Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MCDaveG » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:15 pm

Vegeta is kind of an idiot in Z after his fight with Goku… I wonder if that is maybe because Toriyama didn’t like him that much, but bear with me.

He always loses with the main villains in a classic Vegeta way “Rah, rah, I am super Vegeta and I am gonna demolish you” just to get a beating of lifetime…
After Freeza arc, he is this toxic asshole pissing everyone off.
He laughs off Trunks, beating 19 gets into his head just for his ass being handed over by 18.
With Cell, he basically goes against everyone to make Cell powerfull because of his Saiyan meatheadness, just to be beaten up and basically Goku, Gohan and Trunks overcome him in sheer power.
The Buu arc doesn’t make sense at all… he is so desperate to beat Goku, so he basically let himself to be overtaken by a villain (even tho he breaks the spell), kills bunch of people and let’s Buu out and instead of saying, damn Kakarot, I am an idiot, he incapacitates the strongest fighter there is, goes on a quest of redemption and kills himself in the process, acomplishing nothing - except for some character growth at least, thanks god.
In the anime, he has to be spanked again to consider potara.

Vegeta is basically a sucker. Maybe, he has a talent for learning transformations and power ups, but Goku is the real martial arts genius.
I kinda like Vegeta in Super more and I like him as a character in Z, he is cool, angsty, creates this mirror to Goku, but at cruciá moments in Z after Freeza arc, he is bigheaded idiot that everyone else have to save.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:22 am

DBS Super Hero is the best thing produced under DBS name so far (that includes any arc of anime/manga and Broly movie) and is much better than Broly and Ressurection 'F'. If it wasn't for short scene of Goku and Vegeta training with Broly, it could've easily be released as a DBZ movie.

Not calling it a masterpiece cause Cell Max and new forms (as well as a way they were achieved) suck, but other than that it was really good DB movie. Gammas and Hedo were cool characters and even though plot is just yet another Red Ribbon revenge story, it's really enjoyable and i like entire concept of Gammas believing they are the real heroes while Z-fighters are villains.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:35 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:22 am DBS Super Hero is the best thing produced under DBS name so far (that includes any arc of anime/manga and Broly movie) and is much better than Broly and Ressurection 'F'. If it wasn't for short scene of Goku and Vegeta training with Broly, it could've easily be released as a DBZ movie.

Not calling it a masterpiece cause Cell Max and new forms (as well as a way they were achieved) suck, but other than that it was really good DB movie. Gammas and Hedo were cool characters and even though plot is just yet another Red Ribbon revenge story, it's really enjoyable and i like entire concept of Gammas believing they are the real heroes while Z-fighters are villains.
How does any of that belong on an unpopular opinions thread?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:50 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:22 am DBS Super Hero is the best thing produced under DBS name so far (that includes any arc of anime/manga and Broly movie) and is much better than Broly and Ressurection 'F'. If it wasn't for short scene of Goku and Vegeta training with Broly, it could've easily be released as a DBZ movie.

Not calling it a masterpiece cause Cell Max and new forms (as well as a way they were achieved) suck, but other than that it was really good DB movie. Gammas and Hedo were cool characters and even though plot is just yet another Red Ribbon revenge story, it's really enjoyable and i like entire concept of Gammas believing they are the real heroes while Z-fighters are villains.
I kinda agree with this. The movie kept my attention the entire time.

Even though the plot was basically another retreat of old plot threads, it still felt fresh and original.

The only thing I didn't like was the writers keep portraying Goku as an idiot and Beerus' thirsting for Cheelai.

Glade it's doing so well here especially considering it wasn't really marketed that well. It even surpassed the first movie Pokemon as the #1 opening week for an anime film in the US proving empirically that Dragon Ball was and always will be more popular as an anime than Pokemon.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:31 pm

OmegaAlphaDelta123 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:10 am
dva_raza wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:32 am
Yeah all that, except for the last part lol. He didn't deserve anything.
Frieza was there for Goku, not Vegeta.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Vegeta deserved to beat Freeza because of some BS Funimation "Freeza tortured him as a kid" revisionism, nor does it have anything to do with how I feel about him as a character. I just think that it made better sense narratively for Vegeta to kill Frieza.

