Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by NickLord » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:53 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:11 pm
Majin Buu wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:44 pm

People claiming "objectivity" when it comes to opinions on media often feel like they're just trying to disguise their subjective opinions as facts.
This is what it usually ends up being.

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 pm Talk of objective quality gets on my nerves. At the end of the day, who the hell decides these universal quality standards? There's nothing measurable or provable about something being "good" or "bad", they're totally subjective value judgments. I could call The Room a great movie*, am I "objectively wrong" for saying that? If so, how can I be proven wrong? The most you can call me is an idiot. And I would reply that you smell.

*unironically, I think it is pretty great for the amount of influence it's had on pop culture and the joy it's brought to people, enough for it to still run regularly in some theatres



You all just proved me right. This relativist PC refusal to admit that anything is obviously better or worse than anything else by claiming "its just your opinion bro" as if that debunks anything, or "all opinions have value" when they clearly don't.

And you guys are making a false dichotomy between facts and opinions. Opinions are just views that someone holds, facts are views that happen to be true.
ABED wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:16 pm There is objective reality, but tastes in art is absolutely subjective. How do you even go about proving something is good? What are the standards?


Humans and even wild animals are born with an innate intuitive sense of what's beautiful or what's quality and much of that is universal to all people and cultures. Folks who deny this obvious fact are usually driven by ideology, resentment and/or insecurity.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:56 pm

Explain then what are these objective qualities instead of YOU WRONG BRO.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:00 pm

I'm having deja vu. Someone used that EXACT argument with pretty much those same words when bringing up this subject.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:02 pm

NickLord wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:53 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:11 pm
Majin Buu wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:44 pm

People claiming "objectivity" when it comes to opinions on media often feel like they're just trying to disguise their subjective opinions as facts.
This is what it usually ends up being.

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 pm Talk of objective quality gets on my nerves. At the end of the day, who the hell decides these universal quality standards? There's nothing measurable or provable about something being "good" or "bad", they're totally subjective value judgments. I could call The Room a great movie*, am I "objectively wrong" for saying that? If so, how can I be proven wrong? The most you can call me is an idiot. And I would reply that you smell.

*unironically, I think it is pretty great for the amount of influence it's had on pop culture and the joy it's brought to people, enough for it to still run regularly in some theatres



You all just proved me right. This relativist PC refusal to admit that anything is obviously better or worse than anything else by claiming "its just your opinion bro" as if that debunks anything, or "all opinions have value" when they clearly don't.

And you guys are making a false dichotomy between facts and opinions. Opinions are just views that someone holds, facts are views that happen to be true.

[
Nobody’s proven you right because you’re not making any point. You’re just saying things.


Like everyone knows the difference between a fact and an opinion. What everyone is trying to tell you is art is mostly subjective. You’ve done nothing to counter this. Besides say “Hey everyone knows The Room is a really bad movie!”

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:05 pm

Also, it should be noted that even if quality was objective, we don't experience art objectively. It's all about how it makes people feel.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:30 pm

NickLord wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:53 pm You all just proved me right. This relativist PC refusal to admit that anything is obviously better or worse than anything else by claiming "its just your opinion bro" as if that debunks anything, or "all opinions have value" when they clearly don't.

And you guys are making a false dichotomy between facts and opinions. Opinions are just views that someone holds, facts are views that happen to be true.
There is objectivity to art, but only in the observable facts about it, like, say, the Dragon Ball manga consisting of 519 chapters. Notice that that statement says nothing about Dragon Ball's quality, which has no way of being objectively measured.

