Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:16 pm

It's all right there in the writing. Toriyama never did anything "just because". The androids being stronger than Freeza was given a believable explanation. As was most else in DB/DBZ. Super also made it believable. It's GT that's the exception, for the reasons I've already explained.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pm

Super thematically is flawless, it is clear that the writers have a plan and structure in mind. All arcs of Super are connected to the theme of "venturing into the realm of the Gods", which is stated to be the objective of the story since the start [BATTLE OF GODS]; though admittedly some arcs execute this theme better than others (Zamasu/ToP arcs are the best thematically), regardless all arcs of Super are clearly connected thematically.

GT thematically is a complete mess, there is no order, no structure, and no unity, it's just random shit happening all over the place. """""Thematically""""" the first arc is about adventure in space, then there is the theme of vengeance with Baby, then there is whatever the fuck that random shit with Hell was supposed to be, and then there's the theme of abusing the Dragon Balls which kind of comes out of nowhere honestly. It might have been better if that awful Super 17 arc was simply erased from existence, perhaps then the Shadow Dragon arc would feel more connected due to happening right after Piccolo's death.

Literally tell me what the overarching theme of GT is, I don't think you'll be able to give a concise answer like I did for Super, or an answer at all :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pm Super thematically is flawless, it is clear that the writers have a plan and structure in mind. All arcs of Super are connected to the theme of "venturing into the realm of the Gods", which is stated to be the objective of the story since the start [BATTLE OF GODS]; though admittedly some arcs execute this theme better than others (Zamasu/ToP arcs are the best thematically), regardless all arcs of Super are clearly connected thematically.

GT thematically is a complete mess, there is no order, no structure, and no unity, it's just random shit happening all over the place. """""Thematically""""" the first arc is about adventure in space, then there is the theme of vengeance with Baby, then there is whatever the fuck that random shit with Hell was supposed to be, and then there's the theme of abusing the Dragon Balls which kind of comes out of nowhere honestly. It might have been better if that awful Super 17 arc was simply erased from existence, perhaps then the Shadow Dragon arc would feel more connected due to happening right after Piccolo's death.

Literally tell me what the overarching theme of GT is, I don't think you'll be able to give a concise answer like I did for Super, or an answer at all :lol:
I don't really understand what your argument is here. The common, overaching theme across ALL of Dragon Ball (OG+Z, which are technically the same, and then GT and Super) is getting stronger. That's literally it.

And this theme doesn't even begin until the second arc, where the show began to merge it's gag/comedy style with martial arts. The first saga of Dragon Ball, the Hunt for the Dragon Balls, bears next to nothing in common with most of the rest of the original series. And Dragon Ball is full of different genres and tones mix-matched together. It goes from fairy tale/fantasy to James Bond/80s action movies, to horror to sci-fi to space adventure, to supernatural all with comedy and martial arts as the constants. You can make the case that GT wasn't executed well, and many would agree on that, but it's not because it's has many tropes of many genres mixed together because every Dragon Ball series has always had that. If you feel Super is better than GT or any of the others, that's cool and all. This just feels like you're going out of your way to "prove" it's better when it only shows that Super's chosen to further introduce gods and angels as characters. I mean, I like that too, but again, having different genre elements isn't what makes GT weak, it's the execution. I wouldn't even consider the angels/gods a "theme" of Super, it's just a new element introduced to help our characters attain greater power, something the franchise has always done. With GT it was introducing more Saiyan lore with Golden Oozaru/SSJ4.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:15 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:16 pm It's all right there in the writing. Toriyama never did anything "just because". The androids being stronger than Freeza was given a believable explanation. As was most else in DB/DBZ. Super also made it believable. It's GT that's the exception, for the reasons I've already explained.
How is a lone mad scientist builds killing machines capable of easily killing the biggest big bad DB ever had even after he stopped watching our heroes making their biggest leaps in power a believable explanation?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:39 pm

GT is still enjoyable, despite its randomness. It's not necessarily a knock against it to say that it lacks believability and you have to just go with it. All that means is that no matter how enjoyable the show is, no matter how much better executed it could have been, the show would never feel like a genuine follow-up to DB/DBZ. It would always be the odd man out, thanks in part to its lack of believability and logic.

