Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Dragon Ball Ireland
I Live Here
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Sligo, Ireland

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 pm

GT tends to get a lot of love nowadays, or at least far more defenders than it would have had in the past. I'm not sure if it's fans that have been unhappy with Super and redirected all of their anger towards it, or it's just a case that people were just tired of trashing GT.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

User avatar
Ashur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:48 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ashur » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:34 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 pm GT tends to get a lot of love nowadays, or at least far more defenders than it would have had in the past. I'm not sure if it's fans that have been unhappy with Super and redirected all of their anger towards it, or it's just a case that people were just tired of trashing GT.
Speaking from experience, back when GT hate was more popular, people like me who actually liked most of it we just tried to avoid voicing that opinion too much on the internet and sometimes we pretended to also dislike it more than we actually did by accentuating it's faults (back in 2012-2018 i did that, then i realized it was dumb).

This is not to say i don't have legitimate complaints about GT, i dislike how it mishandles Uub, i don't like how Goku turining into a kid undermines the feeling of progression of time we had in the original series a bit (even though i mostly forgive this since it opens up new and more interesting opportunities for development of Pan and Goku's dynamic when she stops respecting him now that he's a kid), the Super 17 arc being a total mess (still better than the Zamasu and TOP), and the beginning of the shadow dragon arc dragging a lot, as the enemies weren't that interesting and it became a repetitive formula, it tried to be fun like the first few episodes but it felt too rushed and effortless, as well as the way it sidelined every character minus Goku and Pan, from the moment the 4 star dragon appears it's actually really good, but the arc as a whole suffers from the uninteresting first half.

So back then i exaggerated these points that i disliked about GT to conform to the whole "GT SUCKS" trend, but that doesn't reflect at all on what i actually felt about the show when i first watched it as a kid, in fact everyone i knew in real life loved GT when we saw it on TV or DVD in the early 2000's, i have the feeling that GT hate was more of a thing in the USA than here in Latin America, over here it was universally embraced as the same quality as DB/DBZ from the 90's to the 2000's, in the 2010's when internet culture becan to have more of an influence i noticed more people from LATAM disliked GT on the internet, likely due to the US DB fandom's detractors being so vocal in the internet, to the point more people followed the trend.

This difference in how GT is viewed here and in the US i find it could be because of how the series was aired there, here we got DB, DBZ and DBGT all continuously during the 90's, while in the US the GT dub wasn't until 2003, so there was a bigger gap with Z, a part of the audience of the earlier show wasn't fond of the changes made in GT as they grew older and thus were more critical of stuff that was different from DBZ, the series from their childhood.

Meanwhile here we always saw it as one big continuous series, we all had out favorite parts of course but i feel the majority of the hispanic DB fandom saw DB, Z and GT as the original untouchable Dragon Ball story from their childhood, so they weren't as critical to GT as the US fandom (in fact i feel the hispanic DB fandom as a whole has a hard time being critical about anything other than DBS-related media or the dubbed Kai version).

Nowdays, when people are very open to criticizing DBS, some blinded by nostalgia of the older DB series, others by legitimate criticisms of the story and how it's being handled, GT stopped being the primary focus of criticism so people are more open to defending it, some in light of Super's flaws making them change their original opinion of GT, but i feel most are just like me who simply find that they are more comfortable sharing their honest opinion of the series now that it won't get you crucified.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:02 pm

The hate for GT feels like the hate that Batman 66 got for a long time. Now after decades, I think GT is getting enough of a reappraisal that I feel like the criticisms are fair and its good points are acknowledged.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Draconic
I Live Here
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm
Location: Romania

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Draconic » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:52 am

It's weird. When people talk about GT they always say the Baby arc is the best, but I find the Shadow Dragons to be best. Everything just lands better, the comedy in the early episodes as well as the big moments in the later half. By comparasion, Baby moves super slow. There are some great moments throughout, but when the main story comes to a halt to deal with some stupid tannuki puzzle, I can't call that well-written or well-paced. The early episodes are quite boring as well .
Check out the videos below, made by yours truly!