In terms of Cell and Buu, the main reason I think that Vegeta didn't deserve to kill them was because he was the main reason they became as much a threat as they were and as for Namek Freeza's beatdown of him, I just saw as an asshole getting his just desserts by an even bigger asshole. However, against Golden Freeza, Goku was the one to screw up by letting his guard down despite knowing the type of person Frieza was and paid the price while Vegeta didn't really make any mistakes on the same level. I feel neutral on Vegeta killing Golden Freeza, but it's certainly a far better ending than having Whis rewind time and make Goku's mistake against Freeza meaningless. It'd be like if someone rewound time to before Cell became Perfect just so Vegeta could kill Semi-Perfect Cell. It also started the trend of Whis acting as a Deus Ex Machina any time the Z-Fighters need something, which isn't something I enjoy.
But I did actually mean narrative wise as well.

As I mentioned, Frieza came there mostly for Goku, he barely acknowledged Vegeta.
So why would it have made more sense to have a character the villain doesn’t give that many fucks about be the one to kill him?..

Goku finishing Frieza was the closure to his own fight with him years back. And him "stealing" the win was also in tone with the movie.
It's an (unpopular opinion) but I liked Whis' time reversal. It was unexpected and kind of absurd which is when Dragon Ball becomes fun. Whereas if Vegeta had killed Frieza it might've felt overly dramatic and actually forced narratively, because;
OmegaAlphaDelta123 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:10 amGoku was the one to screw up by letting his guard down despite knowing the type of person Frieza was and paid the price while Vegeta didn't really make any mistakes on the same level.
Vegeta did the exact same thing and not just got shot but had Frieza obliterating Earth and kill everybody on it. That's a worse screw up that Goku's (and a perfect justification for what followed).

And I get that you were referring to not having that whole scene at all. But in that case the exact same thing can be argued about Goku.
Why have him lower his guard in the first place? That was only done to give Vegeta his moment of 'participation'.
They basically had both of them screw up but then Goku got to finish what he started. To me it felt coherent that way.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:49 pm

dva_raza wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:35 pm How does any of that belong on an unpopular opinions thread?
Most people tend to consider DBS Broly to be one of the best movies (if not the best) while i've found it disappointing and Super Hero is better in almost every way imo.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:24 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:49 pm
dva_raza wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:35 pm How does any of that belong on an unpopular opinions thread?
Most people tend to consider DBS Broly to be one of the best movies (if not the best) while i've found it disappointing and Super Hero is better in almost every way imo.
In every way, seriously? The fights in Broly are spectacular.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:23 am

They gave me a bit of headache, especially Gogeta against Broly.

Although I would like if they could learn how to properly to depict fights in first-person and make it a bit longer than the one seen in the movie. That was weird (still is) but really cool nonetheless. Imagine nice choreographed fights (with as much minimized shaky camera as possible) in first-person...
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Modern_Dingus » Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:06 pm

dva_raza wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:24 am
sunsetshimmer wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:49 pm
dva_raza wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:35 pm How does any of that belong on an unpopular opinions thread?
Most people tend to consider DBS Broly to be one of the best movies (if not the best) while i've found it disappointing and Super Hero is better in almost every way imo.
In every way, seriously? The fights in Broly are spectacular.
The Broly fights ARE cool, but I think they just get bogged down because of how much mid-air-clashing and over-the-top spectacle we've seen throughout the series.

I for one and am in the camp where DBS:SH fights were the best fights in Super because they felt more intimate, the grappling, the weight, it all felt more... attainable? It's like, yeah it's cool to see someone do a beam struggle, but at the end of the day that's just two characters just pointing at each other and gritting their teeth.

Watching Gohan fight the Gammas was cool because we really don't get those kind of unique moves.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:52 pm

dva_raza wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:10 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:01 pm - When, Post-Z, is he ever shown whining about anything at all?
Literally any time Goku is out doing/getting something he’s not?

