Unpopular DB opinions

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Demon Prince Piccolo
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:57 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:01 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:08 pm By this logic, it's just as ridiculous that a lot of the non-deity fighters from other universes in Super (which is, well, just about all of them) are much more powerful than Boo.
No, I mentioned earlier that fighters coming from other universes being stronger than Boo makes sense. Because they come from alternate dimensions, there's no telling how powerful any one person may or may not be.
Again, holes in the logic here. The Universe 7 fighters are also an alternate dimension to the others. So why is it somehow less plausible for Rildo to be stronger than Boo when you have a Pooh Bear above that level for another universe? There's nothing saying a being like Rildo can't be stronger than Boo; Dragon Ball doesn't operate from that level of logic in the first place and never has. There's no other "reason" given for fighters from other universes being at that level, and no it's not just because they're from another universe.

You still haven't provided any reasons why Rildo can't be stronger than Boo. There was nothing in the main story suggesting that no type of being, even mechanical, could never be even stronger. And Dragon Ball has always leveled up its good guys/bad guys based on how strong the other is written to be. If Botamo was in Rildo's place in GT, you'd find it just as ridiculous that he was stronger than Boo. And Androids/Majins/aliens etc are written to be stronger than the last because that's what the writers decided, not because it's ever been "logical."
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:27 pm

I personally feel like Rild and Boo are very similar on the aspect of adding things to their strength. Though Boo is several millions of years older, the strongest mutant machines are basically functioning like No.17 and No.18 did for Freeza.

Baby on his own is that I find less believable, but he seems to function like Venom from Spiderman.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:42 pm

Baby's a parasite who takes his strength from those he's laid his eggs in. He's not a symbiote. Given he takes his massive strength from others, how does that make him LESS believable. For me, it's more believable that someone that strong went unnoticed until that point in the story. He was still building his stength.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:06 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:57 pm Again, holes in the logic here. The Universe 7 fighters are also an alternate dimension to the others. So why is it somehow less plausible for Rildo to be stronger than Boo when you have a Pooh Bear above that level for another universe? There's nothing saying a being like Rildo can't be stronger than Boo; Dragon Ball doesn't operate from that level of logic in the first place and never has. There's no other "reason" given for fighters from other universes being at that level, and no it's not just because they're from another universe.

You still haven't provided any reasons why Rildo can't be stronger than Boo. There was nothing in the main story suggesting that no type of being, even mechanical, could never be even stronger. And Dragon Ball has always leveled up its good guys/bad guys based on how strong the other is written to be. If Botamo was in Rildo's place in GT, you'd find it just as ridiculous that he was stronger than Boo. And Androids/Majins/aliens etc are written to be stronger than the last because that's what the writers decided, not because it's ever been "logical."
When you have alternate realities and parallel worlds, the rules governing each dimension potentially shift. Things that were impossible on one world become possible on the next. So logically, the levels of strength and power capacity of beings from one universe might be radically different from those from another universe. That's why someone like Rildo could never believably measure up to Majin Boo, but some robot from another universe might.

Dragon Ball has always operated under logical reasoning. Mostly simplistic reasoning and nothing especially technical, but logical nonetheless.

I already explained why Rildo can't be stronger than Boo earlier in the thread.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:21 pm

All this Rild talk has me wanting to write a Rild fan fix. It's so weird how a bland character can be juuuuust charming enough to inspire ideas. 😆
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:26 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:06 pm When you have alternate realities and parallel worlds, the rules governing each dimension potentially shift. Things that were impossible on one world become possible on the next. So logically, the levels of strength and power capacity of beings from one universe might be radically different from those from another universe. That's why someone like Rildo could never believably measure up to Majin Boo, but some robot from another universe might.

Dragon Ball has always operated under logical reasoning. Mostly simplistic reasoning and nothing especially technical, but logical nonetheless.

I already explained why Rildo can't be stronger than Boo earlier in the thread.
You've said why you don't like Rildo being stronger (which is fine), but I haven't seen any reason that actually stacks up as to why he can't be. Him just being "some guy" doesn't mean he can't be stronger than Boo.

Dragon Ball's "logic" is that the rules are made up the farther we get into the series. Any "rules" only become apparent as more elements are introduced, but even then they're malleable. I've also seen people say it's ridiculous for a genie (Boo) to be stronger than Freeza in the past. It would be different if Dragon Ball was a series where all of the elements and types of beings were made apparent at the very beginning. But Toriyama isn't that type of writer, and Dragon Ball has never been that type of series. It's not like a Brandon Sanderson novel where he has clear rules to his magic system laid out.

