Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:39 pm

"Cannon fodder" is not a "characteristic", it is a role a character has in a story, as cannon fodder can be classified as a type of "side character". A "characteristic" has to do with a character's identity. For example, Yamcha is boastful and cocky, Tenshinhan went from being mean spirited to humble and reserved, Krillin is fearful but still displays courage, and Chaozu comes off as mysterious and child-like.
There is no need to see them as cannon fodder because they are ALREADY cannon fodder. You are correct in saying that they don't matter too much, but that is not really a good thing. After all, "it's not the character's fault, it's the writer's".
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:29 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:39 pm "Cannon fodder" is not a "characteristic", it is a role a character has in a story, as cannon fodder can be classified as a type of "side character". A "characteristic" has to do with a character's identity. For example, Yamcha is boastful and cocky, Tenshinhan went from being mean spirited to humble and reserved, Krillin is fearful but still displays courage, and Chaozu comes off as mysterious and child-like.
There is no need to see them as cannon fodder because they are ALREADY cannon fodder. You are correct in saying that they don't matter too much, but that is not really a good thing. After all, "it's not the character's fault, it's the writer's".
Ok, I double checked to make sure I wasn't misremembering what characterization meant and it turns out you're right! I was under the misimpression that characterization meant a character's role in the story and that character development/personality was their mannerisms, philosophy, and attitude. So my bad.

I still think "cannon fodder" is the best way to describe Yamcha and Tenshinhan's roles in the story and that their "characterizations" are mostly irrelevant. Like most of the cast, they act the way Toriyama finds most amusing in the moment, so the most important thing to know about both is that they get demolished whenever a real threat shows up.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes

PanSimpson
Banned
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:36 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PanSimpson » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:00 am

Oh boy:
  • Sean Schemmel IS Goku to ME.
  • I like the how the more heroic Funimation dub version of Goku and they made him the anime equivalent of Superman OVER what Goku is “supposed” to be.
  • I like the Dragon Ball Super anime even if it has nothing on the original DB, DBZ or GT.

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am

PanSimpson wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:00 am Oh boy:
  • Sean Schemmel IS Goku to ME.
  • I like the how the more heroic Funimation dub version of Goku and they made him the anime equivalent of Superman OVER what Goku is “supposed” to be.
  • I like the Dragon Ball Super anime even if it has nothing on the original DB, DBZ or GT.
I prefer Sean too.
Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
It's ok to like Super. It's just got a LOT of flaws.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:26 am

Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
Goku is akin to many of the Greek heroes as most of them end up doing good deeds due to circumstance rather than pure altruism. Although, it is unlikely that Goku will encounter a tragic demise a la Theseus.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:21 am

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:26 am
Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
Goku is akin to many of the Greek heroes as most of them end up doing good deeds due to circumstance rather than pure altruism. Although, it is unlikely that Goku will encounter a tragic demise a la Theseus.
Plus, minus a few times where Goku didn't because Toriyama wanted to force plot points along-I mean, Goku didn't think it was a good idea, he's usually proactive in a want to stop the bad guys. He's unconventional at times, but Goku IS a hero.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:17 am

PanSimpson wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:00 am Oh boy:
  • Sean Schemmel IS Goku to ME.
  • I like the how the more heroic Funimation dub version of Goku and they made him the anime equivalent of Superman OVER what Goku is “supposed” to be.
I agree, english dub version of Goku, at least in original Z dub, was cooler. But they went too far in GT with all the "i am the light" bullshit, but well almost everything of their GT dub was terrible anyway. I didn't watch DBS dubbed so i can't say anything about that.

And i actually like "ally to good, nightmare to you" speech lol, it's stupid but fun and imo Goku calling himself protector of innocents is more accurate description of his persona than him calling himself a legendary warrior that came from Earth to destroy Frieza.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4048
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:49 am

Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
He's a hypocrite... He claims that he can't stand the thought of people getting erased from existence, but then he befriends and fistbumps with an apathetic child who erased an entire multiverse from existence.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:04 am

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:26 am
Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
Goku is akin to many of the Greek heroes as most of them end up doing good deeds due to circumstance rather than pure altruism. Although, it is unlikely that Goku will encounter a tragic demise a la Theseus.
The Greek heroes may not have always been motivated by altruism but they were motivated by a sense of right and wrong. It was part of their quasi divine nature and what continues to make them so relatable. Even at their pettiest they were reacting to a perceived slight against themselves or their loved ones something we're all guilty of. What Achilles does is just an exaggeration of the things we've done or wanted to do to others when seeing red.

