Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:09 am

ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:39 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:40 am Nope, it's not just that for Super. "Getting stronger" in a vacuum means nothing, what it means in Super is treading into the territory of the Gods.
Not sure what you mean "in a vacuum" in this context. And moreover, "getting stronger" has meaning for the characters because it's an end in itself for Goku. He's constantly pushing himself to get better because it brings him joy. Treading in the territory of the gods is just the latest application of the theme.
That it's too generic, you'd need to narrow it down. Super's theme isn't just about getting stronger because there are many ways to get stronger, what Super did is take the "God" route to get stronger. You could say that GT took the "Saiyan" route, but then again 3 out of the 4 arcs of GT don't have any connection whatsoever to the Saiyan theme.

But I heard that originally GT was supposed to stop at the Baby arc, I don't know if this is just a rumour but it would explain why the other 2 arcs are so random :think:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:27 am

Themes are typically generic.

People abuse the terms "random" and "out of nowhere". Old Kaioshin warned about the DB's interfering with the natural order in the Buu arc. The end of GT makes good on that set up.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:38 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:31 am
MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:42 am That's the problem, there was no "expository dialogue" to indicate how the GT villains could in any way measure up to Boo. Just "this guy is stronger".
And how do we know Buu is the strongest? Because they say "Whoa, he's stronger than anyone we've ever seen!" Just like they said that about everyone since Vegeta. We're supposed to believe that because they say so. This situations are no different. The lines we draw in the sand of what we will buy are arbitrary. That's fine, we just need to acknowledge that.
We understand that Boo is stronger because we are told who and what he is. Kaioshin gives us his backstory so that it makes sense logically to the audience why this guy is so much stronger than anybody else. This did not happen with Rilld in GT.

There's nothing arbitrary about it. Each successive villain is written with logical reasoning why they are more powerful than the last villain. It's not just because they say so, it's common sense. GT tossed that aside.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:46 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:38 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:31 am
MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:42 am That's the problem, there was no "expository dialogue" to indicate how the GT villains could in any way measure up to Boo. Just "this guy is stronger".
And how do we know Buu is the strongest? Because they say "Whoa, he's stronger than anyone we've ever seen!" Just like they said that about everyone since Vegeta. We're supposed to believe that because they say so. This situations are no different. The lines we draw in the sand of what we will buy are arbitrary. That's fine, we just need to acknowledge that.
We understand that Boo is stronger because we are told who and what he is. Kaioshin gives us his backstory so that it makes sense logically to the audience why this guy is so much stronger than anybody else. This did not happen with Rilld in GT.

There's nothing arbitrary about it. Each successive villain is written with logical reasoning why they are more powerful than the last villain. It's not just because they say so, it's common sense. GT tossed that aside.
How is any of this common sense? It's made up fantasy BS and you've drawn the most utterly arbitrary line I've ever seen.

Rildo did get a story - he's the leader of a machine mutant army created by Dr. Mu with the intention of getting energy for Baby.

The logic of why Buu is stronger than everyone else - because Toriyama wrote it so. After Muten Roshi destroys the moon in the second arc, it becomes pretty much impossible beyond mere exposition to convey any sense escalation. We just have to buy into the cyborgs being stronger than Freeza who was exponentially stronger than Vegeta. In all cases how do we know they're stronger? The characters say so.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:37 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:46 pm How is any of this common sense? It's made up fantasy BS and you've drawn the most utterly arbitrary line I've ever seen.
Fantasy storytelling can and does utilize logic and common sense. Just because something is fantasy doesn't mean the audience is expected to throw out all reason.

ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:46 pm Rildo did get a story - he's the leader of a machine mutant army created by Dr. Mu with the intention of getting energy for Baby.
And that story tells us nothing of why he's somehow stronger than Majin Boo. What is it about the machine mutants and Rildo that makes them so powerful? Either there has to be some explanation or there has to be some common sense, and there's neither here.

ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:46 pm The logic of why Buu is stronger than everyone else - because Toriyama wrote it so. After Muten Roshi destroys the moon in the second arc, it becomes pretty much impossible beyond mere exposition to convey any sense escalation. We just have to buy into the cyborgs being stronger than Freeza who was exponentially stronger than Vegeta. In all cases how do we know they're stronger? The characters say so.
Roshi and the moon was early gag fare and not really indicative of any sense of escalation.