Every motivation he feels in Super comes from jealousy, giving the illusion that he's this hard worker who cant’ get the better end of the stick... except again, he was the prodigy. If he started being like 10k more powerful that Goku and immediately fell behind to always be whining about “surpassing” Goku it’s proably cus he doesn’t know how to train effectively.
You aren't making any sense lol. It was never stated anywhere that the Ritual was the only way to unlock SSG.

Vegeta got the form by training with Whis for 6 months after BoG, and Goku himself give Vegeta props for that in RoF.
I’m not making sense because I considered Shenron’s statement, a statement?

He went on for 5 minutes about what a SS God is and never said it was simply a form obtainable by any Saiyan who is able to get God Ki through any means.

And yeah, Goku giving Vegeta "props" for it is exactly the exposition that I mean. It's just a mention. Which you accept fine for Vegeta, but whenever Goku gets something in that way, then you call it "an asspull".
And I wasn't even mainly talking about transformations in my first post, I'm talking about the fact that all of Vegeta's abilities and techniques prior to RoF was self-taught, while all of Goku's even now is stolen or learned from others. Needing outside help for what others can do on their own is a bad look, and "he got it through exposition" is a dumb argument because it doesn't change the facts of how exactly how he got it in-universe

It's not dumb when these "in universe facts" are achieved with retcons.
I wasn’t talking exclusively about transformations either, I just gave one example. His "win" in the latest film is another one.

They resorted to Goku being all of a sudden against meditation (???) to be able to justify that little fan-service.

Also it's absurd for you to say Goku looks bad because he's open to learn from others when the first time Vegeta has become on par with Goku happened after he accepted to learn from others.

Bro, do you even watch or read Super lol?

- There's not a single scene of him of Super complaining about Goku doing anything while he doesn't, you failed to point out a single example while spewing your biases. If anything its the other way around, when Vegeta was training with Whis for 6 months Goku was the one whining about be left out. Whenever there's no conflict or big event, Goku and Vegeta tends to keep their distance and Vegeta seldom ever even thinks about Goku unless he's literally around him.

- "Every motivation he feels comes from jealousy", bullshit lmao. Super and even GT made it clear that his new primary motivation is keeping the Earth and his family, Goku is just a side thing that he doesn't even consider personal anymore. None of Vegeta's 3 biggest power upgrades (SSBE, Yarthat training, UE) had anything to with Goku. In fact, when Goku unlocked UI for the first time in the ToP Vegeta didn't really seem to care at all (and he's never shown complaining about any additional powerup Goku gets from there, he didn't even complain about SSG in BoG, so your argument is complete BS lol).

- Vegeta never said at any point that SSG wasn't ever achievable without the ritual, in fact not even Shenron did, that's just BS headcanon that you made up. There is no retcon, you are just mad that the series doesn't support your headcanon.

Just because a character you hate gets any kind of shine or attention doesn't mean it's cheap fanservice or a retcon, that's just you projecting your hate onto the series.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:16 pm

Izanagi wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:54 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:34 pmThere is not a single line in the original manga of Vegeta ever saying this.
"I still fight to win...To enjoy it...To kill enemies...To puff up my pride."
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And what the hell does any of this have to do with lacking "Saiyan pride"? Nothing at all, since Saiyans themselves aren't a family valuing people to begin with and its actually common for them in U7 to kill relatives like its nothing. It's like you're projecting your own morality into the series while ignoring the actual morality in the story.
Bardock, Paragus, and Nappa debunks this belief. No group of people possesses the exact same attitude, behavior, demeanor, and conveyance of emotion as each other. Everyone is different. Take Bardock, for example. He is a warrior who plunders planets for a living, but he exhibits camaraderie and care of other Saiyans. Nappa suggests bringing Raditz back to life until Vegeta shoots him down, and is horrified when Vegeta blows up one of the Saibaimen. Meanwhile, as much as Paragus abused Broli, he still loved him and didn't want him to be harmed. Even Raditz gave Goku several chances to join him before deciding that he's a lost cause.