Not trying to be a pedant here. It's just that Goku doesn't really have any good Western parallels. The closest (as far as I can tell) is Beowulf who goes in chase of Grendel because he's heard how dangerous it is and leaves once there are no more kills worth making. Despite being welcomed into Hrothgar's hall and being treated like a son and even realizing that Ingeld was preparing to turn against Hrothgar, Beowulf leaves them all to their own devices once his thrills have been satisfied. There's something fundamentally inhuman about the way he approaches the world which (I think) is why so many high school kids walk away disliking him.

And I think that gets to why the Funi dub has had such legs. Toriyama's Goku isn't all that likeable or relatable. Nothing he does makes any fucking sense. Funimation overshot the goal (I think TOEI themselves hit a pretty good balance) but judging by the response of the North American fandom, they made the right call. However boring an uber-empathetic goody-goody Funi!Goku might be, it was easy to understand why people trusted him and why you should root for him. There's a good chance that Goku the callous, thrill seeker wouldn't have gone over all that well even in the irony poisoned hellscape of late 90s America.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:17 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:49 am
Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
He's a hypocrite... He claims that he can't stand the thought of people getting erased from existence, but then he befriends and fistbumps with an apathetic child who erased an entire multiverse from existence.
Those aren’t mutually exclusive. You can be a hero and still be a hypocrite

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:28 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:49 am
Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 am Realistically, Goku IS a hero, just not a traditional hero.
He's a hypocrite... He claims that he can't stand the thought of people getting erased from existence, but then he befriends and fistbumps with an apathetic child who erased an entire multiverse from existence.
I don't see how Goku being friends with Zeno makes him a hypocrite. If we look at it, Zeno IS just a child mentally & doesn't erase universes lightly. You may not agree with his reason he did that, but he did it because he didn't know if they deserved to continue existing. It's a thing in some media dealing with deities to have the gods wondering if the beings under them deserve to live & needing a reason to just not wipe them out, which was the entire point of the Tournament of Power. 17's wish to restore the other universes was what proved to Zeno that not every mortal is awful & there's still some good left in the universes. Again, you don't have to agree (I certainly don't), but it doesn't make Zeno evil, just a chaotic neutral. Goku's a chaotic good, so he's gonna wanna stop that & he's gonna enjoy doing that, hence why he was ecstatic for the tournament. Goku's not a hypocrite for befriending Zeno. He'd be a hypocrite for befriending someone like Freeza or Cell, the chaotic evils of the universe, while they're still evil, though he has a report going with Freeza that's endlessly entertaining.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:04 am Toriyama's Goku isn't all that likeable or relatable. Nothing he does makes any fucking sense.
I find him very likable. And what about his actions don't make sense? He has a primary motivation that I think everyone gets - be the best you can be and keep pushing through your limits. I haven't been to many gyms but without fail, I always see one person wearing a Goku t-shirt. That speaks volumes.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:28 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm I find him very likable. And what about his actions don't make sense? He has a primary motivation that I think everyone gets - be the best you can be and keep pushing through your limits.
You find him likeable because the people in this fandom have conditioned themselves to defend anything and everything about him as a hopelessly misguided backlash to the Funimation dub.
I haven't been to many gyms but without fail, I always see one person wearing a Goku t-shirt. That speaks volumes.
Yeah, it shows that Funi was right to move him in a more heroic direction and that an underdog story sells.

By the way, you ever stop to talk to those guys? Ask them about Buu or Gohan? Guarantee you most them agree that turning Gohan into a pussy was a bad choice. Probably have some mean things to say about the art in DBS too
Last edited by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips on Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 946
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:31 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:04 am Toriyama's Goku isn't all that likeable or relatable. Nothing he does makes any fucking sense.
I find him very likable. And what about his actions don't make sense? He has a primary motivation that I think everyone gets - be the best you can be and keep pushing through your limits. I haven't been to many gyms but without fail, I always see one person wearing a Goku t-shirt. That speaks volumes.
I agree wholeheartedly. Goku is a cultural icon who means so much to so many. However, he also has a clearly defined character and isn't some bland lead.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:42 pm

Goku isn’t likable he only

Made the decision to divert his attention for his journey to help a turtle back home

