Unpopular DB opinions

[MasenkoHA]

People on this site have a tendancy to blame every little misconception on Funimation's dub, even when it's completely unfounded.

I will say while Funimation is guilty of a lot of things quite of bit of criticisms leveled at Funimation can be found in Toei as well (Making Goku more heroic, making Gohan a would be fighter like Goku and not would be Scholar, blatantly making shit up that will be contradicted later on)

Yeah TOEI are no saints by any means. The Battle of Gods arc in Super revealed Beerus did in fact tell Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta, which was originally thought to be Funimation's fault in the Battle of Gods movie. Interestingly Chris Sabat said in his interview with Geekdom that was what was in the translation, which is why they went with the line for the movie.

It’s not even that Funimation rightfully got reamed for things like “Bardock the brilliant scientist” “Android 17 and 18 refer to themselves as 100 percent mechanical until they’re not” “Being a Super Saiyan is about letting go of your emotions” blah blah blah but is it really that much worse than


Roshi hearing about a legend of the dragon balls a long time ago when he clearly had no clue what a dragon ball was when he met Bulma and Goku

All seeing Kaio telling Goku about the downfall of planet Vegeta that is directly contradicted later on

Chi Chi doesn’t realize Goku doesn’t know what marriage is at the 23rd Budokai even though the anime exclusive “wedding” episode in the RRA arc made it clear to her that he in fact doesn’t know what a wedding is (A wedding is not a food!)

Roshi very obviously didn’t become a perv until much later on (he was once able to ride Kinto Un) and Crane Hermit was corrupted by his experience fighting Piccolo Daimao but nope Goku goes to the past and Roshi is already a perv and Crane is already evil

[Yuli Ban]

But again, this just would've been a silly fantheory that it was Goku's cries that made Broly insane, a troll-worthy answer if not for how aggressively the localization team tripled down on this explanation. They also scrubbed away Broly's insane desire to fight at all costs to instead make him plainly insane. He constantly complements the senshi for their fighting spirit and prowess, suggesting he actually respects them and is really beating them to death because of an instinctive Saiyan battlelust and spontaneous acts of violence. He only becomes insane after he's defeated by Goku, who his Super Saiyan nature now drives him to focus solely on defeating.
The dub version made him into a black-hearted sadist who mocks the senshi at every turn, considers them wastes of blood, and hated Goku from the beginning. Especially in the games.

The fans played the games and read the character bios. They all had this explanation, for many odd years.

TFS didn't do anything that wasn't already there. They just burned it in with memes. But then again their whole shtick from the start was to parody the American dub of DBZ, so of course they were going to lampoon the "Goku's cries made Broly insane" thing. It's seeing their supplemental material, their continued mention of Broly as a tear-driven berserker and as someone who hated Goku because he cried rather than someone he didn't hate at all but rather explosively needed to fight that makes me wonder if they're even aware of Broly's Japanese nature.

This is an interesting take on Broly, but I don't entirely agree. He was already a blackhearted sadist in the original, blowing up the slaves' planet and laughing like a lunatic, licking blood off his face and smiling, taking obvious pleasure in torturing his opponents, repeatedly trying to kill Gohan to spite Goku, and even calling himself a demon.

People on this site have a tendancy to blame every little misconception on Funimation's dub, even when it's completely unfounded.

I never said he wasn''t evil; just that FUNimation turned him into even more of a sadist, presumably to make him more appealing to Western audiences.
As others mentioned, when it comes to many narrative incongruencies in Dragon Ball, they usually come back to Toei. FUNimation and Ocean's greatest sins were localization issues that changed a few things for little to no reason (is there any reason Freeza needs an "i" other than trademark purposes?), often comical voice acting choices (in some cases the only reason why I think the voices fit is because I grew up with them, not because they actually sound fitting), and especially in Ocean's case, the lackadaisical attempt at translation in general and just making shit up. That's what people don't like, especially considering Dragon Ball had finished its run and was already a major phenomenon elsewhere so it wasn't like the lads and ladettes at Saban were unaware of Bardock when they penned that "brilliant scientist" line; it's not like they were simuldubbing Dragon Ball Z as it aired. It's a bit different than what was mentioned before. A lot of those things were retcons because of the anime making up something that Toriyama later went against. They had no excuse!

