Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:38 pm

Scsigs wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:13 pm
jamiljamtheman wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:52 pm I do admit that Super seems to over-exaggerate some of his “worse”(?) qualities and it can be frustrating to watch him be an extra dunce and “I just wanna fight” kinda guy. But I still like him (and DBS).
The anime staff have genuinely no idea how to balance Goku's personality traits right. Admittedly, Toriyama started to overcorrect for what he perceived as Toei over-emphasizing Goku's more "heroic nice guy" traits in the anime to make Goku more oblivious to some things & more selfish in its last few arcs, which lead to some really forced moments to keep the plots going, but that's nothing compared to how the anime staff have absolutely no idea how to balance him out. Toriyama got a handle on him, so they need to as well.
I think you’re right on the nose here, the balance and over correcting is definitely noticeable at points. I think Toyataro is doing alright with Manga Goku tho which is good.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:40 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:33 pm Convo made me think of this.

Image
Woah, are these two real publications of the same page?? What’s the story behind this?

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UltraInstinctRorikon
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:58 pm

It's an artist that edited the image to fit how his personality is in Super. To show how blatantly mischaracterized he is in Super.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:14 pm

jamiljamtheman wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:40 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:33 pm Convo made me think of this.

Image
Woah, are these two real publications of the same page?? What’s the story behind this?
It's just a fanmade comparison of the perceived differences between the characterisation of Goku in Super and the original manga. Right is the original page from the Namek arc, left is the fan edit with "stupid Super Goku".

It's not entirely wrong but I don't think it's entirely ingenuous either. While Super Goku might be more lackadaisical in serious situations, it all depends on context and it implies there's something inherently bad or mischaracterised about the left image. When Goku saves Tenshinhan from Drum, he immediately switches from stern scowl to "wow, Tenshinhan, you're actually alive" with a childish grin. Is that just "stupid Super Goku"? Also, the emphasis on lower-stakes conflicts in Super allows Goku to show his silly side more often compared to the original manga, where he was always shoehorned into this stoic saviour role.

Also, didn't the very next page have Goku petulantly grill Freeza for killing Vegeta because he wanted to settle the score with Vegeta? That might just be the anime but it goes to show that there really isn't that much of a difference.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:35 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:14 pm Also, didn't the very next page have Goku petulantly grill Freeza for killing Vegeta because he wanted to settle the score with Vegeta? That might just be the anime but it goes to show that there really isn't that much of a difference.
I think that was before Freeza had killed Vegeta when Goku makes those remarks. But I didn't find it petulant at all. Goku was serious about fighting Vegeta again.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:54 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:35 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:14 pm Also, didn't the very next page have Goku petulantly grill Freeza for killing Vegeta because he wanted to settle the score with Vegeta? That might just be the anime but it goes to show that there really isn't that much of a difference.
I think that was before Freeza had killed Vegeta when Goku makes those remarks. But I didn't find it petulant at all. Goku was serious about fighting Vegeta again.
That's right, but it demonstrates Goku's weird priorities pretty well.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:42 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:14 pm
jamiljamtheman wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:40 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:33 pm Convo made me think of this.

(Removed image to make the quote less big)
Woah, are these two real publications of the same page?? What’s the story behind this?
It's just a fanmade comparison of the perceived differences between the characterisation of Goku in Super and the original manga. Right is the original page from the Namek arc, left is the fan edit with "stupid Super Goku".
Oooh I see, I got confused because I looked at them left to right, and haven’t read the manga. The other funny thing is that to me, both images could easily accurately be Goku. Just two of his different personality traits. The one on the left seems in-tune for him if the stakes of the situation weren’t so high.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm

Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:47 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:14 pm

It's not entirely wrong but I don't think it's entirely ingenuous either. While Super Goku might be more lackadaisical in serious situations, it all depends on context and it implies there's something inherently bad or mischaracterised about the left image. When Goku saves Tenshinhan from Drum, he immediately switches from stern scowl to "wow, Tenshinhan, you're actually alive" with a childish grin. Is that just "stupid Super Goku"? Also, the emphasis on lower-stakes conflicts in Super allows Goku to show his silly side more often compared to the original manga, where he was always shoehorned into this stoic saviour role.

Also, didn't the very next page have Goku petulantly grill Freeza for killing Vegeta because he wanted to settle the score with Vegeta? That might just be the anime but it goes to show that there really isn't that much of a difference.
Thank you for bringing this up, because it's something a lot of people who complain about Super's Goku characterization miss: not only is Super generally lower stakes, but Goku is far more involved in the plot than he ever was as an adult in Z. In Z, Goku was either incapacitated or fighting in the highest stakes fights. In Super, there are just far more opportunities for Goku to be his silly self that we only saw in a few brief scenes in Z (ie slapping Chi-Chi through the house).
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
Nor is he really in the Super anime in situations like that, either. He was all business with Frieza in RF, with Zamasu, and with Jiren. Stuff like U6 and his behavior towards Zamasu seem to be what really gets people's Jimmy's rustled...but neither of those were particularly significant. The U6 torunament is basically everyone goofing off, with no real stakes at all.