Made friends with an obnoxious little monk that acted like a dick to him at first and even encouraged him as a fighter

Made the decision to get all the dragon balls together so his new friend Upa could wish for his dad back

Missed his grandfather dearly and was happy to briefly reunite with him one last time

Went after a demon to avenge the death of his best friend

Refused to give up on Shen Long being gone forever so his best friend and martial arts master weren’t trapped in limbo forever

Agreed to marry a woman because he had promised her even though he didn’t know what marriage meant and “a promise is a promise to him”

Had a decent relationship with his son (albeit lacking in any type of real parenting but Goku being a lousy father and husband is another can of worms)

Made friends with pretty much all of his rivals and didn’t hold grudges on any of the ones that tried to outright murder him



But yes Goku is unlikable and it’s only the Funimation dub that made him likable. That wasn’t at all present in the original text :roll:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:46 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:28 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm I find him very likable. And what about his actions don't make sense? He has a primary motivation that I think everyone gets - be the best you can be and keep pushing through your limits.
You find him likeable because the people in this fandom have conditioned themselves to defend anything and everything about him as a hopelessly misguided backlash to the Funimation dub.
I haven't been to many gyms but without fail, I always see one person wearing a Goku t-shirt. That speaks volumes.
Yeah, it shows that Funi was right to move him in a more heroic direction and that an underdog story sells.

By the way, you ever stop to talk to those guys? Ask them about Buu or Gohan? Guarantee you most them agree that turning Gohan into a pussy was a bad choice. Probably have some mean things to say about the art in DBS too
You're right, I don't have any rational reasons why I like the character, I've convinced myself I like him out of spite. Nevermind I was a fan before I ever saw the dub.

I won't even touch that last bit as it's beside the point and utterly ridiculous.

And the dub didn't turn Goku into an underdog.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:51 pm

Goku's been an adult for much longer than he was a kid. All that heroic stuff is something Toriyama has deliberately been moving Goku away from since Namek.

And it's a little hard to take Goku's "let bygones be bygones" schtick positively when he's letting Space Hitler reestablish his alien empire.

Goku was a great kid. Too bad he grew up.
ABED wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:46 pm You're right, I don't have any rational reasons why I like the character, I've convinced myself I like him out of spite.
I can only hope the rest of the fandom follows your example.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes

Kinokima
I Live Here
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:52 pm

I like Sean Schemmel’s Goku but I LOVE Nozawa as Goku so not really sure where Goku is only likable in the dub is coming from. That’s certainly not how I feel

Though as for an unpopular opinion while I don’t mind Schemmel as Goku I really dislike Sabat as Vegeta. I like Sabat in other roles so it’s not his acting that is the issue I just don’t like his Vegeta at all. It’s Horikawa all the way for me ( I am pretty sure I mentioned this before on this thread but since we are talking about dub vs sub I thought I would mention it again)
Last edited by Kinokima on Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5103
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:52 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:28 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm I find him very likable. And what about his actions don't make sense? He has a primary motivation that I think everyone gets - be the best you can be and keep pushing through your limits.
You find him likeable because the people in this fandom have conditioned themselves to defend anything and everything about him as a hopelessly misguided backlash to the Funimation dub.
I haven't been to many gyms but without fail, I always see one person wearing a Goku t-shirt. That speaks volumes.
Yeah, it shows that Funi was right to move him in a more heroic direction and that an underdog story sells.

By the way, you ever stop to talk to those guys? Ask them about Buu or Gohan? Guarantee you most them agree that turning Gohan into a pussy was a bad choice. Probably have some mean things to say about the art in DBS too
I take offense that you seem to think the world revolves around the Funimation dub. Sure, I admit I also was about to agree with you by saying, "Those could have been Funimation fans" to ABED but not everything revolves around that little company in Texas. What would you have said to someone with NO exposure to Funimation? Like a Japanese fan?

Also sunsetshimmer you seem to be confusing accuracy with what you like better, Sure the whole Saiyan Warrior from Earth might not be as good as the Warrior of Justice portrayal but it is indeed more accurate.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:56 pm

Even through the dub, I think Goku's basic motivation shines through and is clear. That's what appeals to people in those gyms. Gyms are all about pushing yourself to your limits and beyond.

Anyway I like Schemmel as well. I liked him right off the bat. He was a breath of fresh air after Kelamis.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Post Reply