The Saiyans are brutal and war-loving, yes. But you are wrong if you think they don't value camaraderie or warm relations with other Saiyans to some degree. Vegeta was just a real scumbag even by Saiyan standards, and didn't really seem to give a rat's ass about his own people in the slightest.
Did you even watch the Buu saga lol? It was because of Vegeta's pride that he was able to maintain complete freewill and Babidi was unable to have any control over him unlike Dabura. And cheating your way into power because you refuse to accept another person being stronger than you is exactly what someone who's filled with pride/hubris would do.
...And in the very same arc, Vegeta refuses to fuse with Goku, because to Vegeta, a true Saiyan doesn't rely on other people to get stronger.
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- You clearly lack basic reading comprehension lmao. Nowhere in that quote in the Buu saga did he say that his "Saiyan pride" was a lie, in fact he just said that he does all of those things to boost it up and its consistent with how most Saiyans were portrayed in Z. And he was doing all this before he even met Goku, a fact you keep ignoring.

- Raditz was willing to disown and kill Goku after finding out that he didn't conquer Earth without a 2nd thought. Paragus treated Broly as a tool for his own ends and frequently abused him. There's no evidence of any fatherly love from him and he would have never abused him if he didn't him to be harmed. Nappa wasn't all that upset at Raditz not getting wish back after Vegeta shot that idea down. Bardock is the exception to the rule, but even he was portrayed as not giving a damn about Goku until he got his future visions in Z.

- You realize that your final quote actually proves my point right lol? He rejected the fusion because he was pissed about Goku hiding SSJ3 and him making a sacrifice for nothing.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:01 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:12 pm You're not wrong , but arguing with Vegeta simps will never get you anywhere. They are too busy defending a genocidal maniac because the dub made him seem like a better dad than Goku and gave him a few lines that inspire neckbeards
Since when does arguing with clear facts make you a simp? And there's no actual dub changes with how Vegeta treats his kids. And neckbeards and "woke" folks are typically the biggest Vegeta haters low, while regular casual viewers are often the biggest Vegeta fans.
OmegaAlphaDelta123 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:30 am
MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm No offense, but you sound like a really butthurt Vegeta hater.
Not going to lie. Yes, yes I am. He's a character who served his purpose after Namek and who after being revived, did nothing but hog the spotlight from characters who I found far more interesting like Krillin, Yamcha, Tien and Piccolo, each of whom had redeeming qualities before joining the Z-Fighters and who didn't commit genocide on a planetary scale multiple times. (Not to mention him killing innocent civilians in the tournament because "I wAnNa FiGhT mUh KaKaRrOt!") Him still hanging around after Namek is like Darth Vader chilling with the rebels at the end of Return of the Jedi. I may be neutral to lukewarm on him as he is now, but after seeing how much better Zuko's redemption was handled in Avatar: The Last Airbender, I don't like how his redemption was handled at all and therefore, don't like him in the Cell or Buu Sagas.

Calling Tien, Yamcha and Krillin more interesting is laughable. Tien became a nothing character after the 22nd TB since everything he had going for him as a character ended with that saga and he has barely any personality. Outside of the meme stuff, Yamcha is pretty hollow too, and Krillin is just "meh" at best. That's was Toriyama pushed then to the side.

And the Zuko comparison is stupid because Vegeta and Zuko aren't even the same type of character, the Vader comparison is even dumber

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm First of all, Yamcha's character wasn't assassinated, he was always a memetic loser and a joke character even when he was a villain.
I'm not talking about his status as a memetic loser, I'm talking about the fact that Toriyama made Yamcha a cheater to justify Bulma sleeping with Vegeta. Yamcha is characterised early on as a romantic in nature who wants to get married, so the idea that he would cheat on the only steady girlfriend he ever had is nothing but as dbz_raza put it, unbelievable exposition that contradicts his character. It's something bad fanfiction writers do to get their favourite couples together, not something you'd expect from a professional writer