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:15 pm How is a lone mad scientist builds killing machines capable of easily killing the biggest big bad DB ever had even after he stopped watching our heroes making their biggest leaps in power a believable explanation?
Gero studied Goku for years. He knew how to replicate all of his fighting abilities. Unlike Goku and Freeza, the androids are not flesh and blood, but artificial. 19 and 20 are machines and 17 and 18 have bodies that were completely transformed inside and out. The twins also have infinite energy reactors inside of them that give them the edge over everyone. Gero was clearly a genius, and probably had resources stockpiled, along with secret connections possibly, even if he appeared to be a loner to the outside world.

As for Namek, Gero did say that he calculated any potential future increases in Goku's power. This is all possible with mathematics and computers. Even if he fell short with 19/20, they were still as powerful as they were. And clearly he corrected his mistakes for 17/18.

It's all about including logic in the writing. GT chose to forgo all of that and just make villains more powerful "just because".

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:48 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:39 pm GT is still enjoyable, despite its randomness. It's not necessarily a knock against it to say that it lacks believability and you have to just go with it. All that means is that no matter how enjoyable the show is, no matter how much better executed it could have been, the show would never feel like a genuine follow-up to DB/DBZ. It would always be the odd man out, thanks in part to its lack of believability and logic.

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:15 pm How is a lone mad scientist builds killing machines capable of easily killing the biggest big bad DB ever had even after he stopped watching our heroes making their biggest leaps in power a believable explanation?
Gero studied Goku for years. He knew how to replicate all of his fighting abilities. Unlike Goku and Freeza, the androids are not flesh and blood, but artificial. 19 and 20 are machines and 17 and 18 have bodies that were completely transformed inside and out. The twins also have infinite energy reactors inside of them that give them the edge over everyone. Gero was clearly a genius, and probably had resources stockpiled, along with secret connections possibly, even if he appeared to be a loner to the outside world.

As for Namek, Gero did say that he calculated any potential future increases in Goku's power. This is all possible with mathematics and computers. Even if he fell short with 19/20, they were still as powerful as they were. And clearly he corrected his mistakes for 17/18.

It's all about including logic in the writing. GT chose to forgo all of that and just make villains more powerful "just because".
Gero also clearly stated that he determined Goku would not make any more significant increases in power after the Saiyan arc.

As with any piece of fantasy or even science fiction, no matter how much "logic", there's always leaps the audience has to make.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:50 pm

Toriyama also decided to make a scientist capable of making beings more powerful than Freeza, then beings more powerful than Super Saiyans who had surpassed Freeza "just because." @MyVisionity You're acting like this was just some walk in the park to surpass Freeza, but Freeza at the time was every bit the "ultimate villain" Boo was later. Hence why Freeza is always mentioned as the benchmark by which to measure characters, at least until Perfect Cell. And then it's the exact same with Boo. It would be different if Toriyama stated clearly that "machines/androids cannot be stronger than the most powerful of organic or magical beings," but that rule doesn't exist in Dragon Ball.

Any scientific explanation is irrelevant. I mean, it's nice, and even creative, but the logic itself is still loose and not really important. Toriyama decided to make Gero capable of making androids stronger than Freeza, and then trio of androids even stronger "just because" he could. The writers of GT made Rildo stronger "just because" they could. Jiren is so strong "just because" Jiren is so strong.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:24 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:38 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:42 pm Whats so interesting about Prince Vegeta and King Vegeta doing a joint Galick Gun? Or Goku and Bardock doing their respective signature moves at the same time? The spectacle aside (which really doesnt sound all that impressive anyway) how does any of that push Goku and Vegeta's character forward? Goku isnt gonna start taking an interest in wearing saiyan armor out of respect for his race and Vegeta is already a proud saiyan and even he sheds all the armor eventually, hell when we first meet him, he could give fuck all about resurrecting his people upon learning about the DBs.
Goku and Vegeta could both learn lessons from their fathers and perhaps vice versa. It's not just about Saiyan pride. What can Bardock and Goku teach one another about the martial arts? What can Vegeta teach the King about family and friends? Maybe the King can teach his son some things that Vegeta assumed he already knew, but actually never did at all. Plus it would make for an interesting plot. Time travel? Parallel worlds? Clones? You never know. Fathers/Sons team-ups have potential.
Even by the end of the Freeza arc Goku and Vegeta are far and beyond what any saiyan was thought to be capable of, now in the current era when they're in God territory when it comes to their strength and training, what could their respective fathers possibly teach them? Even if Goku was to train Bardock, what purpose would that serve long term? You already have a hard time believing Boo can be surpassed yet you'd be okay with Bardock who's weaker than Yamcha to suddenly be around Toppo and Jiren's level cause he sparred with Goku?