Being told they are stronger is one thing, making it believable is another. Logic is more than just simply telling us someone is stronger, they have to explain *why* this person is stronger. Either with an explicit explanation or with implicit writing where the audience uses common sense.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:02 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:37 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:46 pm How is any of this common sense? It's made up fantasy BS and you've drawn the most utterly arbitrary line I've ever seen.
Fantasy storytelling can and does utilize logic and common sense. Just because something is fantasy doesn't mean the audience is expected to throw out all reason.
You're making it sound like Toriyama is Brandon Sanderson. The logic in Dragon Ball has never been this airtight or specific. We're talking about a guy who forgot about one of his own characters here.

You then pointed out that the Z movies had no logic because Toriyama didn't write them. But when I mentioned Broly being so strong in Super: Broly, you said you can forgive Toei because he is a legacy character. You're contradicting yourself at this point.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:27 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:02 pm You then pointed out that the Z movies had no logic because Toriyama didn't write them. But when I mentioned Broly being so strong in Super: Broly, you said you can forgive Toei because he is a legacy character. You're contradicting yourself at this point.
It's because of the Z-movie *format* that they have no logic. Being vacation festival side stories and all. The fact that Toriyama wasn't involved was just about why GT turned out like it did, with Toei possibly applying their movie/filler style writing.

Again, I can forgive Super material because with a 20 plus year gap I'm not expecting as much logic and consistency, especially for a one-off film featuring Brolli. It's not so much about whether or not Super is logical, it's about GT being so illogical with regards to Rildo and the others.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:45 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:27 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:02 pm You then pointed out that the Z movies had no logic because Toriyama didn't write them. But when I mentioned Broly being so strong in Super: Broly, you said you can forgive Toei because he is a legacy character. You're contradicting yourself at this point.
It's because of the Z-movie *format* that they have no logic. Being vacation festival side stories and all. The fact that Toriyama wasn't involved was just about why GT turned out like it did, with Toei possibly applying their movie/filler style writing.

Again, I can forgive Super material because with a 20 plus year gap I'm not expecting as much logic and consistency, especially for a one-off film featuring Brolli. It's not so much about whether or not Super is logical, it's about GT being so illogical with regards to Rildo and the others.
So because a film comes out 20+ years later, the logic and consistency you claim to care so much about goes out the window? I'm genuinely trying to understand this. Broly may be a one-off film, but it's also clearly a continuation from the Super anime/manga.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:41 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:45 pm So because a film comes out 20+ years later, the logic and consistency you claim to care so much about goes out the window?
Yeah. If a series ends and then they do a revival twenty years later, I'm not too hung up over a few holes in logic now and then. Yes, it's good that the Super anime made the effort to give logical explanations, but it's not exactly something I would demand from it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:02 am

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:41 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:45 pm So because a film comes out 20+ years later, the logic and consistency you claim to care so much about goes out the window?
Yeah. If a series ends and then they do a revival twenty years later, I'm not too hung up over a few holes in logic now and then. Yes, it's good that the Super anime made the effort to give logical explanations, but it's not exactly something I would demand from it.
And you still haven't said what these were.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:46 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:02 am
MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:41 am Yeah. If a series ends and then they do a revival twenty years later, I'm not too hung up over a few holes in logic now and then. Yes, it's good that the Super anime made the effort to give logical explanations, but it's not exactly something I would demand from it.
And you still haven't said what these were.
I did. It was the villains being gods and warriors from other universes.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:17 am

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:46 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:02 am
MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:41 am Yeah. If a series ends and then they do a revival twenty years later, I'm not too hung up over a few holes in logic now and then. Yes, it's good that the Super anime made the effort to give logical explanations, but it's not exactly something I would demand from it.
And you still haven't said what these were.
I did. It was the villains being gods and warriors from other universes.
Broly isn't from another universe. And being from another universe isn't any more or less of an "anything goes" than the rest of the franchise. There's nothing in the manga or anime of Super stating "Being from Universe 6 means it's more likely that a Pooh Bear or a robot can be stronger than Majin Boo than it is in Universe 7," that's just your own conjecture. Anyway, you've made it clear enough that you change your criteria/logic depending on what series it is. That's your prerogative, but it's very apparent.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Skar » Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:35 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:38 pmWe understand that Boo is stronger because we are told who and what he is. Kaioshin gives us his backstory so that it makes sense logically to the audience why this guy is so much stronger than anybody else. This did not happen with Rilld in GT.