Toriyama himself admitted in a later interview that Yamcha never cheated, make of that what you will
MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm 2nd, Bulma has a history with liking evil men and when she was with Yamcha she would constantly hit on other men even in front of him.
Except all the other times that Bulma hit on men, it was played for laughs. We don't even get any foreshadowing that Bulma had a thing for Vegeta, even on Namek. There is no organic reason that they got together except that Toriyama needed an available womb to produce Trunks. Even the voice actors of the three characters involved thought it made no sense. Here's an interview of the interview in the Daizenshuu:

Tsuru (Bulma): One day, all of a sudden, she married Vegeta and gave birth to Trunks… “Huh? What just happened here?” is how it felt.

Horikawa (Vegeta): There wasn’t even any sort of foreshadowing.

Furuya (Yamcha): At that time, I just wanted to leave the studio and go home.

Tsuru (Bulma): However, after that, I tried to bring myself to love Vegeta, but… it was a struggle.

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It doesn't matter whether of nothing something is serious or played for laughs, it still reflects Bulma's character regardless
MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm 3rd, there was no actual shift in Vegeta's character after Namek. The reason why he acted pragmatic in Namek was because he was dealing with an army of fighters that he knows from the start that are stronger than him, which wasn't the case in every other arc including the Saiyan saga.
This may be true, but I like it when characters are forced to act outside their comfort zones and I find Vegeta acting like a tactical strategist who tries to survive, even resorting to teaming up with Gohan and Kuririn against the Ginyu Force and Frieza while also acting like a wild card far more interesting than the bland anti-hero who screws everything up and gets away with it without so much as a slap on the wrist. The fact that he can't sense when villains are stronger than him in the Cell and Buu Saga and the story doesn't let him use any sort of tactics is disappointing to me.

He doesn't ever actually get away with anything, this constant complaint is dumb. And speaking of the Buu saga, he was always aware that Buu was stronger than him and it was Vegeta's planning that led to Kid Buu defeat in the end
MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm Also, when other characters make stupid decisions in the show they get far less hate for it than Vegeta does, even though those other characters are actively going against their interests and goals in protecting the Earth while Vegeta (until the later half of the Buu saga) had zero interest or care in saving the world so he shouldn't have been expected to make responsible choices in the first place.
See, if the Z-Fighters knew that Vegeta couldn't be trusted with protecting the world in the Cell Saga going onwards, why would they trust him with the info that the Androids were going to show up? Why would they trust him with anything after he let Cell become perfect? If you think the Z-Fighters have a vested interest in protecting the Earth, then they should also care about getting Vegeta to piss off, since he was a direct threat to Earth in the Saiyan Saga and an indirect threat to it in the Cell and Buu Sagas. I mean, it's not like they needed him around any more after Namek since Goku was there.

Also, the motive behind a lot of the Z-Fighter's stupid decisions doesn't come across as arrogant and petty as Vegeta's do. Vegeta made his stupid decisions because of some vague poorly defined "Saiyan pride," that just seems to be the default excuse for whenever he decides to do something stupid. (E.g. letting Cell become Perfect because of his raging ego or letting Babidi control him to have a dick-measuring contest with Goku because he's still so insecure about the fact he can't catch up to him.) Piccolo's decision to go to Namek, while dumb is something I can understand because he wanted Freeza to pay for slaughtering his people. Krillin stomping the remote to avoid killing 18 I can understand because as an Android, she hadn't done anything wrong and didn't appear evil. Goku throwing Cell a Sensu Bean is something I can understand because he saw Gohan's power in the Time Chamber, he wanted Cell to have a fair fight and he genuinely believed in his son that much. (It still fits his characterization during the end of the Piccolo Jr Arc, too.) All of those decisions, dumb as they are come across as a lot more understandable and nuanced than Vegeta selfishly screwing everyone over with his own ego

There's nothing nuanced or understandable about the stupid decisions other characters make at all (except Goku), that's just you once again being a biased Vegeta hater because those decisions make zero sense and are inconsistent with those characters' motives and characterization. You are just making excuses.