Vegeta seemed to have a positive relationship with his father at least by saiyan standards, there's nothing to reconcile on that end so whats he gonna do? Show off his kids? I'm sure the King expected his son to one day sire a family, there's really nothing to gain from that. Father/Son team ups have potential if it fits within whats already been established such as Goku and Gohan teaming up or Vegeta and Trunks. Goku doesnt know his father and showed no real agency in getting to know him and Vegeta is content with his father being dead, besides, seeing where Vegeta's character grows to both in the current material and GT, the last thing he'd want is to hear his dad froth at the mouth about saiyan this and saiyan that when Vegeta himself is already beyond most of those beliefs, he'd just be annoyed.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:49 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:48 pm Gero also clearly stated that he determined Goku would not make any more significant increases in power after the Saiyan arc.

As with any piece of fantasy or even science fiction, no matter how much "logic", there's always leaps the audience has to make.
Even so, despite Gero's statements he obviously still played it safe and planned ahead for any unexpected outcomes. We see that clearly with how powerful the androids actually turned out to be. Whether by design or by accident, Gero's methods ultimately worked.

I didn't say the logic was airtight, just that it was there. Of course there are some leaps, but it has to be believable at least on some level.

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:50 pm @MyVisionity You're acting like this was just some walk in the park to surpass Freeza, but Freeza at the time was every bit the "ultimate villain" Boo was later.
It wasn't a walk in the park. I'm sure it took Gero's genius, hard work, and many years to do what he did. But ultimately he pulled it off, because of science, because of artificial life. That was the key to besting beings like Freeza and the Super Saiyans.

Freeza was not the "ultimate villain" in the same sense that Majin Boo was. Boo was the *final* villain, and so had to be written to be the most unstoppable force to ever exist. And he was. Freeza doesn't compare. Majin Boo was an almost godlike entity that nearly wiped out all of existence. That kind of thing can't just be surpassed afterwards by going "just because".

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:50 pm Any scientific explanation is irrelevant. I mean, it's nice, and even creative, but the logic itself is still loose and not really important.
The science is relevant because it supports the logic, no matter how loose it may or may not be. Logic is always important for a series like this one, because without it, you cannot have believability which is the key to maintaining its integrity and credibility.


goku the krump dancer wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:24 pm <snip>
It's not just about fighting techniques. It's about the spirit of martial arts. How do Goku and Bardock align or differ in their respective philosophies? How does this reflect their personalities and outlooks on life? Plus, even with the power gaps, there are always fighting methods that can be taught to one another. As for them keeping up with the others, well if Super can have Roshi and them fighting together then certainly Dock and King can contribute. I'm not saying it would be believable, just doable for Super.

King Vegeta probably could not have foreseen his son forming *this* kind of family, nor his life on Earth. That's a lot Vegeta can teach him. Yeah maybe Vegeta is beyond the old Saiyan ways and would be annoyed, but that's where the conflict and drama comes in. Plus, you never know what kind of secrets the King may have been hiding. It could be a good opportunity for some juicy reveals.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:11 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:49 pm It wasn't a walk in the park. I'm sure it took Gero's genius, hard work, and many years to do what he did. But ultimately he pulled it off, because of science, because of artificial life. That was the key to besting beings like Freeza and the Super Saiyans.

Freeza was not the "ultimate villain" in the same sense that Majin Boo was. Boo was the *final* villain, and so had to be written to be the most unstoppable force to ever exist. And he was. Freeza doesn't compare. Majin Boo was an almost godlike entity that nearly wiped out all of existence. That kind of thing can't just be surpassed afterwards by going "just because".