Some opinions are naturally going to be given more weight and value, but that doesn't make their opinions any more objectively factual. Sorry, but it really is that binary.
Humans and even wild animals are born with an innate intuitive sense of what's beautiful or what's quality and much of that is universal to all people and cultures.
Nope. Different cultures across the world often have radically different views on beauty, that's not even getting down the infinite variations in individuals' tastes.
Folks who deny this obvious fact are usually driven by ideology, resentment and/or insecurity.
In my experience, the exact opposite is true. People who try to peddle their subjective opinions as objective facts tend to be the ones who are incredibly insecure about the validity of their views, so need to find "objective" reinforcement to their beliefs. There's usually a weird ideological paranoia slant as well (i.e. accusing us all of being "PC"). This doesn't work with art, because no matter what you try to say is The Correct Opinion, someone out there will disagree... and then what? What hard, scientific proof can you wave in their face to disprove them? All you can do is disagree right back.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Skar » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:46 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:00 pm I'm having deja vu. Someone used that EXACT argument with pretty much those same words when bringing up this subject.
Hmm I searched "objective reality" on the forum and found this comment:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:04 pm

COMPLETE WITH the whole PC Bullshit thing!
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:59 pm

Thanks Skar. And holy crap, not only "objective quality" but objective quality and beauty! This can't be coincidence. I'm not sure what it means but there's some link between these two posters.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MetaMoss » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:12 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:59 pm Thanks Skar. And holy crap, not only "objective quality" but objective quality and beauty! This can't be coincidence. I'm not sure what it means but there's some link between these two posters.
Probably nothing more than the unfortunate reality that there's too many folks under the impression that "objective quality" is a thing.

It's so tiring to see over and over again... especially when you start hearing it in real life, too. I can only think of one occasion where that happened, but that's one too many.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Civic » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:17 pm

I was about to post about how I hate when people think a specific version is the only objectively right/good one and everyone else's version sucks and I honestly thought it was an unpopular opinion, based on my interactions with some DB fans. I'm happy to see from this last page at least that it isn't unpopular.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by NickLord » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:02 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:30 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:53 pm You all just proved me right. This relativist PC refusal to admit that anything is obviously better or worse than anything else by claiming "its just your opinion bro" as if that debunks anything, or "all opinions have value" when they clearly don't.

And you guys are making a false dichotomy between facts and opinions. Opinions are just views that someone holds, facts are views that happen to be true.
There is objectivity to art, but only in the observable facts about it, like, say, the Dragon Ball manga consisting of 519 chapters. Notice that that statement says nothing about Dragon Ball's quality, which has no way of being objectively measured.

Some opinions are naturally going to be given more weight and value, but that doesn't make their opinions any more objectively factual. Sorry, but it really is that binary.
Humans and even wild animals are born with an innate intuitive sense of what's beautiful or what's quality and much of that is universal to all people and cultures.
Nope. Different cultures across the world often have radically different views on beauty, that's not even getting down the infinite variations in individuals' tastes.
Folks who deny this obvious fact are usually driven by ideology, resentment and/or insecurity.
In my experience, the exact opposite is true. People who try to peddle their subjective opinions as objective facts tend to be the ones who are incredibly insecure about the validity of their views, so need to find "objective" reinforcement to their beliefs. There's usually a weird ideological paranoia slant as well (i.e. accusing us all of being "PC"). This doesn't work with art, because no matter what you try to say is The Correct Opinion, someone out there will disagree... and then what? What hard, scientific proof can you wave in their face to disprove them? All you can do is disagree right back.
- Writing quality and picture itself is directly observable and in fact can be directly measured. There's even AI created now just for that. And you just contradicted yourself, if no opinions are objectively factual then no opinions have any more weight and value than any other.

- Its been proven by science as well as common sense that at least 50% of the things and traits people find beautiful or attractive is universal among all cultures and history. a lot of the traits and features people falsely call "Western" beauty standards were already seen as desirable by literally every major culture, civilization and even religions for over thousands of years. And a lot of things seen in other cultures that people falsely use to prove that beauty is just a subjective social construct were never actually seen nor intended to be beautiful by those cultures to begin with. Its mainly insecure ugly people who the deny the reality of objective beauty.

- "In my experience, the exact opposite is true. People who try to peddle their subjective opinions as objective facts tend to be the ones who are incredibly insecure about the validity of their views, so need to find "objective" reinforcement to their beliefs."