Goku vs Beerus BOG/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/kKKnMe

Vegeta vs Freeza ROF/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/MKPepW

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:29 am

Counterargument, the story for Goku came to a halt, but Baby's plan was moving forward and Goku is powerless to stop it. He's being forced to go through a rigged game while the people he loves are being enslaved. Stories require downbeats, they can't be all rise. It's simply another variation of Goku being unable to help out while his friends take a beating.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Goten_jr
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:09 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Goten_jr » Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:14 am

The first Half of GT is much better than the second Half. super 17 arc was horrible and had the worst Fights in all of Dragon Ball. the Shadow Dragon arc had the best concept with Some Good moments here and there but the overall execution didn’t do it for me

User avatar
Ashur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:48 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ashur » Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:37 am

One of the things the Shadow Dragon arc does very well is the character of Si Xing Long, the bond he developed with Goku throughout their fight felt really genuine and it really makes you feel when he mentions that he wished he was able to end their fight normally, in the end, he didin't care about killing and destroying like his brothers and sisters, but merely enjoyed a good sporting battle, with honor, it's almost like having the 4-star Dragon Ball around the Son family for so long diminished the Negative Energy's effect on it, and the dragon that was born in it was less evil and shared some qualities with the people that had the ball in possession.

User avatar
Draconic
I Live Here
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm
Location: Romania

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Draconic » Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:37 am

Ashur wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:37 am One of the things the Shadow Dragon arc does very well is the character of Si Xing Long, the bond he developed with Goku throughout their fight felt really genuine and it really makes you feel when he mentions that he wished he was able to end their fight normally, in the end, he didin't care about killing and destroying like his brothers and sisters, but merely enjoyed a good sporting battle, with honor, it's almost like having the 4-star Dragon Ball around the Son family for so long diminished the Negative Energy's effect on it, and the dragon that was born in it was less evil and shared some qualities with the people that had the ball in possession.
Yes! I agree! Si Xing Long is definetley a highlight of the arc. And his sacrifice during the final battle is probably the most tense moment in all of GT.
Check out the videos below, made by yours truly!

Goku vs Beerus BOG/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/kKKnMe

Vegeta vs Freeza ROF/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/MKPepW

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:54 pm

Izanagi wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:54 pm
You know, my biggest delusion watching DB subtitles is that I really thought "Aitsu Wa Son Gokuu" was insert song that would play when Vegeta has this speech in the anime lol
Just to learn years later that was just a song released in a Hit Song Collection CD that wasn't meant to present in the anime at all.
Zephyr wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:35 am
I think Omen of Victory gets a lot of hate. Starting with the Future Trunks arc he improves a lot. Prior to that though, it's all just really bland to me. That might result from, as Dragon Ball Ireland says, Kikuchi setting the bar so high that something so incredibly mid gets met with possibly excessive detraction.
Exactly, the main problem with Sumitomo is that when he started at Kai 2.0 most of his tracks were bland and generic, hell compare Goku returning to Earth after 7 years and Majin Vegeta sacrifice in both Z and Kai versions you will know what I am talking about it. That's talking about the same guy who composed Life To Be Protected years ago in Battle of Gods (such a track that deserved to be used way more in the series)

But to make justice to him, when we get into FT arc is where he really shines with great tracks like: "Orchestra of Justice", "Desperate Assault", "Zamasu theme", "Regret" and also some of his good Kai 2.0 tracks had moments to shine through Super as remember "Super Saiyan Three theme" being played when Vegetto Blue made his debut? Or even "No More" when he was fighting with Merged Zamasu?
Also by the Tournament of Power is where Sumitomo shines the most! Amazing tracks like "Frantic Battle" (Android 17 theme), "The Power to Resist", "A Fierce Battle Against a Foe" and hands down the best theme in modern Dragon Ball to this day: Official Clash Of Gods/The Final Death-Match.

I don't know if Sumitomo was fired or something, cause he's being absent as a composer in Super Hero was a big miss, but that's probably cause they wanted to mimic Marvel Heroes tracks.
ATA wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:16 pm Budokai Tenkaichi 2 > Budokai Tenkaichi 3 in every aspect but the gameplay. Hell even the gameplay you can argue Tenkachi 2 did better than Tenkachi 3 in some regards. The Lock-On system in BT2 is MUCH better and fun than BT3's lock on system. The way the outfits get damaged during the battle is better in BT2 as well. Lastly the fact you can power-up your ki during a beam struggle was an underrated feature. The music in BT3 can't compare to BT2. Don't get me started on BT2 having the best story in any DBZ game (Kakarot and Budokai 1 are in the running as well). BT2 cutscenes are still fun to watch to this day. BT3 story mode is average. I do prefer how BT3 did transformations, more diversity in rush attacks, and other gameplay improvements.