As for Broly...


In the original, his aggressiveness stems from his Saiyan nature. He's the legendary Super Saiyan precisely because of his uncontrollable Saiyan lust for battle and destruction is otherworldly. Hence why it's the Legendary Super Saiyan. He basically fights on instinct, with all his Saiyan traits brought to the forefront and multiplied. The Legendary Super Saiyan is a form of extreme lust for battle, and his ki reacted explosively to Goku's which caused him to cast off his father's control and finally be a literal "super" Saiyan.
This made him a malevolent berserker, but as mentioned, he still did respect those who fought back because, again, he's the ultimate warrior. The thing about warriors is that they prefer war, not just slaughter. It's the thrill of combat that gets to him. This is where the FUNi dub screwed up by turning him from a savage warrior completely unleashed and unbound into a psychotic freak who lusts only for destruction.

I never even said that this was necessarily a worse change considering this puts Broly squarely in the realm of Warhammer Orks, Taoist demons, and zombies who crave only causeless destruction and ruination. Personally, I prefer that. Just that this minor change does cause some incongruencies.

I do want to know, however, whether or not Japanese viewers actually thought Broly was left vengeful by Goku's crying. I know we have a couple Japanese users here, so I'd love it if they chimed in. If so, then the issue does stem from the movie's visual narrative muddying things, but if not, then it'd definitely have to be the games causing problems.

[MasenkoHA]

That's what people don't like, especially considering Dragon Ball had finished its run and was already a major phenomenon elsewhere so it wasn't like the lads and ladettes at Saban were unaware of Bardock when they penned that "brilliant scientist" line

To be fair it’s entirely possible the localization team didn’t know about Bardock when they wrote the “Brilliant Scientist line”. They didn’t get to the special until 2000 so it might not have been licensed to them in 96. They still probably shouldn’t have made stuff up but still. I remember reading in DBZ Uncensored 2 I think that Toei held off on licensing most of the movies to Funimation for a while not entirely sure on the truth of that.

A lot of those things were retcons because of the anime making up something that Toriyama later went against. They had no excuse!

I agree making stuff up when the series you’re dubbing is already finished is a bit different than making stuff up when your adaptation is running almost cocurrent to the source material but Toei still tended to pull things they probably shouldn’t have. Funimation’s overall lack of professionalism (lets fire our entire Canadian cast to save money by hiring local amateurs! Lets skip most of the first series to get to the more desirable second series!) is a way bigger sin then anything.

I do want to know, however, whether or not Japanese viewers actually thought Broly was left vengeful by Goku's crying. I know we have a couple Japanese users here, so I'd love it if they chimed in. If so, then the issue does stem from the movie's visual narrative muddying things, but if not, then it'd definitely have to be the games causing problems.

I’m going off memory so I could be wrong but I swear to God I remember reading the whole “Broli hated Goku forcrying next to him” explanation online circa 2001 a good two years before Funimation got to the movie.

[Yuli Ban]

That's what people don't like, especially considering Dragon Ball had finished its run and was already a major phenomenon elsewhere so it wasn't like the lads and ladettes at Saban were unaware of Bardock when they penned that "brilliant scientist" line

To be fair it’s entirely possible the localization team didn’t know about Bardock when they wrote the “Brilliant Scientist line”. They didn’t get to the special until 2000 so it might not have been licensed to them in 96. They still probably shouldn’t have made stuff up but still. I remember reading in DBZ Uncensored 2 I think that Toei held off on licensing most of the movies to Funimation for a while not entirely sure on the truth of that.

Just to clarify I'm not directing attention at that line in particular. It's just the most egregious.

For example: Saban had licensed out Dragon Ball and consciously chose not to adapt the rest of it, so Goku becoming an Oozaru was no surprise. The hell was the "Vegeta Killed Grandpa Gohan" line but a really stinky attempt at a plot twist?