You are projecting. Relativism and the belief that there's no objective facts is nothing more than an excuse to believe in any comforting feel-good nonsense they want without any regard for proof or logic. After all, there's no need to eventually face reality if there's no reality to face. It takes real inner strength and maturity to put ones personal biases and desires to the side and see things truthfully even if its negative.

And just because people disagree with something doesn't mean its false, group consensus doesn't equal fact. If the entire world agreed that 2+2=5 it would still be wrong. Also, you can subjectively like or dislike something while also acknowledging that its objectively good or bad.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am

Look man, at the end of the day you just have to explain your position well and hope the other person is close enough to your logical wavelength to see where you're coming from and reassess their own opinions. While I do have my own personal standards and do think a certain way about certain properties and the people who like them (and more importantly, their reasons for liking them), at the end of the day I can't jump into a motherfuckers brain and force them to look for the same thing in art I do. I can tolerate the shitty CGI in a 1990s flick but other people can't and if they can break down why, hey.

I try to argue against logic, not opinions, but I probably fail more than I succeed at that. Most of us probably do, and that's why we're not lawyers :)

And I'm also pretty certain you're Sadala Elite considering he's banned and all.

IN FACT, this isn't even the first time you've come back from a ban to repeat an argument, Peter!

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=45542&p=1677057&hi ... e#p1677057

Shit, Logan, you've had this same argument with him on his alt before
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:48 am
UI Peter wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:32 pm Also, your opinions above about Naruto (what is so thematically inconsistent about it?), One Piece (who is the story "bloated"?) and Attack on Titan (what does it fail to attempt?) is easily objectively false (and if you could make a full essay about your views then why haven't you?) and are all objectively better than most of DB.

Most modern Shonen is better than Super, and DB on the whole isn't as self-aware nor as deconstructive as you make it sound. It's a mainly straight forward early shonen series that Toriyama himself said has no message nor major themes.
How are any of those "objectively" better than DB? By what metrics?


Ah, my memory is too good. I distinctly remember when this happened before.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Skar » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:40 am

NickLord wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:02 amYou are projecting. Relativism and the belief that there's no objective facts is nothing more than an excuse to believe in any comforting feel-good nonsense they want without any regard for proof or logic. After all, there's no need to eventually face reality if there's no reality to face. It takes real inner strength and maturity to put ones personal biases and desires to the side and see things truthfully even if its negative.

And just because people disagree with something doesn't mean its false, group consensus doesn't equal fact. If the entire world agreed that 2+2=5 it would still be wrong. Also, you can subjectively like or dislike something while also acknowledging that its objectively good or bad.
Everyone here realizes the difference between an objective fact and opinion about a manga. You keep going on about this but not answering the question asked after your first comment. Could you give examples of objective opinions you've had in other threads? That comment seems like it was directed towards people who disagreed with your opinion so at least state what these opinions were.
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 amIN FACT, this isn't even the first time you've come back from a ban to repeat an argument, Peter!
Wow it's hard to believe someone would make it that obvious by posting almost the same word for word comment in three different accounts. It's even harder to believe he'd argue with the same people over the same topic and assume they wouldn't notice!

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:08 am

Hell if I'm not completely crazy this isn't even thebm first time ABED has been in an argument and realized the other guy was a banned alt. Could that have been him too?!

Another case of him getting in that objective beauty argument with the same logic:
Sadala Elite wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:07 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:17 am
Sadala Elite wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:01 pm
Seeing it as it actually is and not what you want/think it ought to be. Basically, to view something without projecting.
I'd contest that it's impossible to "objectively" view ANY piece of media. "Seeing it as it actually is" is a great path to take if all you're looking to do is a plot summary, but an actual critical view of something, an actual assessment of the work itself?

