worse economic crisis, and a World War from a far better organized and armed enemy, and yet, people weren't cynical.

None of this explains why Hades thinks the story would benefit from such darkness.

1) back then, the US government never had things like Iraq or the Torture Memos soiling their image in the public mind,

2) DC had Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Killing Joke, For The Man Who Has Everything and many other good comics which looked at the implications of the setting.

[rereboy]

Before 9/11 people were cynical because of the cold war. At most, there was a brief optimistic period in the 90s in the western world thanks to the end of the cold war, that's all.

None if this is true. At best it's pop psychology, and a reach at that. Back in the 30s, there was an even worse economic crisis, and a World War from a far better organized and armed enemy, and yet, people weren't cynical.

None of this explains why Hades thinks the story would benefit from such darkness.

Back in the 30s, the media wasn't nearly as evolved as it is now. People's consciousness of the world wasn't comparable. For example, in those days people thought that going to war was great and a honor. American men even committed suicide when they weren't drafted. The horrors of war weren't as well known because media was very different and they mainly had an idealistic notion of war. When they did the feeling changed drastically.

But the 80s, 90s and nowadays is comparable in regards to that.

[Hades]

Besides, wasn't Dragonball ALREADY quite dark anyway with the main villains from Piccolo Daimao onward being utter sadists, with Buu Himself being a cosmic horror?

[ABED]

Before 9/11 people were cynical because of the cold war. At most, there was a brief optimistic period in the 90s in the western world thanks to the end of the cold war, that's all.

None if this is true. At best it's pop psychology, and a reach at that. Back in the 30s, there was an even worse economic crisis, and a World War from a far better organized and armed enemy, and yet, people weren't cynical.

None of this explains why Hades thinks the story would benefit from such darkness.

Back in the 30s, the media wasn't nearly as evolved as it is now. People's consciousness of the world wasn't comparable. For example, in those days people thought that going to war was great and a honor. American men even committed suicide when they weren't drafted. The horrors of war weren't as well known because media was very different and they mainly had an idealistic notion of war. When they did the feeling changed drastically.

But the 80s, 90s and nowadays is comparable in regards to that.

I know media was different but people understood the world, and most Americans didn't commit suicide because they couldn't fight in the war. I would be willing to be that people's understanding of the world was better back then than it is now. The reason people wanted to fight WW2 wasn't because of some sense of self-sacrificial honor. They were doing it because they wanted to protect their home after it was attacked. It was a rational war and one people understood needed to be fought. Even if they had known all of the bloody facts, they still would have gone. Do you think people were just so blind to the world around them that they thought "hooray, war!"? People understood war. If there's one thing people understand, it's battle. You've done nothing to show me you understand why the world has changed. The media wasn't what changed people's perceptions, it's what we were fighting for that changed. Fighting a war of self defense (WW2)properly is good, fighting a self sacrificial war to bring "democracy" and build schools and roads to tribalists (the war in the middle east), not so good. Though I think we've taken this discussion beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to discuss this further, PM me.

Also, this doesn't answer the question as to why Hades thinks dark inherently makes it a better story. Yes, Dragon Ball can get dark at times, but it never ceases to be a show that's benevolent at its core.

2) DC had Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Killing Joke, For The Man Who Has Everything and many other good comics which looked at the implications of the setting.

I don't know what this is in regards to.

[Rocketman]

Back in the 30s, the media wasn't nearly as evolved as it is now. People's consciousness of the world wasn't comparable. For example, in those days people thought that going to war was great and a honor. American men even committed suicide when they weren't drafted. The horrors of war weren't as well known because media was very different and they mainly had an idealistic notion of war. When they did the feeling changed drastically.

But the 80s, 90s and nowadays is comparable in regards to that.

World War One changed that ideal, not Two.

[rereboy]

Back in the 30s, the media wasn't nearly as evolved as it is now. People's consciousness of the world wasn't comparable. For example, in those days people thought that going to war was great and a honor. American men even committed suicide when they weren't drafted. The horrors of war weren't as well known because media was very different and they mainly had an idealistic notion of war. When they did the feeling changed drastically.