Budokai Tenkaichi 2 is very underrated in the community in my opinion due to being overshadowed by Tenkaichi 3.
I agree with most with that, but even though BT2 story mode was the most complete we got in the past DB games, it's mechanic was pretty slow. Infinite loadings, we had to fly with the character exactly the place where the fight was. I would much prefer a mix between BT2 and BT3, complete, but you could skip cutscenes pressing R3 and not all battles you had the need to K.O the character. Take Raditz for example, in BT3 was fairly difficult to fight him (which made sense by the storyline), you had to drag on, until Piccolo finishes with his tecnhique, way more dynamic than BT2 forcing players to K.O the same character 3 times in a row.
BT2 had 34 music tracks (14 more than BT3), but their usage was poor as in the storymode it felt like it was "Awake" and "Lost Courage" all the way through.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
MCDaveG
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5533
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Prague, Czechia
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:28 pm

As a kid, I loved GT. It ran in TV right after Z and back then, I was hooked on the anime format of being continuous story in comparison to western story slash monster of the week. I was really saddened by the ending, which felt abrupt and I didn't want the story to end! Where is the adventure of Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. going? It was fun epilogue.

It soured a bit as I was older, finding out how it wasn't the original story as I have explored the manga and the Z ending being changed a bit to make way for GT and I didn't like the underdevelopment of characters like Uub, Vegeta and others besides Goku and Pan, with Gohan's Z days being over. Plus the Super 17 arc came as highly nonsensical. And, I was missing Shunsuke Kikuchi's music...

But later, I went back to like it both for nostalgia reasons, also Akihito Tokunaga's score is actually really good and somehow, I do like the different feel to GT and the darker color pallete.

What I liked all the time were the designs and production value, more so in comparison to Super, which looks horrendous.
Super also helped a lot to like GT more again. I said many times that Super is the sequel to Z that I would love as a kid being done back then and I prefer it to GT, but it has also a lot of issues. It can be written down in textbooks on how to not handle a sequel to one of the most popular series... well, there is also Saint Seiya Omega, but that was bad on all levels and SS is not as popular as DB.
FighterZ: Funky_Strudel
PS4: Dynamixx88

User avatar
MCDaveG
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5533
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Prague, Czechia
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:28 pm

As a kid, I loved GT. It ran in TV right after Z and back then, I was hooked on the anime format of being continuous story in comparison to western story slash monster of the week. I was really saddened by the ending, which felt abrupt and I didn't want the story to end! Where is the adventure of Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. going? It was fun epilogue.

It soured a bit as I was older, finding out how it wasn't the original story as I have explored the manga and the Z ending being changed a bit to make way for GT and I didn't like the underdevelopment of characters like Uub, Vegeta and others besides Goku and Pan, with Gohan's Z days being over. Plus the Super 17 arc came as highly nonsensical. And, I was missing Shunsuke Kikuchi's music...

But later, I went back to like it both for nostalgia reasons, also Akihito Tokunaga's score is actually really good and somehow, I do like the different feel to GT and the darker color pallete.

What I liked all the time were the designs and production value, more so in comparison to Super, which looks horrendous.
Super also helped a lot to like GT more again. I said many times that Super is the sequel to Z that I would love as a kid being done back then and I prefer it to GT, but it has also a lot of issues. It can be written down in textbooks on how to not handle a sequel to one of the most popular series... well, there is also Saint Seiya Omega, but that was bad on all levels and SS is not as popular as DB.
FighterZ: Funky_Strudel
PS4: Dynamixx88

User avatar
ATA
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:40 pm
Location: Daybreak Town

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ATA » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:31 pm

Ashur wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:34 pm
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 pm GT tends to get a lot of love nowadays, or at least far more defenders than it would have had in the past. I'm not sure if it's fans that have been unhappy with Super and redirected all of their anger towards it, or it's just a case that people were just tired of trashing GT.
the Super 17 arc being a total mess (still better than the Zamasu and TOP),
Yeah this is very unpopular. I will like to hear your reasons on how/why Super 17 >> Zamasu and TOP. Generally curious because for me Super 17 is worst saga in the entire franchise. I've never heard anyone say anything nice about Super 17 besides his design.
May Your Heart Be Your Guiding Key

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:02 am

ATA wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:31 pm
Ashur wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:34 pm
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 pm GT tends to get a lot of love nowadays, or at least far more defenders than it would have had in the past. I'm not sure if it's fans that have been unhappy with Super and redirected all of their anger towards it, or it's just a case that people were just tired of trashing GT.
the Super 17 arc being a total mess (still better than the Zamasu and TOP),
Yeah this is very unpopular. I will like to hear your reasons on how/why Super 17 >> Zamasu and TOP. Generally curious because for me Super 17 is worst saga in the entire franchise. I've never heard anyone say anything nice about Super 17 besides his design.
Should we even call it a saga? I mean, it was like... 6 episodes? 7? I feel like calling it an arc or a saga is being too generous.