Piccolo showed no real interest in Namek before meeting Nail, Krillin was never portrayed as being all that desperate to get laid prior to the Cell saga, etc. Both of those decisions were far dumber and more costly than anything Vegeta does.

Its doesn't matter how positive or negative a character's intentions are, if they are inconsistent with the character's nature and motivations then it is just bad writing for the sake of the plot.

Goku and Vegeta are the only 2 characters who's bad decision making actually makes sense

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm "VeGeTa OnLy ExIsT tO MoVe ThE pLoT fOrWaRd", that's what a character in a story is supposed to do lol, he is the only non-protagonist fighter beside Future Trunks who's actions actually matter and have any real consequences to them. The rest of the supporting cast most of the time could be removed from a Saga's plot and nothing would change, which is a massive red flag that suggests that they are a nothing character.
I mean, sure, but it makes Vegeta come across as a moron and it makes the Z-Fighters come across as morons for putting up with his shit for so long. Just like how Dragon Ball Super anime Goku comes across as a moron for his actions even if they move the plot forward. To me, Vegeta's idiocy don't make Cell or Babidi look better as villains, it just makes Vegeta look worse for falling for such obvious ploys. So yes, Vegeta does move the plot forward, but moving the plot forward because of your own incompetence is not a good look for a character imo. (See DBS Goku.)

You completely missed the point lol. If nothing a character does has any real impact on the narrative or on the character themselves then they are a nothing character just taking up space. This makes 98% of the rest of the cast worse than Vegeta by default, including all of your favorites
MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm And no, TFS has zero influence on the DragonBall franchise. DBZ Abriged is just an obscure online parody series that's only known among North American fans, the vast majority of DB fans worldwide has never even heard of it, especially Japan. Hell, even most of the English dub voice actors never heard of DBZ Abridged until fans told them about it.

Could have fooled me between Mr Popo's stare when Vegeta breaks the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Goku being a dumbass and bad father being exaggerated up to eleven, but whatever.

None of that has anything to do with TFS. These were fandom jokes in Japan and worldwide for decades. Americans need to stop acting like they are the center of the DragonBall franchise, its really ignorant and annoying
MrGohanks wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:05 pm And I wasn't even mainly talking about transformations in my first post, I'm talking about the fact that all of Vegeta's abilities and techniques prior to RoF was self-taught, while all of Goku's even now is stolen or learned from others. Needing outside help for what others can do on their own is a bad look, and "he got it through exposition" is a dumb argument because it doesn't change the facts of how exactly how he got it in-universe.
Vegeta "stole" Kuririn's Kienzan to use against Gohan in the Saiyan Saga. If you're going to get mad at Goku for "stealing" the Kamehameha or Taiyoken, Vegeta has used an unoriginal technique against the Z-Fighters before.

Kienzan was never just a Krillin thing, and there's nothing suggesting that Vegeta couldn't do it before the Saiyan arc

Even then, all of Vegeta's original attacks pre Moro Arc (Galick Gun, Big Bang Attack, Final Flash) are just based on overpowering your opponent with a beam or ball, something that any other Z-Fighter can do while he doesn't have any moves that could help him against a stronger opponent. This just further proves dbz_raza and I's point that Vegeta just tries to brute force all his enemies and isn't a good strategist before the Moro Arc.

Vegeta actually has more strategic feats than every other Z fighter except Goku and Roshi. He's the main reason the Namek saga was a success for the heroes, the reason why Buu was beaten in the end, successfully outwits Magetta in the U6, was able to put up a better fight against Jiren with just SSB and adapting than Goku did with SSB Kaioken, etc

Strategy in general rarely matters in DragonBall, and none of the other Z Fighters are ever shown to be successful with strategy except the 3 I mentioned


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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MrGohanks » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:14 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:49 pm
dva_raza wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:35 pm How does any of that belong on an unpopular opinions thread?
Most people tend to consider DBS Broly to be one of the best movies (if not the best) while i've found it disappointing and Super Hero is better in almost every way imo.
DBS Broly has a considerably better narrative and main fights than SuperHero does. The new Broly himself is a more interesting character than the ones introduced in Superhero, and Gogeta vs Broly is easily the best fight of any DragonBall film.