A couple of years ago, Jim Sterling did a great "100% objective review" of Final Fantasy XIII, which illustrates very nicely why the entire idea of an "objective assessment" is mornic shit, and while that was specifically about a video game, the points he makes with the video apply to all media.
You can observe a lot of facts, but any opinon, any critical view, any actual assessment or view of any kind is subjective, so not allowed.
Could you say that Piccolo arc is a brutal tone change that changes all the rules of Dragon Ball forever, and Piccolo himself is a masterful mix of funny and terrifying that serves the weird balance of tone?... No, because all of that is subjective; you'd have to say that the Piccolo arc is an arc in Dragon Ball, and Piccolo is a character in the story whose goals run counter to the protagonists, making him an antagonist... Which tells you nothing of any interest.

Now, this said, it's entirely reasonable to say you're tired of peoples' assessments of Dragon Ball being clouded by nostalgia for this or that version they happened to grow up on, and that's a common complaint in this fandom, but this is an entirely different thing from wanting an "objective" viewpoint.
This is relativist BS. Denying the reality of objective judgements is like denying 2+2=4.
Sadala Elite wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:18 pm
To claim that there's no such thing as objective art quality is pure relativist denialism. Its like denying the existence of truth/fact itself.

Just because people use subjective feelings to measure\judge something doesn't mean there's no objective metric to view anything.

Is 2+2=4 just a subjective opinion to you?

Same analogy and frequent use of "relativism" and yup, ABED and Logan were arguing him there too!

EDIT: IT AINT OVA MUTHAFUCKA

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=40640&p=1556019&hi ... y#p1556019

this guy has been doing this for four damn years!!!!

And sure enough ABED, here you are in 2019 realizing that you've been Zarmack'd/ruler'd/Sadala'd/Peter/Nick'd
ABED wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:41 pm We've had this EXACT conversation. I have ZERO interest in doing it again, in large part because I believe your conception of self esteem to be way off base. The second article uses self esteem in that BS way they talked to kids about in school. It amounted to little more than "feel good about yourself".
Time is a flat fucking circle. So what we have here is a guy who is bitter over a ban from 2018 and just keeps coming back every few months to have the same arguments and getting outed. This is some Saturday Morning Cartoon shit.

I don't know who's crazier: you for doing this for 4 years with the same exact arguments every time, or me for dogging this all up at 1 in the fucking morning and even remembering it at all.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:33 am, edited 4 times in total.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:11 am

I don't think it's too difficult to understand how objective quality in art might exist, or even objective beauty for that matter. Art and beauty can be as technical as they are abstract. So I can see his point.

However, to say that these things are all 100% objective is probably faulty, considering how much subjectivity and bias exists within society. Just because some standards are universal doesn't mean that they haven't been shaped by biases. Or that one set of universal standards can't become predominant at the expense of another set of universal standards.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MetaMoss » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:26 am

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:11 am I don't think it's too difficult to understand how objective quality in art might exist, or even objective beauty for that matter. Art and beauty can be as technical as they are abstract. So I can see his point.

However, to say that these things are all 100% objective is probably faulty, considering how much subjectivity and bias exists within society. Just because some standards are universal doesn't mean that they haven't been shaped by biases. Or that one set of universal standards can't become predominant at the expense of another set of universal standards.
But even the technical aspects of art don't have any way of translating to a measure of "objective good". The closest I can think of is saying one piece of art displays a more proficient use of some techincal aspect than another, but that doesn't stop anyone from holding the less proficient piece in higher regard.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:29 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:08 am Hell if I'm not completely crazy this isn't even thebm first time ABED has been in an argument and realized the other guy was a banned alt. Could that have been him too?!
Touche, but in my defense, I don't know they're likely the same person until they out themselves.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:19 am

ABED wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:29 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:08 am Hell if I'm not completely crazy this isn't even thebm first time ABED has been in an argument and realized the other guy was a banned alt. Could that have been him too?!
Touche, but in my defense, I don't know they're likely the same person until they out themselves.
Oh no, I'm not blaming you at all. Sure, there are plenty of similar opinions and everything but when so much of the verbiage used is the same it becomes obvious. I just think it's hilarious that he's done this so many times that the exact same users have wound up outing him :lol:
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:02 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am Look man, at the end of the day you just have to explain your position well and hope the other person is close enough to your logical wavelength to see where you're coming from and reassess their own opinions. While I do have my own personal standards and do think a certain way about certain properties and the people who like them (and more importantly, their reasons for liking them), at the end of the day I can't jump into a motherfuckers brain and force them to look for the same thing in art I do. I can tolerate the shitty CGI in a 1990s flick but other people can't and if they can break down why, hey.