But again, a lot of the other stuff was Toei and their weird adaptation methods.

[nhienphan2808]

Every addiction and retcon penned by Toriyama himself since 2013 while not perfect, is leagues better than every Toei and fan fillers since 1989. This includes Broly, Minus vs Bardock Special, every young Vegeta and Saiyan filler scene, even RoF vs GT. This doesnt include DBS amine series of course.

[WittyUsername]

Every addiction and retcon penned by Toriyama himself since 2013 while not perfect, is leagues better than every Toei and fan fillers since 1989. This includes Broly, Minus vs Bardock Special, every young Vegeta and Saiyan filler scene, even RoF vs GT. This doesnt include DBS amine series of course.

I got to give you props, that’s definitely an unpopular opinion.

[PurestEvil]

Every addition and retcon penned by Toriyama himself since 2013 while not perfect, is leagues better than every Toei and fan fillers since 1989. This includes...Minus vs Bardock Special [...]

Care to elaborate on your preference to DB Minus?

[DBZAOTA482]

Every addiction and retcon penned by Toriyama himself since 2013 while not perfect, is leagues better than every Toei and fan fillers since 1989. This includes Broly, Minus vs Bardock Special, every young Vegeta and Saiyan filler scene, even RoF vs GT. This doesnt include DBS amine series of course.

You are a brave one.

[Hulk10]

I'm all for Saiyans keeping their tails if it means more Oozaru and more nudity. There are many places to go with both of those things.

Me too. And more SSJ4.

[LoganForkHands73]

I think Minus is just alright. The hatred against it has always been overblown but understandable since fans were so heavily invested in the original Bardock's story, it was always the one piece of great expanded universe lore that seemed to be 100% "canon" to Toriyama's manga. I've seen some counterclaims that Minus is secretly some masterpiece, that's equally ridiculous to me. It doesn't have a scratch on Father of Goku in terms of being a complete narrative, but it wasn't really trying to be. Like Toriyama's version of Trunks: The Story, it's just meant to be a quick, concise interpretation of Goku's origin. There are some things from Minus that I slightly prefer. I like the fact that Toriyama's Bardock is genuinely unremarkable in every way, emphasising that Goku had no genetic lottery. I love the fact that Bardock deduces Freeza's intentions with simple observation and reasoning rather than some contrived psychic plot magic. Gine was a cute addition. The worldbuilding, while subtle, also felt a bit more consistent with Toriyama's vision of Saiyan culture than what Toei's filler typically gave us. I'm not as big a fan of Bardock's milquetoast personality, or the fact that Freeza felt the need to bring up the Super Saiyan God on top of the regular Super Saiyan legend, that was nothing but a cheap plug.

That said, Father of Goku is better. Bardock being a badass doesn't necessarily invalidate Kakarot's growth, as they explain that he too had many near-death Zenkai boosts (though some of his feats, especially in the climax, take this a little too far). The special did an amazing job at emphasising the Saiyans' toxic culture, which Minus definitely glosses over in order to Superman-ify the narrative. Bardock's entertaining brand of dickery was unfortunately never repeated after this, even in games and other spin-offs. Although the means by which Bardock gained his visions of the future was weaksauce, his doomed attempts to warn the other Saiyans (MistareFusion aptly compared to the myth of Cassandra IIRC) of their impending deaths were a great source of tragedy.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Tenshinhan is just as much of a loser as Yamcha is.

Tenshinhan won a martial arts tournament and placed in the semi finals in the next one. Compare to Yamcha who never once placed above the quarterfinals. He also didn’t die to a henchman’s kamikaze attack. So this claim is just factually false.