And hell, Goku was pretty dang casual about fighting Cell. After Buu destroyed Earth, he and Vegeta were playing rock-paper-scissors over first-dibs on fighting him and generally joking around. He got more visibly upset about Buu sleeping through his cool badass speech than anything else! And let's not even bring up Babidi's spaceship, which had Supreme Kai completely baffled.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:22 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
Nor is he really in the Super anime in situations like that, either. He was all business with Frieza in RF,
Not really. The fact that he doesn’t take his fight with Freeza very seriously is a major plot point in RF.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:25 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
That’s fair, I can’t really dispute that since I didn’t really see Z after the “namek will explode in 5 minutes” part (note: I never saw Namek explode. I got impatient :lol: )

I don’t remember him being quite like that in GT either, but I definitely remember him being a goofball in general. Again, I do think Super over exaggerated his flaws more than they needed to.

Question for people who watched Z -> GT, did Goku feel like a natural progression of his Z self in the latter show? GT has the unique position of sharing a lot of its staff with the Z anime’s staff right? So it’s basically like Toriyama handed all the reigns over to them (Toei, but more specifically the team that made Z, the Z movies, etc) and they took things from there.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:57 am

jamiljamtheman wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:25 am
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
That’s fair, I can’t really dispute that since I didn’t really see Z after the “namek will explode in 5 minutes” part (note: I never saw Namek explode. I got impatient :lol: )

I don’t remember him being quite like that in GT either, but I definitely remember him being a goofball in general. Again, I do think Super over exaggerated his flaws more than they needed to.

Question for people who watched Z -> GT, did Goku feel like a natural progression of his Z self in the latter show? GT has the unique position of sharing a lot of its staff with the Z anime’s staff right? So it’s basically like Toriyama handed all the reigns over to them (Toei, but more specifically the team that made Z, the Z movies, etc) and they took things from there.
Goku is simultaneously sillier and 150 IQ galaxy-brained in GT. So much better and more competent than everybody else to absolutely stupid degrees, while aslo having a goofy side, basically.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:52 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 pm And hell, Goku was pretty dang casual about fighting Cell. After Buu destroyed Earth, he and Vegeta were playing rock-paper-scissors over first-dibs on fighting him and generally joking around. He got more visibly upset about Buu sleeping through his cool badass speech than anything else! And let's not even bring up Babidi's spaceship, which had Supreme Kai completely baffled.
See, you forget that the Cell fight was after Toriyama started expressing dissatisfaction with the anime's interpretation of Goku making him somewhat more stereotypically "heroic." I'm pretty sure it was either during the anime's adaptation of the Freeza arc that he did that. If you pay attention, the Cell stuff is where Goku's characterization starts to take a major slip. The fact that he was slowly becoming so braindead that he didn't think of Gohan's feelings before the Cell Games is a major misstep & Toriyama really trying to over correct the anime's perception of him.
As for the Buu Saga, the rock-paper-scissors thing with Vegeta (& Gohan earlier on) is just 1 of several missteps in characterization for the both of them. First, that was something Toriyama mocked with the Ginyu Force not 2 story arcs beforehand. Second, for them to be doing that against someone they know to be a threat is genuinely just braindead behavior that they never did before &, unless I'm forgetting something, have never done again afterwards. You want jarring moments, ludo-narrative dissonance, & mood whiplash, the Buu Saga has that in spades because Toriyama tried hard to add in much more humor than he'd done in years on top of the forcing of the plot along. Weirdly enough, though there's a few things that bug the fuck out of me, at least Goku's mostly in character, or his actions make sense. In stark contrast, outside of most of the more serious moments, Super way overplays Goku's more childish nature in most moments. It's more jarring than the Buu Saga, but at least they know when to not have comedy, unlike Toriyama in the Buu Saga.
WittyUsername wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:22 am Not really. The fact that he doesn’t take his fight with Freeza very seriously is a major plot point in RF.
See, that seemed to set up a character arc for Goku & Vegeta in future stories. Unfortunately, though, it's quickly forgotten. I think Ultra Instinct was supposed to culminate his character arc & Vegeta his evolved SS Blue form, but they didn't pull that through. I'm all for characters going through arcs where their worst aspects are challenged, but it seems they quickly forgot about those.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:42 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
Nor is he really in the Super anime in situations like that, either. He was all business with Frieza in RF, with Zamasu, and with Jiren. Stuff like U6 and his behavior towards Zamasu seem to be what really gets people's Jimmy's rustled...but neither of those were particularly significant. The U6 torunament is basically everyone goofing off, with no real stakes at all.