SuperHero is funnier though.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:40 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:52 pm
dva_raza wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:10 pm
MrGohanks wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:01 pm - When, Post-Z, is he ever shown whining about anything at all?
Literally any time Goku is out doing/getting something he’s not?

Every motivation he feels in Super comes from jealousy, giving the illusion that he's this hard worker who cant’ get the better end of the stick... except again, he was the prodigy. If he started being like 10k more powerful that Goku and immediately fell behind to always be whining about “surpassing” Goku it’s proably cus he doesn’t know how to train effectively.
You aren't making any sense lol. It was never stated anywhere that the Ritual was the only way to unlock SSG.

Vegeta got the form by training with Whis for 6 months after BoG, and Goku himself give Vegeta props for that in RoF.
I’m not making sense because I considered Shenron’s statement, a statement?

He went on for 5 minutes about what a SS God is and never said it was simply a form obtainable by any Saiyan who is able to get God Ki through any means.

And yeah, Goku giving Vegeta "props" for it is exactly the exposition that I mean. It's just a mention. Which you accept fine for Vegeta, but whenever Goku gets something in that way, then you call it "an asspull".
And I wasn't even mainly talking about transformations in my first post, I'm talking about the fact that all of Vegeta's abilities and techniques prior to RoF was self-taught, while all of Goku's even now is stolen or learned from others. Needing outside help for what others can do on their own is a bad look, and "he got it through exposition" is a dumb argument because it doesn't change the facts of how exactly how he got it in-universe

It's not dumb when these "in universe facts" are achieved with retcons.
I wasn’t talking exclusively about transformations either, I just gave one example. His "win" in the latest film is another one.

They resorted to Goku being all of a sudden against meditation (???) to be able to justify that little fan-service.

Also it's absurd for you to say Goku looks bad because he's open to learn from others when the first time Vegeta has become on par with Goku happened after he accepted to learn from others.

Bro, do you even watch or read Super lol?

- There's not a single scene of him of Super complaining about Goku doing anything while he doesn't, you failed to point out a single example while spewing your biases.
I failed in my assumption that you didn’t need each instance to be spelled out..

But from top of my head,
- Vegeta leaving his family trip the instant he thinks about Goku, then complaining about Goku being #1 in the next scene..?
- Vegeta whining about his boring training when Goku is absent on his Hit project
- Vegeta complaining to Goku about UI (don’t know why you’d say he didn’t care, it’s as if you watched a different show) followed by a sad and desperate attempt unlock it himself lol

- "Every motivation he feels comes from jealousy", bullshit lmao. Super and even GT made it clear that his new primary motivation is keeping the Earth and his family, Goku is just a side thing that he doesn't even consider personal anymore. None of Vegeta's 3 biggest power upgrades (SSBE, Yarthat training, UE) had anything to with Goku. In fact, when Goku unlocked UI for the first time in the ToP Vegeta didn't really seem to care at all (and he's never shown complaining about any additional powerup Goku gets from there, he didn't even complain about SSG in BoG, so your argument is complete BS lol).

I don’t know if you’re trolling me right now or you have some sort mental filter that doesn’t let you receive anything you don’t like.

Like do you not remember WHAT made Vegeta beg Whis to train him in the first place..?


- Vegeta never said at any point that SSG wasn't ever achievable without the ritual, in fact not even Shenron did, that's just BS headcanon that you made up. There is no retcon, you are just mad that the series doesn't support your headcanon.
Huh? What headcanon dude. I said Shenron never mentioned any other way to achieve SSG and he factually didn’t.

