Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:28 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:50 am You keep using terms like "common sense" and it's silly. None of this is "common sense". How is it common sense that a lone mad scientist is able to create a machine stronger than a Super Saiyan who he didn't even know existed? In the end, the logic is simply "because that's how Toriyama wrote it that way."
Maybe "common knowledge" is a better term. The point is that as soon as Trunks tells Goku that the new enemy is androids/cyborgs, it should immediately click in the audience's minds as to how anyone could surpass Freeza. Everyone knows that robots and artificial beings born in labs are potentially stronger than living creatures. Not only is it simple logic, it's also very common in science fiction and fantasy. Whenever someone is unusually stronger than someone else, the answer is frequently "robot". That's the basic explanation that Toriyama provides and really all the audience needs.

But Toriyama doesn't even stop there. He goes on to further justify the explanation by describing just how Gero designed the androids via his research on Goku. That just adds even *more* believability to the logic.

ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:50 am What is the explanation for Buu's incredible strength?
Magic. It's as simple as that. Obviously, with magic, anything is possible. Majin Boo was created purely from black magic. So his power is equally limitless.

Honestly, after a villain like Freeza, there were really only a small number of believable explanations remaining. Science and then magic is more or less it, and Toriyama did both.

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:35 pm I read superhero comics from time to time and have read about alternate universes and realities. No, it is not always or even usually a component that the rules work differently or that the alternate universe is naturally stronger. And if it was, the writers would state so because they would want the reader to know this, not merely assume it. More often than not, the rules work exactly the same in the alternate universe.
ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:50 am They work however a writer wants them to work.
As ABED said, the rules of an alternate universe work however the writer wants them to work. You mention parallel worlds in superhero comics, and that's certainly true, but that's only *one* possible direction to take in multiverse fiction. There are many others. The point is that all the audience needs to hear is "another universe", and they instantly get that things are likely to be very different with this reality, and to throw out the rulebook. Like you said, Toriyama's not that technical. He doesn't *have* to state every detail explicitly for the reader.

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:18 am
MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:49 pm Plus, you never know what kind of secrets the King may have been hiding. It could be a good rtunity for some juicy reveals.
Prince Vegeta also seems confident in anything he discloses about Saiyan culture and politics so I doubt there's anything substantial that his father can teach him, especially considering that King Vegeta died believing that Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God were just myths.
He's only confident in what he was told. King Vegeta may have just been lying his ass off, who knows. I don't think having a few secrets is out of the realm of possibility.

But when I say "juicy reveals", I really mean more to do with the King's personal life. Secrets about the family or Vegeta's childhood or something like that.

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:18 am The Tsufurians had the reputation of being highly technologically advanced, so much so that they were able to give the saiyans some trouble. So if the saiyans can become strong enough to beat Boo, why can't the Tsufurians do the same with their tech?
This is a good point, I hadn't considered that. Hmm...

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:19 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:28 pm
ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:50 am They work however a writer wants them to work.
As ABED said, the rules of an alternate universe work however the writer wants them to work. You mention parallel worlds in superhero comics, and that's certainly true, but that's only *one* possible direction to take in multiverse fiction. There are many others. The point is that all the audience needs to hear is "another universe", and they instantly get that things are likely to be very different with this reality, and to throw out the rulebook. Like you said, Toriyama's not that technical. He doesn't *have* to state every detail explicitly for the reader.
Again, this is your conjecture. Dragon Ball is not that deep. If being from another universe meant that the rules were all different, it would have been stated in Super. The writers in Super have done nothing to indicate that being from another universe means that all bets are off, when compared to Universe 7. And now you've just admitted that you hadn't considered what the Tsufurians are capable of technologically in your assessment of Rildo, so what is the hang up? Technology and magic function more or less the same in Dragon Ball, it's just a matter of which explanation the writer chooses to go with.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:21 pm

But Toriyama doesn't even stop there. He goes on to further justify the explanation by describing just how Gero designed the androids via his research on Goku. That just adds even *more* believability to the logic.
But also drops the bit of knowledge that Dr. Gero's calculations were incomplete but regardless, none of what you said is correct in the slightest. It's a very common trope that when science comes up against mysticism, tech get its ass kicked. In DB, ki is the root of the characters power and it is mystical in nature.

Other dimensions in fiction are very different, so much so that the writers have to demonstrate what has changed.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:34 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:19 pm And now you've just admitted that you hadn't considered what the Tsufurians are capable of technologically in your assessment of Rildo, so what is the hang up?
I admit that when you consider the Tsufuru scientific genius as the equivalent of Saiyan fighting ability, then it becomes somewhat more plausible that Rildo could have been that powerful. But it still seems like a bit of a stretch. Especially when the audience doesn't even know about the Tsufuru factor until Baby reveals it episodes later. I kind of doubt that the writers even intended for it to be an explanation in the first place.

ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:21 pm
But Toriyama doesn't even stop there. He goes on to further justify the explanation by describing just how Gero designed the androids via his research on Goku. That just adds even *more* believability to the logic.
But also drops the bit of knowledge that Dr. Gero's calculations were incomplete but regardless, none of what you said is correct in the slightest. It's a very common trope that when science comes up against mysticism, tech get its ass kicked. In DB, ki is the root of the characters power and it is mystical in nature.
And tech gets its ass kicked in DBZ. Yes, Goku and the others ultimately come out on top, but not before Gero gives them a real challenge with his creations. The point is that using science, Gero was able to create enemies that surpassed Freeza and challenged the Super Saiyans. Gero's miscalculations only contributed to adding to the drama, but didn't mean much as he was still able to create superior beings with 17 and 18.

The root of the characters' powers isn't mysticism. While Ki is a vital component of their power and fighting abilities, it's not the basis of everything. Hard work and training, hand to hand, physical and mental capabilities, biology - these are what make the characters what they are. Gero was able to not only replicate and surpass all of those things, he was also able to mimic Ki itself.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:58 pm

The root is absolutely rooted in mysticism. They use training to increase their ki and sharpen their ability to use it. Their ability to fly is entirely based on ki control. This isn't a controversial point. You are flat out incorrect. You have some of the most utterly arbitrary opinions I've seen here that you consider "common sense" and "logical". Opinions are great but they're opinions. We all have lines of what we consider to make sense, but they are personal.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:35 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:58 pm The root is absolutely rooted in mysticism. They use training to increase their ki and sharpen their ability to use it. Their ability to fly is entirely based on ki control.
It's the other way around, they use Ki to increase their training and sharpen their ability of combat. Mysticism and Ki are not the root, the root is the hard work, biology, etc. Ki doesn't fully develop until later on. Then they can fly and so forth. Those are all fancy techniques, but it's not the foundation of their power.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:41 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:35 pm
ABED wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:58 pm The root is absolutely rooted in mysticism. They use training to increase their ki and sharpen their ability to use it. Their ability to fly is entirely based on ki control.
It's the other way around, they use Ki to increase their training and sharpen their ability of combat. Mysticism and Ki are not the root, the root is the hard work, biology, etc. Ki doesn't fully develop until later on. Then they can fly and so forth. Those are all fancy techniques, but it's not the foundation of their power.
Wait...what? The foundation of their power is absolutely ki. And it's at the start of the series. That's not even an opinion, it's a fact. Where are you getting this from?
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:04 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:41 pm Wait...what? The foundation of their power is absolutely ki. And it's at the start of the series. That's not even an opinion, it's a fact. Where are you getting this from?
Sorry, I meant the foundation of the *characters'* power. Not the foundation of the techniques power.

The techniques are Ki-based of course, but mostly didn't arrive until after Ki mastery was perfected. Which was around the time of the 23rd Budoukai. Prior to that, it was the hard work and biology that was the basis of the characters power. Which eventually gave rise to Ki control.

To be fair though, Ki itself was probably always a component of their power, since the start of the series. Albeit in its most simplest form. It's probably better described as an interdependent relationship, where physical/mental combat and training served Ki development while Ki development served physical combat, simultaneously.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:28 am

Yes, ki control was always a component of the series and of the character's training. It became acknowledged further in the King Piccolo arc and as the characters' power grew, but it was always at the heart of their fighting prowess and techniques. We're introduced to the Kamehameha in the Hunt for Dragon Balls arc, so even in the arc that has the least in common with the rest of the series, it was there. Ki is at the heart of martial arts in general, the fancy techniques are just there to showcase the level of control one has over it. But even without the fancy techniques, it's there in their training; it's especially evident with characters like Nam during the 21st.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ironixie » Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:48 am

I don't know, I have a few opinions that aren't of the majority but I don't know if it's actually unpopular. Though, I'll stop pretending this isn't almost a decade old and just get on to the point.

Yamcha is my favorite human, it's not that I think he's the best written or anything, he just entertains me the most, it's the same reason I like dragon ball, z, and super. It's my favorite because it's just the most fun.

Not a big fan of Vegeta, surprise surprise... I bet you've heard this one a thousand times, but either way, it's an opinion that's lesser than average. Vegeta has gotten better over the years and I enjoy him more than I used to, but I don't like him simply because I just don't enjoy arrogant/cocky characters.

It's the same reason I like Vegito less than Gogeta, which is another opinion that's not of the majority. Vegito is too cocky, but it's not like I love Gogeta, the main reason I like him more is because he isn't Vegito, though sometimes I am fairly intrigued by Gogeta the reason why is because I like characters who just show you how badass they are without rubbing it in. This is why Android 17 became high on my list for favorite characters super fast, he just got the job done and didn't make any big deal about it.