What's funny is that this saga is the literal definition of filler. Even the FT arc can't be cut, because Future Zeno coming to the Present is the reason for the Zeno Exhibition match, which sets up the rivalry between U7 (Goku) and U11 (Toppo).

Meanwhile, if you cut the Super 17 """arc""", what would change exactly about the next arc? Lol.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:54 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:02 am


Meanwhile, if you cut the Super 17 """arc""", what would change exactly about the next arc? Lol.
That part where they try to bring Kuririn back to life and the evil Shen Long comes out of the dragon balls instead, which directly leads into the final arc.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:27 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:54 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:02 am


Meanwhile, if you cut the Super 17 """arc""", what would change exactly about the next arc? Lol.
That part where they try to bring Kuririn back to life and the evil Shen Long comes out of the dragon balls instead, which directly leads into the final arc.
This arc is not needed for this plot beat to happen.

The Shadow Dragons were born because the Dragon Balls were misused, so a writer could simply decide that the "last straw" could have happened with a wish made at the end of the Baby arc instead.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:16 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:27 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:54 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:02 am


Meanwhile, if you cut the Super 17 """arc""", what would change exactly about the next arc? Lol.
That part where they try to bring Kuririn back to life and the evil Shen Long comes out of the dragon balls instead, which directly leads into the final arc.
This arc is not needed for this plot beat to happen.

The Shadow Dragons were born because the Dragon Balls were misused, so a writer could simply decide that the "last straw" could have happened with a wish made at the end of the Baby arc instead.
And without the Zamasu arc Xeno can still want to see his exhibition match. The only change is only one Xeno instead of two

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:16 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:27 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:54 am

That part where they try to bring Kuririn back to life and the evil Shen Long comes out of the dragon balls instead, which directly leads into the final arc.
This arc is not needed for this plot beat to happen.

The Shadow Dragons were born because the Dragon Balls were misused, so a writer could simply decide that the "last straw" could have happened with a wish made at the end of the Baby arc instead.
And without the Zamasu arc Xeno can still want to see his exhibition match. The only change is only one Xeno instead of two
This is impossible. The Present Zeno had spectated the U6 Tournament so he already knew what to expect from the grand Tournament of Power.

The Exhibition Match was made precisely to introduce Future Zeno to the idea of tournaments.

Meanwhile, the wish made at the end of the Shadow Dragons arc was the last straw, but the Dragon Balls had been overused for years. it is not unreasonable at all to imagine a scenario where the Shadow Dragons just appear right after the Baby arc. The process of overusing the Dragon Balls had been going on for years, evil energy was already accumulating in the DBs from all the misuse that happened over the years, it's not like the wish to revive Krillin was "necessary" for a writer to create this kind of arc.

In addition, the Shadow Dragons could have been tied somehow to the Black Star dragon balls, which were at the centre of the first two arcs of DBGT.

Either way, the Super 17 arc was unneeded to kick off the final saga. You could erase it from existence and nothing would change about the Shadow Dragons arc. No one even got a new form in that arc so...

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:10 pm

This isn't an issue of plot necessity. The Ginyu Force is not needed to further the plot. They're just another obstacle, but they work because they are fun, interesting, and the fights are strong. The Super 17 arc despite being half as long is boring and a slog to get through.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:26 pm

The Super #17 Arc is weird. It's like they had many leftover ideas, mostly lifted from earlier storylines, but had no idea how to piece it all together coherently. After the Baby Arc was plotted out quite intelligently, it's frustrating how the writing suddenly takes this horrible nosedive. All of the characters suddenly become pathetic idiots... more so than usual. Kuririn dies for the 50th time (admittedly this one is quite moving), the Z-Warriors are fodderized again, Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu haven't learned at all from their past mistakes, the housewife squad suddenly want to get involved for no reason whatsoever, Freeza and Cell are unrecognisable comic stooges, and the final battle is possibly Goku's most embarrassing performance ever. It's like he completely forgot how to fight until the last minute. It was a wasted opportunity to bring #17 back and give him no good characterisation. I'm thankful Dragon Ball Super corrected that.

AFAIK, there's really not that much info out there about what went on behind the scenes of this arc, right? I'd be interested to see what inspired them and what went so wrong, lol.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:00 pm

The overuse of the dragon balls was stupid IMO.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

Post Reply