The science is relevant because it supports the logic, no matter how loose it may or may not be. Logic is always important for a series like this one, because without it, you cannot have believability which is the key to maintaining its integrity and credibility.
Freeza was absolutely treated like a godlike entity upon his introduction, whether he literally was or not. And his subsequent transformations set the template for Cell and Boo, and in some ways even the Saiyans. The only time Freeza wasn't made to seem invincible was when Goku became a Super Saiyan. I mean, the guy survived the super Spirit Bomb, for goodness' sake, and was hardly even weakened from it. The reason Super Saiyan was such a cathartic moment is because we saw that Freeza could actually be defeated. This is the first time I've even seen a Dragon Ball fan make the case that Freeza wasn't considered the ultimate villain upon his introduction.

Putting aside the whole "logic" debate, it's as a clear as day that Toriyama had built Freeza as the ultimate Big Bad. I mean, that's what happens with every major villain introduced. Of course they had to make Boo seem "bigger," but the actual template is exactly the same.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:14 pm

Believable to whom? You seem to assume this line isn't arbitrary. There is no great logic to one single scientist alone making that huge a leap when he doesn't have the resources and there's no reason to do so.
Freeza was not the "ultimate villain" in the same sense that Majin Boo was. Boo was the *final* villain, and so had to be written to be the most unstoppable force to ever exist.
And how is that demonstrated? By expository dialog. If Baby or someone else is said to be stronger, then it's so for the same reason.

I can't recall if it's in the manga, but at one point, Kaio refers to someone who ultimately ends up being Freeza as the "root of evil". So yes, Freeza was for a while positioned as the big bad to end all big bads.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:37 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pm Super thematically is flawless, it is clear that the writers have a plan and structure in mind. All arcs of Super are connected to the theme of "venturing into the realm of the Gods", which is stated to be the objective of the story since the start [BATTLE OF GODS]; though admittedly some arcs execute this theme better than others (Zamasu/ToP arcs are the best thematically), regardless all arcs of Super are clearly connected thematically.

GT thematically is a complete mess, there is no order, no structure, and no unity, it's just random shit happening all over the place. """""Thematically""""" the first arc is about adventure in space, then there is the theme of vengeance with Baby, then there is whatever the fuck that random shit with Hell was supposed to be, and then there's the theme of abusing the Dragon Balls which kind of comes out of nowhere honestly. It might have been better if that awful Super 17 arc was simply erased from existence, perhaps then the Shadow Dragon arc would feel more connected due to happening right after Piccolo's death.

Literally tell me what the overarching theme of GT is, I don't think you'll be able to give a concise answer like I did for Super, or an answer at all :lol:
That's literally the biggest bs i've read for a while. First arc of GT introduced machine mutants, theme that was used as major plot point for next 2 arcs as well, making 3 out of 4 arcs of GT having main cast fighting one race. Baby arc is directly and flawlessly connected to first arc revealing all of that mess happening was his work. Then Super 17 arc uses Myuu for its story to bring #17 to his maximum potential by turning him into machine mutant. Literally 75% of GT story is about one race causing mayhem. The only arc that isn't connected to that theme is Shadow Dragons arc, but it's connected to entire franchise story instead as it was meant to be final arc of all of it so it's justified. Not to mention villains escaping hell being a result of Shadow Dragons arc, story that is supposed to happen yet, making Super 17 arc a bridge between long machine mutants story and evil dragons story. Also end of Shadow Dragons arc had all the planets from first arc give energy to Goku. GT in fact has the most connected story of entire franchise and you somehow say it's just "random shit happening" :roll:

Also care to explain how Frieza returning and recoloring himself to golden was connected to "venturing into the realm of the Gods" other than Goku using god form against him or Frieza recognizing Beerus?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:42 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:11 pm Freeza was absolutely treated like a godlike entity upon his introduction, whether he literally was or not.