Dragon Ball uses fantasy, sci-fi, and spiritual elements to make a world where any type of being with any type of power is possible just because. Rildo can be stronger than Boo just because he is. The fighters from other universes in Super aren't just stronger because they're from alternate universes. They're stronger so that the writers can have them contend with Universe 7, or to make Universe 7 level up to match them. Just like Rildo is only stronger to show that Goku is stronger than in Z.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:14 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:26 pm Rildo can be stronger than Boo just because he is.
Yes, Rildo *can* be stronger than Boo. It's just that it's in no way believable is what I'm saying. And that's why GT is a departure from the rest of the story, because they throw away logic and reasoning and do things "just because". That wasn't the case before or after.

When you consider that it was Toei mostly behind GT, it actually makes sense. Just look at the Z-movies and filler episodes, which is normally where characters are stronger and things happen "just because". They just took that kind of storytelling and turned it into an entire show.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:49 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:14 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:26 pm Rildo can be stronger than Boo just because he is.
Yes, Rildo *can* be stronger than Boo. It's just that it's in no way believable is what I'm saying. And that's why GT is a departure from the rest of the story, because they throw away logic and reasoning and do things "just because". That wasn't the case before or after.

When you consider that it was Toei mostly behind GT, it actually makes sense. Just look at the Z-movies and filler episodes, which is normally where characters are stronger and things happen "just because". They just took that kind of storytelling and turned it into an entire show.
And Toei got that type of storytelling more or less from Toriyama. Again, Dragon Ball has never been the type of logical you're trying to make it seem like it's been, whether you're talking filler, the movies, or the main original series (OG+Z/the manga); it's always been malleable, not rigid, even within the original manga. I still don't see what's less "believable" about Rildo being stronger than Boo or what makes that so much more ridiculous than anything else, and I doubt I'm going to at this point, so I'll just leave it at that.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Xeogran » Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:55 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:14 am Yes, Rildo *can* be stronger than Boo. It's just that it's in no way believable is what I'm saying. And that's why GT is a departure from the rest of the story, because they throw away logic and reasoning and do things "just because". That wasn't the case before or after.
I respectfully disagree.

Androids are stronger than Frieza "just because", so you're wrong here.
Jiren is stronger than Hit (and almost everyone else) just because, too.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:40 am

ABED wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:42 pm Baby's a parasite who takes his strength from those he's laid his eggs in. He's not a symbiote. Given he takes his massive strength from others, how does that make him LESS believable. For me, it's more believable that someone that strong went unnoticed until that point in the story. He was still building his stength.
It’s because that’s a similar idea that was used with Cell and Boo, but Baby started much weaker, as he couldn’t even take over a weaker Super Saiyan Trunks. Boo would have no problem with that.

Baby’s perfect form though absorbed ki from several people, so I think this is more justified. Tsufurians probably had better input in his creation and worked on his compatibility with Saiyans, as it worked as some sort of fusion. That’s why I remembered of Venom-like creatures, who were very weak on their own but became much stronger when they have a host, I’m not arguing the technicalities of what exactly they are.

Personally, I don’t find it a very strong method, Rild’s assimilation of an entire planet of machine components seems much more impressive for me.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:47 am

It's not the same thing. Buu starts off strong. Baby takes people's power to get stronger but unlike Cell or Buu, he doesn't merely absorb them, he turns them into his slaves without free will.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:56 am

Xeogran wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:55 am
MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:14 am Yes, Rildo *can* be stronger than Boo. It's just that it's in no way believable is what I'm saying. And that's why GT is a departure from the rest of the story, because they throw away logic and reasoning and do things "just because". That wasn't the case before or after.
I respectfully disagree.

Androids are stronger than Frieza "just because", so you're wrong here.
Jiren is stronger than Hit (and almost everyone else) just because, too.

It’s funny because when Toriyama changed his mind about 19 and 20 being the big bads he had a built in reason for why they weren’t up to snuff ‘Gero didn’t record any battles after the Saiyan conflict’ but that came at the cost at 17 and 18 being so much stronger than Freeza and 3 years of preparation training Super Saiyan Vegeta because uh reasons.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:59 am

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:47 am It's not the same thing. Buu starts off strong. Baby takes people's power to get stronger but unlike Cell or Buu, he doesn't merely absorb them, he turns them into his slaves without free will.
By same idea, I mean Baby takes power from others, as Cell or Boo, particularly organic beings, which separate them from Rild, who takes power from machines.