I try to argue against logic, not opinions, but I probably fail more than I succeed at that. Most of us probably do, and that's why we're not lawyers :)

And I'm also pretty certain you're Sadala Elite considering he's banned and all.

IN FACT, this isn't even the first time you've come back from a ban to repeat an argument, Peter!

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=45542&p=1677057&hi ... e#p1677057

Shit, Logan, you've had this same argument with him on his alt before
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:48 am
UI Peter wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:32 pm Also, your opinions above about Naruto (what is so thematically inconsistent about it?), One Piece (who is the story "bloated"?) and Attack on Titan (what does it fail to attempt?) is easily objectively false (and if you could make a full essay about your views then why haven't you?) and are all objectively better than most of DB.

Most modern Shonen is better than Super, and DB on the whole isn't as self-aware nor as deconstructive as you make it sound. It's a mainly straight forward early shonen series that Toriyama himself said has no message nor major themes.
How are any of those "objectively" better than DB? By what metrics?


Ah, my memory is too good. I distinctly remember when this happened before.
Holy shit, good catch guys. I knew I'd definitely had this exact argument before, probably several times. :lol: I'm stuck in a damn time-loop.
Image
- Writing quality and picture itself is directly observable and in fact can be directly measured. There's even AI created now just for that. And you just contradicted yourself, if no opinions are objectively factual then no opinions have any more weight and value than any other.
From what precious little I know about AI technology (I'll have to phone a friend on that), there aren't many out there that can write coherent fiction, let alone "objectively good" stuff, so that doesn't prove anything. All they tend to do is imitate patterns.

Opinions that have reasoning and arguments behind them tend to be given more attention than ones that don't.
- Its been proven by science as well as common sense that at least 50% of the things and traits people find beautiful or attractive is universal among all cultures and history. a lot of the traits and features people falsely call "Western" beauty standards were already seen as desirable by literally every major culture, civilization and even religions for over thousands of years. And a lot of things seen in other cultures that people falsely use to prove that beauty is just a subjective social construct were never actually seen nor intended to be beautiful by those cultures to begin with. Its mainly insecure ugly people who the deny the reality of objective beauty.
Okay, this is getting into some questionable "where da white women at" territory. When Western beauty standards started getting forced onto other cultures through trade and colonialism, there was an exchange on both sides as cultures took a liking to the exoticism of the other (I mean there's plenty of shit that the Anglosphere has nicked from other cultures), but that doesn't prove that Western beauty standards are automatically superior.

Superficial beauty isn't even the only litmus test for what makes "good art". Some of Goya's work is meant to be as ugly and disturbing as possible, that doesn't make it any worse than anything by Singer Sargent.

- "In my experience, the exact opposite is true. People who try to peddle their subjective opinions as objective facts tend to be the ones who are incredibly insecure about the validity of their views, so need to find "objective" reinforcement to their beliefs."

You are projecting. Relativism and the belief that there's no objective facts is nothing more than an excuse to believe in any comforting feel-good nonsense they want without any regard for proof or logic. After all, there's no need to eventually face reality if there's no reality to face. It takes real inner strength and maturity to put ones personal biases and desires to the side and see things truthfully even if its negative.

And just because people disagree with something doesn't mean its false, group consensus doesn't equal fact. If the entire world agreed that 2+2=5 it would still be wrong. Also, you can subjectively like or dislike something while also acknowledging that its objectively good or bad.
This is exactly what I'm arguing against, so I guess we don't disagree on everything after all? At the end of the day, all you're basing your objective quality standards on is group-approved consensus.

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