Putting aside the whole "logic" debate, it's as a clear as day that Toriyama had built Freeza as the ultimate Big Bad. I mean, that's what happens with every major villain introduced. Of course they had to make Boo seem "bigger," but the actual template is exactly the same.
Yes, Freeza was supposed to be especially bad, the "ultimate" villain. But, as I said, not the *final* villain. The Freeza saga was never intended to be an ending, so eventually new villains would have to be introduced that surpassed Freeza. Majin Boo, on the other hand, was written to be the final villain because the manga was ending. That meant things had to be pushed to the extremes, which they were.

For as powerful as he was, Freeza's character could not compare to Majin Boo's. Boo was arguably a kind of god in the literal sense. With his seeming immortality, magical nature, endless abilities, and being death incarnate. Freeza was just an alien. Additionally, Freeza never came near to inspiring the level of hopelessness and bleak reality that Majin Boo created. The stakes and scale were incomparable.

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:14 pm And how is that demonstrated? By expository dialog. If Baby or someone else is said to be stronger, then it's so for the same reason.

I can't recall if it's in the manga, but at one point, Kaio refers to someone who ultimately ends up being Freeza as the "root of evil". So yes, Freeza was for a while positioned as the big bad to end all big bads.
That's the problem, there was no "expository dialogue" to indicate how the GT villains could in any way measure up to Boo. Just "this guy is stronger".

"Root of evil" could have just referred to the Saiyans themselves as the evil. That was when Kuririn was about to kill Vegeta. It also could have just been figurative, since Freeza was reputed to be the strongest in the universe. As far as Kaio knew, there was no one more evil.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:48 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:42 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:11 pm Freeza was absolutely treated like a godlike entity upon his introduction, whether he literally was or not.

Putting aside the whole "logic" debate, it's as a clear as day that Toriyama had built Freeza as the ultimate Big Bad. I mean, that's what happens with every major villain introduced. Of course they had to make Boo seem "bigger," but the actual template is exactly the same.
Yes, Freeza was supposed to be especially bad, the "ultimate" villain. But, as I said, not the *final* villain. The Freeza saga was never intended to be an ending, so eventually new villains would have to be introduced that surpassed Freeza. Majin Boo, on the other hand, was written to be the final villain because the manga was ending. That meant things had to be pushed to the extremes, which they were.

For as powerful as he was, Freeza's character could not compare to Majin Boo's. Boo was arguably a kind of god in the literal sense. With his seeming immortality, magical nature, endless abilities, and being death incarnate. Freeza was just an alien. Additionally, Freeza never came near to inspiring the level of hopelessness and bleak reality that Majin Boo created. The stakes and scale were incomparable.

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:14 pm And how is that demonstrated? By expository dialog. If Baby or someone else is said to be stronger, then it's so for the same reason.

I can't recall if it's in the manga, but at one point, Kaio refers to someone who ultimately ends up being Freeza as the "root of evil". So yes, Freeza was for a while positioned as the big bad to end all big bads.
That's the problem, there was no "expository dialogue" to indicate how the GT villains could in any way measure up to Boo. Just "this guy is stronger".

"Root of evil" could have just referred to the Saiyans themselves as the evil. That was when Kuririn was about to kill Vegeta. It also could have just been figurative, since Freeza was reputed to be the strongest in the universe. As far as Kaio knew, there was no one more evil.
I'm well aware that, contrary to rumors, the Freeza arc was never intended to be the final arc of Dragon Ball. That doesn't change that Freeza was meant to be a guy secondary to no one; that's why it was such a big deal when Goku became the legendary Super Saiyan. The Freeza arc had to exist before the Majin Boo arc was even a whisper, so at that time Freeza was absolutely meant to be the type of threat that Boo was later stated to be. It not being an ending does not change that.

And as to your last point, yes, that's exactly it. As far as we knew in the story, Freeza was the ultimate evil. He was the strongest in the universe, and he was the ultimate evil. What expository dialogue was there to show why Broly was stronger in the Super movie?
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:53 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:48 am And as to your last point, yes, that's exactly it. As far as we knew in the story, Freeza was the ultimate evil. He was the strongest in the universe, and he was the ultimate evil. What expository dialogue was there to show why Broly was stronger in the Super movie?
It's not about how powerful or evil Freeza and Boo are. It's about *what* they were and the threats that they posed. Freeza was just an alien tyrant who wanted to rule the universe. Majin Boo was the devil incarnate and wanted to destroy everything in existence. One of them is harder than the other for the story to surpass.