Just because a character you hate gets any kind of shine or attention doesn't mean it's cheap fanservice or a retcon, that's just you projecting your hate onto the series.
‘Projecting hate’ lol yeah forgive me if I’m a little annoyed by Goku being LITERALLY RETCONNED to justify Vegeta getting his long awaited “1st win” for the 3rd time.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:48 pm

Old reminder that Vegeta getting Super Saiyan God/god Ki through other means doesn't constitute a retcon as it only happened in the anime. The anime does not take place in the same continuity of the movies.

We don't even know how Vegeta attained it in the manga continuity, Toyotaro never bothered to say anything about it so far.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:52 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:48 pm Old reminder that Vegeta getting Super Saiyan God/god Ki through other means doesn't constitute a retcon as it only happened in the anime. The anime does not take place in the same continuity of the movies.
But he obtained SS Blue in the anime, that means he had to go through Super Saiyan God for that either way. And he never said he did the ritual.

Edit: actually, that's not even relevant though. In RoF Goku says Vegeta obtained SSB through his 'hard work', implying he didn't have to do the ritual as he did, which is my sole point here.
Last edited by dva_raza on Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:16 pm

Modern_Dingus wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:06 pm
dva_raza wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:24 am
sunsetshimmer wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:49 pm

Most people tend to consider DBS Broly to be one of the best movies (if not the best) while i've found it disappointing and Super Hero is better in almost every way imo.
In every way, seriously? The fights in Broly are spectacular.
The Broly fights ARE cool, but I think they just get bogged down because of how much mid-air-clashing and over-the-top spectacle we've seen throughout the series.

It's like, yeah it's cool to see someone do a beam struggle, but at the end of the day that's just two characters just pointing at each other and gritting their teeth.
But Vegeta vs Broly didn’t have any beam struggles...

I don’t know why fights in Broly are reduced to “over the top clashing” .
The main reason I liked Vegeta vs Broly was how clean and interesting the choreography was.
It was precise and fluid and made each fighters fighting style shine a lot. The whole direction was almost flawless, the variation of camera angles was probably the best I’ve seen of any fight.

I for one and am in the camp where DBS:SH fights were the best fights in Super because they felt more intimate, the grappling, the weight, it all felt more... attainable?

Watching Gohan fight the Gammas was cool because we really don't get those kind of unique moves.
Honestly I'm not even sure what unique moves you could be referring to... only one I can think of is the way Gamma 1 stood back up at one point lol.

Overall the Gammas where cool but I saw nothing new from Gohan or Piccolo. And yeah there was a lotta grappling but how was it more grounded than in any other fight in Super?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:45 am

dva_raza wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:52 pmBut he obtained SS Blue in the anime, that means he had to go through Super Saiyan God for that either way. And he never said he did the ritual.

Edit: actually, that's not even relevant though. In RoF Goku says Vegeta obtained SSB through his 'hard work', implying he didn't have to do the ritual as he did, which is my sole point here.
All of that is correct. But again, that's the reality for the anime only. Only in the anime did Vegeta get it without the ritual. We don't know how he got it in the manga, and in the movie, the ritual is implied to have happened. So no "retcon" here.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dva_raza » Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:32 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:45 am But again, that's the reality for the anime only. Only in the anime did Vegeta get it without the ritual.

Sorry, I understand less what you mean now, then.
I thought you were saying it wasn’t ever said in the anime or movie that Vegeta bypassed the ritual.

If it was then the point stands, I said in the anime reality Shenron stated something that later on turned out to be not necessary. How's that not a retcon?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:02 pm

No, I'm just saying Vegeta getting Super Saiyan God/god Ki without the ritual doesn't constitute a retcon based on this quote below, I'm reiterating what's been said here, as some people often think that there's a retcon without realizing the continuities thing. Even though it's possible to achieve it through other means, we need to keep in mind that stuff happened differently.
MrGohanks wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:52 pm- Vegeta never said at any point that SSG wasn't ever achievable without the ritual, in fact not even Shenron did, that's just BS headcanon that you made up. There is no retcon, you are just mad that the series doesn't support your headcanon.

What I didn't get is if you are talking while sticking to the anime continuity or speaking in general. If it's the former, I apologize. I missed the point then.
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