Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:42 am

Kefla and Merged Zamasu are the only good fusions. I'm not invested in the characters of the fusions because they're not really characters with arcs. Gotenks is basically just Trunks, so I suppose he technically 'has' potential to have an arc...but well, he doesn't. Kefla and Merged Zamasu just work so much because they're natural culminations of their characters' arcs.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am

Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 am

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.
Yeah, I feel like if Gotenks is Trunks, then the same holds true that Kefla is definitely more Caulifla. I will agree with Julie in the sense that I tend to think of Kefla before Kale or Caulfila separately, though.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:58 am

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.
Kefla is the culmination of the combined Sapphic arc and the liberation of Kale from her insecurity with regards to her and Caulifla's relationship into being in-synch with her partner and engaged with the battle. Kale's arc lies in that she's now fearlessly following and secure in her relationship with Caulifla. That Caulifla takes a lead really isn't an issue at all because Kefla is still the representation of the Sapphic energy the two share.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:05 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:58 am
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.
Kefla is the culmination of the combined Sapphic arc and the liberation of Kale from her insecurity with regards to her and Caulifla's relationship into being in-synch with her partner and engaged with the battle. Kale's arc lies in that she's now fearlessly following and secure in her relationship with Caulifla. That Caulifla takes a lead really isn't an issue at all because Kefla is still the representation of the Sapphic energy the two share.
Couldn't the same still be said for Gotenks, since Trunks is shown being the more confident between him and Goten? Goten follows Trunks' lead because he's older, and because he's meeker/more polite by nature and upbringing. It wasn't treated as an arc for Goten, but it's a similar dynamic still.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:09 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:05 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:58 am
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.
Kefla is the culmination of the combined Sapphic arc and the liberation of Kale from her insecurity with regards to her and Caulifla's relationship into being in-synch with her partner and engaged with the battle. Kale's arc lies in that she's now fearlessly following and secure in her relationship with Caulifla. That Caulifla takes a lead really isn't an issue at all because Kefla is still the representation of the Sapphic energy the two share.
Couldn't the same still be said for Gotenks, since Trunks is shown being the more confident between him and Goten? Goten follows Trunks' lead because he's older, and because he's meeker/more polite by nature and upbringing. It wasn't treated as an arc for Goten, but it's a similar dynamic still.
The difference between Gotenks and Kefla was that there was no romantic undertones between Goten and Trunks.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:14 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:05 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:58 am
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.
Kefla is the culmination of the combined Sapphic arc and the liberation of Kale from her insecurity with regards to her and Caulifla's relationship into being in-synch with her partner and engaged with the battle. Kale's arc lies in that she's now fearlessly following and secure in her relationship with Caulifla. That Caulifla takes a lead really isn't an issue at all because Kefla is still the representation of the Sapphic energy the two share.
Couldn't the same still be said for Gotenks, since Trunks is shown being the more confident between him and Goten? Goten follows Trunks' lead because he's older, and because he's meeker/more polite by nature and upbringing. It wasn't treated as an arc for Goten, but it's a similar dynamic still.
Maybe, but again, there's really no arc and climax for Goten and Trunks. Kale and Caulifla have clear progression and maturation, even if it's hindered by homophobia. Gotenks also doesn't reflect back on to the arcs of Goten or Trunks because they don't really have arcs. They fuse, lose, and then fade into the background. Kale and Caulifla unite in spirit and then unite in body with Kale confidently supporting Caulifla's climbing of the summit (rising through the Super Saiyan ranks to battle Gokuu).

Merged Zamasu represents the twisted, deliciously gay and masturbatory self-love of Zamasu and his other self. Kefla represents the love and communication between Kale and Caulifla. Gotenks, Vegetto and Gogeta are just there (putting aside how fucking hot I am for Gogeta in Movie #20) to fuck around or win a battle. Gogeta's birth is a retread of the Majin Buu arc and his aftermath doesn't properly reflect back on Gokuu and Vegeta's arcs. It's just a thing they begrudgingly do because capitalism and to defeat Broli.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:41 am

Ah, OK I get that. I suppose the writers could make the Z-era Fusion characters have arcs if they wanted to, but they're moreso techniques than characters outright. Personally, I enjoy how they're employed throughout the series, as there's a certain awe and mystique about them for me, but for characters arcs, I suppose they're not the place to look.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:41 am Ah, OK I get that. I suppose the writers could make the Z-era Fusion characters have arcs if they wanted to, but they're moreso techniques than characters outright. Personally, I enjoy how they're employed throughout the series, as there's a certain awe and mystique about them for me, but for characters arcs, I suppose they're not the place to look.
Like, Goten and Trunks' fusing doesn't really mean anything nor lead to anything. It's hollow. We don't see how their dynamic changes with fusion or how they learn and grow. The fusion feels unearned and like an afterthought, especially since so many of us grew up post-original run for the series. Dragon Ball Super dramatically improved upon the use of fusion, save for Vegetto Blue and Gogeta Blue, mostly because I'm sure that Hatano Morio, Tomioka Atsuhiro, Nagamine Tatsuya and Nakamura Ryouta were too afraid of changing (developing) Gokuu and Vegeta as characters without direct involvement from Toriyama Akira. And, of course, getting Toriyama to write serious character development and change can be a hell of a thing to do.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:10 am