I don't expect something like Super to be 100% logical, especially in a movie featuring a legacy character. They at least, generally, justified why there can be villains stronger than Majin Boo in the series. GT didn't even try.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:10 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:53 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:48 am And as to your last point, yes, that's exactly it. As far as we knew in the story, Freeza was the ultimate evil. He was the strongest in the universe, and he was the ultimate evil. What expository dialogue was there to show why Broly was stronger in the Super movie?
It's not about how powerful or evil Freeza and Boo are. It's about *what* they were and the threats that they posed. Freeza was just an alien tyrant who wanted to rule the universe. Majin Boo was the devil incarnate and wanted to destroy everything in existence. One of them is harder than the other for the story to surpass.

I don't expect something like Super to be 100% logical, especially in a movie featuring a legacy character. They at least, generally, justified why there can be villains stronger than Majin Boo in the series. GT didn't even try.
And Freeza had the entire galaxy at his beck and call. The fact that he had that much manpower, that many soldiers, from the Saiyans, to the Ginyu Force, to the Frieza force...the fact that beings on other planets were terrified of him...it wasn't a little thing. It was a big deal; he didn't need to be a literal devil to feel omnipotent. And I guess Super doesn't need to be 100% logical with the likes of Broly, a "legacy character," but something like GT needs to be completely logical to show a new character is stronger than Boo? Yeak, 'K, makes total sense.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:00 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:10 am And I guess Super doesn't need to be 100% logical with the likes of Broly, a "legacy character," but something like GT needs to be completely logical to show a new character is stronger than Boo? Yeak, 'K, makes total sense.
When that new character debuts just six months after Boo's defeat? Yes, some kind of logic would be nice.

I don't have much expectation for a revival series twenty years later to be so concerned with logic and believability, but for a sequel series that starts immediately after DBZ ends? I should hope there would be some effort put into maintaining consistency with the previous shows, so that the audience can believe what they are watching and not feel disrespected.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:31 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:42 am That's the problem, there was no "expository dialogue" to indicate how the GT villains could in any way measure up to Boo. Just "this guy is stronger".
And how do we know Buu is the strongest? Because they say "Whoa, he's stronger than anyone we've ever seen!" Just like they said that about everyone since Vegeta. We're supposed to believe that because they say so. This situations are no different. The lines we draw in the sand of what we will buy are arbitrary. That's fine, we just need to acknowledge that.
"Root of evil" could have just referred to the Saiyans themselves as the evil. That was when Kuririn was about to kill Vegeta. It also could have just been figurative, since Freeza was reputed to be the strongest in the universe. As far as Kaio knew, there was no one more evil.
Figurative? This is Toriyama we're talking about. He's not that subtle. He was saying there's someone more powerful than Vegeta.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:40 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:04 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pm Super thematically is flawless, it is clear that the writers have a plan and structure in mind. All arcs of Super are connected to the theme of "venturing into the realm of the Gods", which is stated to be the objective of the story since the start [BATTLE OF GODS]; though admittedly some arcs execute this theme better than others (Zamasu/ToP arcs are the best thematically), regardless all arcs of Super are clearly connected thematically.

GT thematically is a complete mess, there is no order, no structure, and no unity, it's just random shit happening all over the place. """""Thematically""""" the first arc is about adventure in space, then there is the theme of vengeance with Baby, then there is whatever the fuck that random shit with Hell was supposed to be, and then there's the theme of abusing the Dragon Balls which kind of comes out of nowhere honestly. It might have been better if that awful Super 17 arc was simply erased from existence, perhaps then the Shadow Dragon arc would feel more connected due to happening right after Piccolo's death.