Baby went very far on taking power from other people, specially Saiyans, that’s why I think you could justify his strength. But when you compare it with Rild’s method, it doesn’t sound that believable for me. It just reinforces how Saiyans’ power were ridiculously overrated in Dragon Ball GT, despite they living 15 years of peace.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:05 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:59 am , despite they living 15 years of peace.
It’s been established over and over the Saiyans don’t stop training just because peace so this doesn’t mean anything.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:15 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:05 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:59 am , despite they living 15 years of peace.
It’s been established over and over the Saiyans don’t stop training just because peace so this doesn’t mean anything.
It has been established where? Have you been keeping up with Gohan’s characterization so far?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:23 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:15 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:05 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:59 am , despite they living 15 years of peace.
It’s been established over and over the Saiyans don’t stop training just because peace so this doesn’t mean anything.
It has been established where? Have you been keeping up with Gohan’s characterization so far?
At the beginning of Z when Roshi comments how Goku has gotten stronger when he expected him to have gotten weaker since being domesticated by Chi Chi

In the Boo saga where Vegeta is spending all his time training and mocks Gohan for not doing the same.


Like I’m not even sure how you can miss any of this when the story beats over your head how obsessive Goku and Vegeta are.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:30 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:23 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:15 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:05 am It’s been established over and over the Saiyans don’t stop training just because peace so this doesn’t mean anything.
It has been established where? Have you been keeping up with Gohan’s characterization so far?
At the beginning of Z when Roshi comments how Goku has gotten stronger when he expected him to have gotten weaker since being domesticated by Chi Chi

In the Boo saga where Vegeta is spending all his time training and mocks Gohan for not doing the same.

Like I’m not even sure how you can miss any of this when the story beats over your head how obsessive Goku and Vegeta are.
I’m not talking solely about Goku and Vegeta, but Saiyans in general. Goku and Vegeta are exceptions, as they keep training hard at those times. It’s just not too rare to see them scolding Gohan, Goten and Trunks for not doing the same.

Though, I would argue Vegeta seemed quite unresigned to let Goku take an edge over him in DBGT. He has an entire episode dedicated to that. So, I wouldn’t say he was as motivated as he was during DBZ. Goku was motivated by his rematch against Oob.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:31 am

Even if they don't train, they are still powerful, and the more of them he takes over, the stronger he gets and thus the easier it is to keep a hold over the stronger Saiyans who do train (e.g. Vegeta)
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:39 pm

DB is all about "just because". And just because Buu is some ancient evil blah blah doesn't mean there can't be anyone stronger than him.
And as it was already said, androids in Z were also stronger than Frieza "just because".

And i don't see how someone being from other universe makes his power justified. Jiren is still just a guy who trained hard, no matter which universe he came from. He should be weaker than Buu by this logic as well cause he isn't thousands years old magic being.

Also let's not ignore a fact we just got new Broly in Super, from the same universe as Buu, being much stronger than Buu, without doing anything. And him being a saiyan doesn't help him, it's completely opposite actually. Rildo was unknown yet race, so we didn't have any idea how strong his race can become. Broly came from already established race that we know a lot about and have pretty good idea about how strong can they be and how much effort they need to put to achieve that. Seeing how much experience and training Goku and Vegeta had, it shouldn't be possible for another saiyan to be stronger than Buu "just because" something. But hey, he is.

Also Frieza despite being well known galactic emperor, shouldn't be stronger than Buu either. And he wasn't. Until he trained for entire 4 months which apparently has more meaning than being an ancient demon.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dragonmagico » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:37 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:39 pm DB is all about "just because". And just because Buu is some ancient evil blah blah doesn't mean there can't be anyone stronger than him.
And as it was already said, androids in Z were also stronger than Frieza "just because".

And i don't see how someone being from other universe makes his power justified. Jiren is still just a guy who trained hard, no matter which universe he came from. He should be weaker than Buu by this logic as well cause he isn't thousands years old magic being.

Also let's not ignore a fact we just got new Broly in Super, from the same universe as Buu, being much stronger than Buu, without doing anything. And him being a saiyan doesn't help him, it's completely opposite actually. Rildo was unknown yet race, so we didn't have any idea how strong his race can become. Broly came from already established race that we know a lot about and have pretty good idea about how strong can they be and how much effort they need to put to achieve that. Seeing how much experience and training Goku and Vegeta had, it shouldn't be possible for another saiyan to be stronger than Buu "just because" something. But hey, he is.

Also Frieza despite being well known galactic emperor, shouldn't be stronger than Buu either. And he wasn't. Until he trained for entire 4 months which apparently has more meaning than being an ancient demon.
Heck even in super(honestly probably also buu saga/end of z) base goku and vegeta were stronger than freeza was on namek. So even if back when freeza was the main baddie the only thing that could have beaten him was super Saiyan/super namek just training still allowed goku and vegeta at base to be stronger than freeza. Why would it be weird if other races had the same thing happen to them? ie without freeza around to put down anything he could eventually challenge him other races grew to surpass him. Why is it only other universes that get to have mortals train and become buu level without anything to stop them, but universe 7 and GT dont get that?

Heck gohan could have surpassed buu with just traning, since the elder kai doesnt make him do anything he didnt have the potential to do. If he could do it naturally, why not others?

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