Unpopular opinion:

I don't think Vegeta was "done dirty" in Resurrection F as it's being propagated everywhere.
It seems to be a general opinion that Vegeta is almost entitled to be the one who killed frieza which seems like the biggest example of a headcanon blown out of proportion.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:12 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 am Like, Goten and Trunks' fusing doesn't really mean anything nor lead to anything. It's hollow. We don't see how their dynamic changes with fusion or how they learn and grow. The fusion feels unearned and like an afterthought, especially since so many of us grew up post-original run for the series. Dragon Ball Super dramatically improved upon the use of fusion, save for Vegetto Blue and Gogeta Blue, mostly because I'm sure that Hatano Morio, Tomioka Atsuhiro, Nagamine Tatsuya and Nakamura Ryouta were too afraid of changing (developing) Gokuu and Vegeta as characters without direct involvement from Toriyama Akira. And, of course, getting Toriyama to write serious character development and change can be a hell of a thing to do.
I think that's also reflective of their characters in general not getting much in the way of development. At least Goku and Vegeta had individual arcs prior to and beyond their Fusions.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:31 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:14 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:05 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:58 am

Kefla is the culmination of the combined Sapphic arc and the liberation of Kale from her insecurity with regards to her and Caulifla's relationship into being in-synch with her partner and engaged with the battle. Kale's arc lies in that she's now fearlessly following and secure in her relationship with Caulifla. That Caulifla takes a lead really isn't an issue at all because Kefla is still the representation of the Sapphic energy the two share.
Couldn't the same still be said for Gotenks, since Trunks is shown being the more confident between him and Goten? Goten follows Trunks' lead because he's older, and because he's meeker/more polite by nature and upbringing. It wasn't treated as an arc for Goten, but it's a similar dynamic still.
Maybe, but again, there's really no arc and climax for Goten and Trunks. Kale and Caulifla have clear progression and maturation, even if it's hindered by homophobia. Gotenks also doesn't reflect back on to the arcs of Goten or Trunks because they don't really have arcs. They fuse, lose, and then fade into the background. Kale and Caulifla unite in spirit and then unite in body with Kale confidently supporting Caulifla's climbing of the summit (rising through the Super Saiyan ranks to battle Gokuu).

Merged Zamasu represents the twisted, deliciously gay and masturbatory self-love of Zamasu and his other self. Kefla represents the love and communication between Kale and Caulifla. Gotenks, Vegetto and Gogeta are just there (putting aside how fucking hot I am for Gogeta in Movie #20) to fuck around or win a battle. Gogeta's birth is a retread of the Majin Buu arc and his aftermath doesn't properly reflect back on Gokuu and Vegeta's arcs. It's just a thing they begrudgingly do because capitalism and to defeat Broli.
Goten and Trunks are 10 year olds, they are too young. I don't see how there is a need or a possibility for "arc" of growth. Not everything needs a "growth" story or an "arc". Gotenks represents perfectly what they already have and there is no need for improvement which is: probably the best chemistry from best friends in the whole series. Again they're just kids. What "arc" did you want for them when they have barely lived yet.
Last edited by dva_raza on Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Xeogran » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:35 am

dva_raza wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:31 am Again they're just kids. What "arc" did you want for them when they have barely lived yet.
Goku and Gohan had big development arcs as kids that shaped who they are. Besides by now, they're mid-teenagers and not kids, yet they barely amounted to anything except for stalling Buu a bit as Gotenks.
What I want is a realization they shouldn't rely on fusion all the time when it comes to fighting.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:38 am

Goku and Gohan had big development arcs as kids that shaped who they are.
Yes, and Goku and Gohan have nothing to do with pampered Goten and Trunks

What I want is a realization they shouldn't rely on fusion all the time when it comes to fighting.

Um....why?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:16 am

dva_raza wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:31 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:14 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:05 am
Couldn't the same still be said for Gotenks, since Trunks is shown being the more confident between him and Goten? Goten follows Trunks' lead because he's older, and because he's meeker/more polite by nature and upbringing. It wasn't treated as an arc for Goten, but it's a similar dynamic still.
Maybe, but again, there's really no arc and climax for Goten and Trunks. Kale and Caulifla have clear progression and maturation, even if it's hindered by homophobia. Gotenks also doesn't reflect back on to the arcs of Goten or Trunks because they don't really have arcs. They fuse, lose, and then fade into the background. Kale and Caulifla unite in spirit and then unite in body with Kale confidently supporting Caulifla's climbing of the summit (rising through the Super Saiyan ranks to battle Gokuu).