Counterpoint: People who peaked in high school/college are every bit the loser people who never achieved anything are

[MasenkoHA]

I think Minus is just alright. The hatred against it has always been overblown but understandable since fans were so heavily invested in the original Bardock's story, it was always the one piece of great expanded universe lore that seemed to be 100% "canon" to Toriyama's manga

I think that's the main thing. Even the most militant "if it wasn't in the original manga it's not canon and doesn't count" crowd accepted Bardock as canon because for the longest time nothing contradicted it and Toriyama giving Bardock a cameo in the manga gave it some cred. So the sudden "That story isn't canon to the manga and here's what actually happened" probably felt like a betrayal to a lot of fans. Although I cannot ever stress enough until the Super Broli movie Dragon Ball Minus's backstory was completely easy to ignore. You can watch the original 86-97 anime run or read the original 84-95 manga run and treat the Bardock tv special as canon. Even Dragon Ball Kai had the events of that special as its backstory. The new Minus backstory ONLY matters when watching that one specific movie.

[PurestEvil]

Tenshinhan is just as much of a loser as Yamcha is.

Tenshinhan won a martial arts tournament and placed in the semi finals in the next one. Compare to Yamcha who never once placed above the quarterfinals. He also didn’t die to a henchman’s kamikaze attack. So this claim is just factually false.

Counterpoint: People who peaked in high school/college are every bit the loser people who never achieved anything are

Well, we are not talking about how well Yamcha and Tien's grades were.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Tenshinhan won a martial arts tournament and placed in the semi finals in the next one. Compare to Yamcha who never once placed above the quarterfinals. He also didn’t die to a henchman’s kamikaze attack. So this claim is just factually false.

Counterpoint: People who peaked in high school/college are every bit the loser people who never achieved anything are

Well, we are not talking about how well Yamcha and Tien's grades were.

Of course not. If we were there'd be nothing to distinguish them!

More seriously, Yamcha and Tenshinhan contribute about the same in teamfights. Tenshinhan may be the better martial artist but he's still cannon fodder. You don't rank cannon fodder.

[ABED]

Sure but cannon fodder who helped at strategic times unlike Yamcha. Without Tenshinhan, Goku doesn't survive his battle against Piccolo Daimao nor Majin Buu.

[PurestEvil]

Tenshinhan may be the better martial artist but he's still cannon fodder. You don't rank cannon fodder.

Uh, you just did.
Sure, Tenshinhan may have been relegated to cannon fodder, but it does not take away the fact that Tenshinhan has an overall better track record than Yamcha. Trying to deconstruct these characters' actions with categories such as "losers" is elitist, erroneous, and toxic anyways.

[MasenkoHA]

More seriously, Yamcha and Tenshinhan contribute about the same in teamfights. Tenshinhan may be the better martial artist but he's still cannon fodder. You don't rank cannon fodder.

We can and we do.

Tenshinhan indisputably has a much better track record than Yamucha. Including getting a brief drop on both Cell and Boo. The last major thing Yamucha accomplished was getting the world’s worst handjob from Dr.Gero


I mean, Vegeta gets his ass kicked constantly to show how powerful the villains are and make Goku look better from The Ginyu Force to Freeza to Cyborg 18 to Cell to Fat Boo and nobody in the right mind is going to say he’s on Yamucha’s level.


I hope anyways.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Trying to deconstruct these characters' actions with categories such as "losers" is elitist, erroneous, and toxic anyways.

I dunno, Dragon Ball got a lot of mileage out calling Yamcha a loser. So did DBS even if the jokes didn't land as well.

We can and we do.

Tenshinhan indisputably has a much better track record than Yamucha. Including getting a brief drop on both Cell and Boo. The last major thing Yamucha accomplished was getting the world’s worst handjob from Dr.Gero

A journeyman is a journeyman. (And calling the humans in Dragon Ball journeymen is itself on the generous side.) The most that can be said for Tenshinhan is that he had promise. Promise that gets wasted by his very next arc. After the 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan is no more a threat than Yamcha or Yajirobe.

Speaking of which, Yajirobe cut off Vegeta's tail and carried Goku to Karin's tower! Feats which did way more to save the day then Tenshinhan's Kihoko spam. All Tenshinhan managed was to delay the inevitable. Yajirobe outright saved Goku's life and permanentyl handicapped Vegeta. Does that make Yajirobe less of a loser than Tenshinhan? No. Obviously. Sometimes, for the sake of subverting expectations and doing something dramatic, the plot will throw the humans a bone, allowing them to change the tide of battle.