But the 80s, 90s and nowadays is comparable in regards to that.

World War One changed that ideal, not Two.

If memory serves, I know of this suicide thing because I listened to an interview of a second world war veteran talking about young men from his hometown that didn't get drafted and committed suicide. So, apparently it didn't change enough.

I know media was different but people understood the world, and most Americans didn't commit suicide because they couldn't fight in the war. I would be willing to be that people's understanding of the world was better back then than it is now. The reason people wanted to fight WW2 wasn't because of some sense of self-sacrificial honor. They were doing it because they wanted to protect their home after it was attacked. It was a rational war and one people understood needed to be fought. Even if they had known all of the bloody facts, they still would have gone. Do you think people were just so blind to the world around them that they thought "hooray, war!"? People understood war. If there's one thing people understand, it's battle. You've done nothing to show me you understand why the world has changed. The media wasn't what changed people's perceptions, it's what we were fighting for that changed. Fighting a war of self defense (WW2)properly is good, fighting a self sacrificial war to bring "democracy" and build schools and roads to tribalists (the war in the middle east), not so good. Though I think we've taken this discussion beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to discuss this further, PM me.

Also, this doesn't answer the question as to why Hades thinks dark inherently makes it a better story. Yes, Dragon Ball can get dark at times, but it never ceases to be a show that's benevolent at its core.

As usual, you are pushing the discussion into pointless arguments.

I argued two things:

- That cynicism already existed in the world before 9/11 and was something very much present in the cold war, for example.

- That discussing people's mentality as far back as the 30s in comparison to modern times in regards to people's cynicism doesn't make much sense because factors like evolved media and the lack of evolved media make the comparison pointless since they have a tremendous impact on people's mentality and stance towards the world. People just can't be as cynical about the world if they don't know nearly as much about what goes on with it.

Did I argue anything else? Did I even try to enter the discussion of if a dark story is better for DB or not? Did you say something that actually contradicted what I said? No. Dragging the discussion on to things that I didn't argue like a dark story for DB being better, or if people felt that fighting was necessary (like that was somehow incompatible with them also believing that it was great and a honor going to war to the the point that some of them even commit suicide) is pointless.

[ABED]

My question to Hades wasn't directed at you, but you felt obliged to chime in. Okay, great, but don't get upset and call it pointless like you're above it when you interjected with your opinion. I didn't drag the discussion on to anything else, THAT was the discussion, but Hades is the one who brought up 9/11, in other words, you're blaming the wrong guy! If you find something pointless, don't continue to respond, it's that simple.

[FrogTrigger]

I think goku and superman would get along really well

Though superman would be shocked to find out how old Goku is

[rereboy]

My question to Hades wasn't directed at you, but you felt obliged to chime in. Okay, great, but don't get upset and call it pointless like you're above it when you interjected with your opinion. I didn't drag the discussion on to anything else, THAT was the discussion, but Hades is the one who brought up 9/11, in other words, you're blaming the wrong guy! If you find something pointless, don't continue to respond, it's that simple.

I responded to Hades, not you, in regards to a very particular point. You were the one that addressed me claiming that I wasn't telling the truth, that it was a stretch and that it was pop psychology. I tried to respond to that by further explaining my only point, but you digressed the issue into other irrelevant aspects, ignoring the fact that my original point was simply that cynicism didn't start with 9/11, a point that, actually, I believe you agree in essence.

Since I see no point in being dragged into a pointless argument with someone who can't even see the essence of what I'm trying to say and insists on continuing pointless arguments and dwelling into other irrelevant aspects, turning any discussion into a never-ending fruitless debate, even going as far as trying to continue the discussion via Private Message, like you just did with me, I shut the discussion down. I could simply stop responding, but that might leave you with ill-conceived notion that somehow the validity your arguments were the cause for my sudden silence, so I prefer to be clear about things.