Let's see, what else... I don't think ssj3 & ssj4 are the best forms, I used to think it looked super ugly, though now I sometimes think it looks cool, both of them, though looking cool can only get you so far with me, as we know... Dragon ball heroes exists, there's a ton of stuff that looks cool in there, doesn't make it good though. Needs narrative back up, it needs to mean something IMO, quite possibly, if there was an arc about Goten and Trunks exclusively, developing character and then obtaining the form at the climax and ending section of the arc, then I think it can establish it in a better position.

As for Super Saiyan 4, I think the universe 6 Saiyans should obtain it because them getting the god form just puts me in a sour mood, and I kinda like the idea of them rediscovering their lost primal power.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:00 am

Ironixie wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:48 am Yamcha is my favorite human, it's not that I think he's the best written or anything, he just entertains me the most, it's the same reason I like dragon ball, z, and super. It's my favorite because it's just the most fun.

Not a big fan of Vegeta, surprise surprise... I bet you've heard this one a thousand times, but either way, it's an opinion that's lesser than average. Vegeta has gotten better over the years and I enjoy him more than I used to, but I don't like him simply because I just don't enjoy arrogant/cocky characters.

It's the same reason I like Vegito less than Gogeta, which is another opinion that's not of the majority. Vegito is too cocky, but it's not like I love Gogeta, the main reason I like him more is because he isn't Vegito, though sometimes I am fairly intrigued by Gogeta the reason why is because I like characters who just show you how badass they are without rubbing it in. This is why Android 17 became high on my list for favorite characters super fast, he just got the job done and didn't make any big deal about it.
Krillin is my favorite human, but Yamcha's the man. He's just the character there to show how strong the opponent is. I've liked him pretty consistently; even when he's no longer a relevant fighter in the later Z arcs, he's cool to have around.

I'm a fan of Vegeta, but he's pretty far down on my "favorite characters" list at this point (whereas as a kid he was interchangeable with Goku as my favorite). I find him insufferable once he starts talking about Super Saiyan in the Namek arc and for most of the Android arc. I suppose that's the whole point, but he's so grating to me that sometimes I find he's unpleasant to watch; I tend to be the biggest fan of him when he's an outright villain causing trouble like in Saiyan-early Namek arcs and the Babidi arc, or when he's a full good guy like from the Boo arc onwards. I enjoyed seeing both Frieza and later Android 18 beat the living hell out of him.

To be fair to Vegetto, his cockiness was a tactic, since he wanted to be turned into candy on purpose to rescue the absorbed fighters. I do like Gogeta's more serious attitude, although he's only really like that in Movie 12 (and a bit in Super Broly as well, but not quite to the same degree).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ironixie » Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:13 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:00 am
Ironixie wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:48 am Yamcha is my favorite human, it's not that I think he's the best written or anything, he just entertains me the most, it's the same reason I like dragon ball, z, and super. It's my favorite because it's just the most fun.

Not a big fan of Vegeta, surprise surprise... I bet you've heard this one a thousand times, but either way, it's an opinion that's lesser than average. Vegeta has gotten better over the years and I enjoy him more than I used to, but I don't like him simply because I just don't enjoy arrogant/cocky characters.

It's the same reason I like Vegito less than Gogeta, which is another opinion that's not of the majority. Vegito is too cocky, but it's not like I love Gogeta, the main reason I like him more is because he isn't Vegito, though sometimes I am fairly intrigued by Gogeta the reason why is because I like characters who just show you how badass they are without rubbing it in. This is why Android 17 became high on my list for favorite characters super fast, he just got the job done and didn't make any big deal about it.
Krillin is my favorite human, but Yamcha's the man. He's just the character there to show how strong the opponent is. I've liked him pretty consistently; even when he's no longer a relevant fighter in the later Z arcs, he's cool to have around.

I'm a fan of Vegeta, but he's pretty far down on my "favorite characters" list at this point (whereas as a kid he was interchangeable with Goku as my favorite). I find him insufferable once he starts talking about Super Saiyan in the Namek arc and for most of the Android arc. I suppose that's the whole point, but he's so grating to me that sometimes I find he's unpleasant to watch; I tend to be the biggest fan of him when he's an outright villain causing trouble like in Saiyan-early Namek arcs and the Babidi arc, or when he's a full good guy like from the Boo arc onwards. I enjoyed seeing both Frieza and later Android 18 beat the living hell out of him.