I mean, Vegeta gets his ass kicked constantly to show how powerful the villains are and make Goku look better from The Ginyu Force to Freeza to Cyborg 18 to Cell to Fat Boo and nobody in the right mind is going to say he’s on Yamucha’s level.

I hope anyways.

My memory may be failing me here but I'm pretty sure that's exactly the complaint Vegeta fans have about his track record.

I don't think Vegeta is comparable to the humans. He's (almost) always presented as a credible threat to the villains. It usually isn't until his own ego gets in the way that Vegeta ends up making the situation so bad that his own power isn't enough. The humans never have that oppurtunity because they're never at any point more than cannon fodder.

[PurestEvil]

Trying to deconstruct these characters' actions with categories such as "losers" is elitist, erroneous, and toxic anyways.

I dunno, Dragon Ball got a lot of mileage out calling Yamcha a loser. So did DBS even if the jokes didn't land as well.

Yamcha is the exception, since his purpose involved him being a loser. Tenshinhan (and the other warriors) did not have such inherent purpose.

I don't remember any significant moments where Yamcha was called a loser, but him being beaten all the time was kind of his main purpose since he was introduced. He was used mostly to show how strong a fighter (who was significant to the arc and/or would fight Goku) was, with the basis of "this opponent can defeat this competent martial artist". Tenshinhan, on the other hand, did not share this purpose, since he had personal conflicts and character growth (that were much more significant than Yamcha's), as well as a brief rivalry with Goku (his first rival, you can say). After Piccolo became Goku's new rival, Tenshinhan lost that purpose, and was sadly killed off in the fight against Nappa. It was after that point and during the Androids saga did Tenshinhan become relegated to "cannon fodder".

I shall elaborate on what I said before. Focusing on the fact that some of the characters are "cannon fodder" without considering their other qualities is erroneous because it detracts the dramatic elements from the story. After all, why should anyone feel sad for Yamcha's death, he was expected to lose! This sort of mentality has bred some toxic views on characters like Yamcha and Krillin (they started as inside jokes and memes but eventually became full-fledged beliefs). Only a minority of fans actually subscribe to this, but they can be quite vocal.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I shall elaborate on what I said before. Focusing on the fact that some of the characters are "cannon fodder" without considering their other qualities is erroneous because it detracts the dramatic elements from the story. After all, why should anyone feel sad for Yamcha's death, he was expected to lose! This sort of mentality has bred some toxic views on characters like Yamcha and Krillin (they started as inside jokes and memes but eventually became full-fledged beliefs). Only a minority of fans actually subscribe to this, but they can be quite vocal.

I'm not trying to be rude or thick here but I'm not sure what's wrong with the fanbase picking up on what the story is already doing. The audience didn't invent "Krillin is weak" or "Yamcha is a cuck." The story did. Why should the audience feel sad when Yamcha gets a fist put through his chest? The scene isn't set up to be sad. Yamcha is basically the dumb teenager at the start of a horror movie. We see how dangerous the monster/villain is and we get to smirk at the idiot who wandered into its lair.

When we're supposed to feel sad for these characters there's usually some kind of setup. For example, Krillin's two deaths. In both it comes immediately following scenes of tremendous highs and in both it isn't really Krillin we feel for. It's Goku's pain that ends up reaching the audience. In every other instance of misfortune for Krillin (and Yamcha) we're either supposed to laugh or be worried about what this might mean for Goku. These characters, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Krillin don't have qualities besides the bare minimum needed to tell them apart. So... yeah. Cannon fodder is their defining characteristic and there's nothing wrong with seeing them that way.

EDIT: Maybe I'm coming off as a hater. Let me just say that I love the humans. Even Chiaotzu. I think his skillset had the most promise when he was introduced! But the story is what it is. I don't see the value in pretending these characters matter. They're so disposable their personalities don't even stay all that consistent.