Literally tell me what the overarching theme of GT is, I don't think you'll be able to give a concise answer like I did for Super, or an answer at all :lol:
I don't really understand what your argument is here. The common, overaching theme across ALL of Dragon Ball (OG+Z, which are technically the same, and then GT and Super) is getting stronger. That's literally it.
Nope, it's not just that for Super. "Getting stronger" in a vacuum means nothing, what it means in Super is treading into the territory of the Gods.
And this theme doesn't even begin until the second arc, where the show began to merge it's gag/comedy style with martial arts. The first saga of Dragon Ball, the Hunt for the Dragon Balls, bears next to nothing in common with most of the rest of the original series. And Dragon Ball is full of different genres and tones mix-matched together. It goes from fairy tale/fantasy to James Bond/80s action movies, to horror to sci-fi to space adventure, to supernatural all with comedy and martial arts as the constants. You can make the case that GT wasn't executed well, and many would agree on that, but it's not because it's has many tropes of many genres mixed together because every Dragon Ball series has always had that. If you feel Super is better than GT or any of the others, that's cool and all. This just feels like you're going out of your way to "prove" it's better when it only shows that Super's chosen to further introduce gods and angels as characters. I mean, I like that too, but again, having different genre elements isn't what makes GT weak, it's the execution. I wouldn't even consider the angels/gods a "theme" of Super, it's just a new element introduced to help our characters attain greater power, something the franchise has always done. With GT it was introducing more Saiyan lore with Golden Oozaru/SSJ4.
More Saiyan lore that lasts for only 1 arc. There's your problem. In Super the main themes never last only for 1 arc, all arcs serve the purpose of continuing and expanding upon the theme set up in BoG. Even the Future Trunks, which some people belittle because "it didn't change anything", first of all it changed a lot of things (an entire timeline is gone, a new one is created to replace it, Future Zeno is stranded in the Present, Gowasu is depressed, etc.), but it still serves the function thematically of showing what happens when a God succumbs to darkness (which in itself not only links to the original theme set up by BoG but is a splendid idea in itself which has never been done before).

You can see that Super was written by one man with one vision for the whole series, Toriyama. GT didn't even know if it wanted to be DB 2.0 or DBZ 2.0, that's why the first few episodes are an adventure in space which is so disconnected that, if I'm not mistaken, sometimes it's outright skipped when GT is aired.

Also "execution" isn't the only thing that makes GT bad, it's the ideas themselves. I never understood why some people claim GT had "great ideas", it literally recycled most of the ideas from elsewhere. The first arc is just a retread of the search for the Dragon Balls but in space, Baby is literally a mix of Garlic Jr. (infesting people) and an exact copy of that android Tuffle monster from Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans (especially in terms of backstory), the Super 17 arc is really just Fusion Reborn with all the villains escaping from Hell. Super 17 himself isn't anything, I don't know if the writers even thought about this "villain" for more than 10 minutes because he is completely generic and forgettable. The final arc the "Shadow Dragons" arc is a stupid idea honestly, the premise could have been interesting if the villaisn weren't generic pure evil monsters. But that's not execution, that's the concept of the villains, and the villains conceptually suck. Maybe Toriyama can make a similar arc by giving the "Shadow Dragons" an actual personality and compelling motivations, that would be good. He already ventured into the "revenge plot against the saiyans" storyline with Granolah and Granolah is so much more interesting than Baby and the guy from the movie to Eradicate the Saiyans, because Granolah at least feels like a human character, and he managed to make that plot linked to the Namekians, Frieza, and the aliens (Heeters) so that it's not JUST about tuffles and saiyans.

Though really I'm not a fan of the idea that the Dragon Ball, if abused, will spawn evil monsters that threaten to destroy everything, that's just an over the top idea. If the Dragon Balls are overused they should just self-explode and be done with it, the entire universe shouldn't be punished because one horny idiot used the Dragon Balls to ask for some underwears; nor should the people who used the balls to revive entire planets be punished equally, or at all.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:39 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:40 am Nope, it's not just that for Super. "Getting stronger" in a vacuum means nothing, what it means in Super is treading into the territory of the Gods.
Not sure what you mean "in a vacuum" in this context. And moreover, "getting stronger" has meaning for the characters because it's an end in itself for Goku. He's constantly pushing himself to get better because it brings him joy. Treading in the territory of the gods is just the latest application of the theme.
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