Merged Zamasu represents the twisted, deliciously gay and masturbatory self-love of Zamasu and his other self. Kefla represents the love and communication between Kale and Caulifla. Gotenks, Vegetto and Gogeta are just there (putting aside how fucking hot I am for Gogeta in Movie #20) to fuck around or win a battle. Gogeta's birth is a retread of the Majin Buu arc and his aftermath doesn't properly reflect back on Gokuu and Vegeta's arcs. It's just a thing they begrudgingly do because capitalism and to defeat Broli.
Goten and Trunks are 10 year olds, they are too young. I don't see how there is a need or a possibility for "arc" of growth. Not everything needs a "growth" story or an "arc". Gotenks represents perfectly what they already have and there is no need for improvement which is: probably the best chemistry from best friends in the whole series. Again they're just kids. What "arc" did you want for them when they have barely lived yet.
They're characters and were for a time the main characters. You can always give them an arc. They didn't really have arcs, though, and that led to my issues in general.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Xeogran » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:16 am

dva_raza wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:38 am Um....why?
Because it doesn't help them. All the Gotenks fights in DBS ended with his loss, and yet Goten and Trunks took no valuable lesson out of it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:02 am

Xeogran wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:16 am
dva_raza wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:38 am Um....why?
Because it doesn't help them. All the Gotenks fights in DBS ended with his loss, and yet Goten and Trunks took no valuable lesson out of it.
No, I agree that they weren't effective, ever. I was just pointing out that their fusion seems to represent them for how they are and that's cool for their characters. Not everyone needs dramatic arcs in my opinion.
Goku and Gohan had horrible childhoods, especially Gohan, they had to be pushed to their limits and they went through countless life or death situations, and they also didn't know fusion.
Goten and Trunks simply have a different situation, they are both pretty spoiled and they never had to push themselves individually, that's why it makes sense that their strenght relies on the fusion
The fact that Gotenks is almost comic relief is representative of that and you can't push a dramatic arc when there's no basis for it

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:41 am

There's a very clear arc there with Goten and Trunks - carefree kids being forced to grow up. It's similar to Gohan's but not exactly the same. Gohan was someone who went from sheltered child to brave warrior. Goten and Trunks are carefree kids who could mature over the course of the story.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:09 am

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.
Yep, but that's still more interesting than the "Protagonist fusions".

Kefla is interesting because she acts exactly like Caulifla would if she was an evolution crack prodigy like Kale. The first thing Kefla does upon being born is feast on her power and cackle maniacally, almost like she's addicted to it. That's cool and that's not something Caulifla did (since she didn't have Kale's immense power). Or I guess you could say Kefla is what Kale would be if she was an extrovert like Caulifla.

Fused Zamasu is also very interesting, as the fusion of two different incarnations of the same being. Since both Zamases are extremely narcissistic and self-absorbed, Fused Zamasu is completely and utterly in love with himself to the point that it becomes hilarious. He literally spends most of his debut episode complimenting himself, bragging, enjoying his Godly power, etc.

Also it was very interesting to see the internal dynamic between the "mortal" Goku Black and the Immortal Zamasu having an effect on the Fused being, it made Fused Zamasu even more unique.

These are the "Antagonist fusions", meanwhile the "Protagonist fusions", i.e. Vegito, Gogeta, Gotenks, are extremely boring and forgettable, in terms of personality at least. They are just there, unlike Fused Zamasu and Kefla they don't have a unique, creative personality/gimmick. They're so generic and boring, they kind of don't have anything unique going on for them aside from a big power level (not even that in Gotenks' case).

Before the Broly movie, Vegito's gimmick was his sense of humour which he inherited from Goku, hence why he often toyed with his enemies, while Gogeta's gimmick was his seriousness, which he inherited from Vegeta. While Vegito was playing around with Super Buu and Fused Zamasu, Gogeta went straight for the kill vs. Janemba. But then the Broly movie retcons Gogeta's personality by having him mess around with Broly like a brat. Like when he was wasting time coming up with a name when Broly was threatening to destroy the Earth. They're pretty much the same fused being now, Vegito even lost his no-limit rule with the Future Trunks arc's reveal.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:35 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:09 am
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 am Kefla is basically just Caulifla in terms of personality.


Yep, but that's still more interesting than the "Protagonist fusions".


Maybe to you, it your personal opinion, not a fact.

I personally don't see Kefla in any way more "interesting" than the protagonists fusions.
I didn't like them separately either. One just kept whining and the other one kept trash talking the guy who is helping her transform.

"Vegito, Gogeta, Gotenks, are extremely boring and forgettable, in terms of personality at least. They're so generic and boring, they kind of don't have anything unique going on for them aside from a big power level (not even that in Gotenks' case)."

I mean again, that is your personal opinion. You find Kefla interesting because you are looking for it. This could be done to any other character.

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