To be fair to Vegetto, his cockiness was a tactic, since he wanted to be turned into candy on purpose to rescue the absorbed fighters. I do like Gogeta's more serious attitude, although he's only really like that in Movie 12 (and a bit in Super Broly as well, but not quite to the same degree).
I know but at the same time, people find Vegito's cockiness to be one of the key components of what makes him cool, it's something I hear often, though to be fair GT Gogeta was quite cocky himself. Though I didn't like GT anyway nor Gogeta. I'd have to see GT in its Japanese version as I've seen it in dub on NickToons but I digress. As for Vegeta, I think I disliked him for so long because he pissed me off in the Android saga that we all know, for all the reasons we know, letting cell get full power and such, though what mainly unnerved me back then was he was going to let Bulma and baby trunks die, that's why I think I disliked him for so long. Now, these days I've cooled off on him since he's mellowed out, now all I wonder about him is if he thinks back on killing Nappa, or destroying those planets, especially the one with the bug people in love now that he's in a relationship himself because now he understands those kinds of feelings in retrospect. To close off, I think he's important to the series now and I'd rather have him then not, though I do wonder what would've happened if Toriyama was allowed to kill him off.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:15 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:10 pm General Rildo is lame and people only remember him because Goku compare him to Buu. He is pretty much Dabra 2.0 with both characters being a powerful body guard that can turn people into solid metal/stone and had their powers compare to the previous villain (Cell & Dabra and Rildo & Buu). His metal powers that can control the planet and his second form are the only cool things that I can think of about him.
Don't understand why hate a character who is rarely remembered in the franchise, but anyway I think Rildo is kinda decent and the only think I dislike about him is that when he is introduced in videogames they only include this form when that and this one are more interesting design wise for me.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:08 pm

Noah wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:15 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:10 pm General Rildo is lame and people only remember him because Goku compare him to Buu. He is pretty much Dabra 2.0 with both characters being a powerful body guard that can turn people into solid metal/stone and had their powers compare to the previous villain (Cell & Dabra and Rildo & Buu). His metal powers that can control the planet and his second form are the only cool things that I can think of about him.
Don't understand why hate a character who is rarely remembered in the franchise, but anyway I think Rildo is kinda decent and the only think I dislike about him is that when he is introduced in videogames they only include this form when that and this one are more interesting design wise for me.
It's kinda funny they include the form he used the least in series and isn't even his base or final form, just in between.
It's like including Super Baby 1 in Xenoverse or FighterZ instead of his second form, even though that form lasted like a minute.
Or third form Frieza which isn't popular either. That's so random.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:34 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:08 pm It's kinda funny they include the form he used the least in series and isn't even his base or final form, just in between.
It's like including Super Baby 1 in Xenoverse or FighterZ instead of his second form, even though that form lasted like a minute.
Or third form Frieza which isn't popular either. That's so random.
Ironically 3rd form Frieza is my favorite of his forms just because of how much more grotesque it is than the others.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:23 am

I like the SDBH anime as a continuation of DBS’s anime, post ToP and ignoring the Broly movie.

It filled in that spot at the right time as the anime ended, and now even though the Broly movie and the manga offer the main continuation of DBS, I still like SDBH for the alternate timeline (for lack of a better term) that it is.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:37 pm

But how can Dragon Ball Heroes "ignores" Movie 1 if Vegeta already knows the Metamoru fusion?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:32 pm

Noah wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:15 pm Don't understand why hate a character who is rarely remembered in the franchise, but anyway I think Rildo is kinda decent and the only think I dislike about him is that when he is introduced in videogames they only include this form when that and this one are more interesting design wise for me.
Yeah, that form of Rilldo is almost fascinatingly bad. It looks like an awful bootleg action figure, the sort of Poundland tat reviewed by Ashens. Neither of his other designs are exactly amazing but they feel more logical to include in games and such, lol.

I don't have strong opinions on Rilldo's character but his ability to merge and morph with any metal on his planet was certainly an interesting and unique power for the series. Being compared to Majin Buu was a big deal at the time as well. However, he is very forgettable. Out of all the early GT enemies, Ledgic has to be my favourite. Shame that he never appeared again.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:22 pm

I dunno uhhhhh I don't really like Bulma's old FUNi VA. Maybe it was just the acting to me, she always seemed to have the same general tone and inflection in her voice. imo I prefer the current one
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:44 am

BeaBumby wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:22 pm I dunno uhhhhh I don't really like Bulma's old FUNi VA. Maybe it was just the acting to me, she always seemed to have the same general tone and inflection in her voice. imo I prefer the current one
I'm not sure how unpopular that is here, but it's definitely unpopular in other circles. I actually agree, though, I prefer Monica Rial's Bulma to Tiffany Volmer's. Monica did really well bringing Bulma's brainy-ness to the forefront. I also like her Ocean voice.

No disrespect to Vollmer; I think her performance had a lot to do with the direction she was given. I think she's talented.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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