And hell, Goku was pretty dang casual about fighting Cell. After Buu destroyed Earth, he and Vegeta were playing rock-paper-scissors over first-dibs on fighting him and generally joking around. He got more visibly upset about Buu sleeping through his cool badass speech than anything else! And let's not even bring up Babidi's spaceship, which had Supreme Kai completely baffled.
The Zamasu stuff is pretty significant to the plot, since Goku's meeting and fight with Zamasu is the catalyst for the whole arc. And Goku objectively acted in a childish and dumb way towards Zamasu, but he wasn't acting "dumb" in a funny or entertaining way, he was acting "dumb" in an obnoxious way... as in "shut the fuck up just for one sec Goku, I beg you".

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:18 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 pm And hell, Goku was pretty dang casual about fighting Cell. After Buu destroyed Earth, he and Vegeta were playing rock-paper-scissors over first-dibs on fighting him and generally joking around. He got more visibly upset about Buu sleeping through his cool badass speech than anything else! And let's not even bring up Babidi's spaceship, which had Supreme Kai completely baffled.
Yeah, for some reason many people also act as if the Cell arc had been the catalyst for a change in Goku or the point where he "learned from his mistakes", ignoring that in the Boo saga we probably have the most apathetic Goku in the entire series. He literally indirectly kills 1/3 of the Earth's population (by redirecting Majin Boo's Ki Blast) and he's like "oh, okay".

Not to mention he is also responsible for Boo's resurrection, in addition to leaving Earth's destiny in the hands of children even though he has the power to defeat Boo. Just to make it clear that I am not criticizing his character, in fact I think that the 7 years he spent in the Otherworld turn him into someone not very attached to life which makes sense and it's fine for the character.

But in terms of attitude, although I believe that Goku's attitude in Super is exaggerated at times, it's not really fair to take scenes out of context to compare because the same can easily be done in favor of DBS

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:08 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
Nor is he really in the Super anime in situations like that, either. He was all business with Frieza in RF, with Zamasu, and with Jiren. Stuff like U6 and his behavior towards Zamasu seem to be what really gets people's Jimmy's rustled...but neither of those were particularly significant. The U6 torunament is basically everyone goofing off, with no real stakes at all.

And hell, Goku was pretty dang casual about fighting Cell. After Buu destroyed Earth, he and Vegeta were playing rock-paper-scissors over first-dibs on fighting him and generally joking around. He got more visibly upset about Buu sleeping through his cool badass speech than anything else! And let's not even bring up Babidi's spaceship, which had Supreme Kai completely baffled.
He was obnoxiously like that in the Super anime. His entire Tournament of Power arc was a complete murder of his character with how goofy and aloof he was with Zeno. He's also like legitimately stupid in the Super anime like not knowing what a kiss is? Yet he inseminated Chi Chi at least twice? He's like fully okay having all his people and the universes die. Makes him come across as a complete sociopath.

Thank goodness for Super Broly movie cause prior to that I absolutely cannot stand the Super anime. Toei doesn't know how to write this series at all.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:36 am

jamiljamtheman wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:25 am
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
That’s fair, I can’t really dispute that since I didn’t really see Z after the “namek will explode in 5 minutes” part (note: I never saw Namek explode. I got impatient :lol: )

I don’t remember him being quite like that in GT either, but I definitely remember him being a goofball in general. Again, I do think Super over exaggerated his flaws more than they needed to.

Question for people who watched Z -> GT, did Goku feel like a natural progression of his Z self in the latter show? GT has the unique position of sharing a lot of its staff with the Z anime’s staff right? So it’s basically like Toriyama handed all the reigns over to them (Toei, but more specifically the team that made Z, the Z movies, etc) and they took things from there.
I recommend watching the abridged version, DBZ Kai, if you'd like to skip the filler. If you've never seen the Android/Cell saga, you've missed the best Dragon Ball has to offer, IMO.

I was excited for GT when I was a kid, but the dub was a complete mess. They skipped over a large portion of it, because they rightly assumed we'd get bored. So instead of getting bored, we were confused and lacking context. No matter how starved I am for Dragon Ball content, GT is never able to hold my attention for long.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:43 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 pm Goku is not like the left picture in Z.
Or in Dragon Ball. When Murasaki calls Hacchan a failure and threatens to detonate the bomb in him Goku gives him one of the most furious looks in the whole series.

It used to be that once the stakes of a situation were made clear, Goku took the situation seriously.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Majin Buu » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:01 pm

Noah wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:43 pm Not sure how unpopular this is, but Zamasu is not a good villain: The biggest problem is that he’s an overused character type: the self-righteous visionary villain with a god complex, and yet he has none of the depth and complexity that normally comes with that character type. He’s completely one-dimensional with a silly, threadbare motivation for hating mortals, which more or less just seems like an excuse for him to be evil. I personally just think that the character archetype doesn’t really work in the Dragon Ball universe; you can’t turn Light Yagami into a Dragon Ball villain without turning him into a caricature. But if you were going to try to make him work as a villain, more time needed to be devoted to developing his character.
I've always given Zamasu credit for being a new type of villain for Dragon Ball, but this is a good point. Some character archetypes just don't fit Dragon Ball, and an antagonist like Zamasu with ideological motives does wade into the kind of depth that Dragon Ball typically doesn't do.

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