There's nothing arbitrary about it. Each successive villain is written with logical reasoning why they are more powerful than the last villain. It's not just because they say so, it's common sense. GT tossed that aside.
I wasn't a fan of Rildo mainly because he didn't really need to be stronger than Buu. If we're being fair, an alien scientist working for decades to build a robot stronger than Buu is more believable than some of the powerups we've had in DBS.

Stronger gods like Beerus and Whis is a natural progression but needing God ki to attain this level of power went out the window the following movie. It makes sense why Toppo was so powerful because he was another mortal who obtained God ki like all the GoDs but the only explanation for characters like Freeza and 17 is that they're just prodigies. It's not really consistent with prodigies in DBZ since Gohan and Uub needed to be trained by Goku to control their power and it wasn't just basic training on their own.

I can give Hit and Jiren a pass because we don't know what they've done and could've been training for hundreds of years. I don't mind Broly either because he's not just another prodigy who out-trained everyone. His power rose on its own when he was angry but training with Goku is probably necessary to help him control it so that he wouldn't be a mindless berserker.

The Shadow Dragons I always thought were a little extreme though. Shenron was killed by King Piccolo so it could've used a better explanation how he inadvertently spawned some dragons stronger than Buu. How they came to exist could've also used some work although I thought the idea was a fitting end to the series.

Overall, I did prefer the direction that BoG went but I think it would've helped if all the super powerful mortals after that also had to obtain God ki like Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:21 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:17 am There's nothing in the manga or anime of Super stating "Being from Universe 6 means it's more likely that a Pooh Bear or a robot can be stronger than Majin Boo than it is in Universe 7," that's just your own conjecture.
You're right, there's nothing stating that in the series because it's common sense. It's only logical that ordinary beings from alternate universes might be powerful enough to surpass Majin Boo. That's just how alternate realities work. It's something the audience doesn't necessarily have to be told.

Just like they don't have to be told that someone like Freeza can be surpassed by a robot or cyborg. The audience understands how robots and science works.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:50 am

You keep using terms like "common sense" and it's silly. None of this is "common sense". How is it common sense that a lone mad scientist is able to create a machine stronger than a Super Saiyan who he didn't even know existed? In the end, the logic is simply "because that's how Toriyama wrote it that way."
You're right, there's nothing stating that in the series because it's common sense.
Stop using that term. That's not what that means.
That's just how alternate realities work.
They work however a writer wants them to work.

What is the explanation for Buu's incredible strength?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:05 am

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:21 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:17 am There's nothing in the manga or anime of Super stating "Being from Universe 6 means it's more likely that a Pooh Bear or a robot can be stronger than Majin Boo than it is in Universe 7," that's just your own conjecture.
You're right, there's nothing stating that in the series because it's common senseIt's only logical that ordinary beings from alternate universes might be powerful enough to surpass Majin Boo. That's just how alternate realities work. It's something the audience doesn't necessarily have to be told.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:18 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:49 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:24 pm <snip>
It's not just about fighting techniques. It's about the spirit of martial arts. How do Goku and Bardock align or differ in their respective philosophies? How does this reflect their personalities and outlooks on life? Plus, even with the power gaps, there are always fighting methods that can be taught to one another. As for them keeping up with the others, well if Super can have Roshi and them fighting together then certainly Dock and King can contribute. I'm not saying it would be believable, just doable for Super.

King Vegeta probably could not have foreseen his son forming *this* kind of family, nor his life on Earth. That's a lot Vegeta can teach him. Yeah maybe Vegeta is beyond the old Saiyan ways and would be annoyed, but that's where the conflict and drama comes in. Plus, you never know what kind of secrets the King may have been hiding. It could be a good opportunity for some juicy reveals.
For Goku & Bardock : Bardock's fighting philosophy is almost no different than Vegeta's and most other saiyans in general, that being "fight to kill and brag about it" and seeing as though we are still seeing the Goku/Vegeta philosophy dynamic play out to this very day, we dont need Bardock added to the mix.

For Vegeta and The King : King Vegeta also didnt foresee Freeza destroying him and his entire planet either but it happened. Prince Vegeta also seems confident in anything he discloses about Saiyan culture and politics so I doubt there's anything substantial that his father can teach him, especially considering that King Vegeta died believing that Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God were just myths.


On Rildo being stronger than Boo : What gives Bibidi more credibility as a sorcerer that Dr.Myuu or Baby for that matter don't seem to have as space alien technological innovators? Remember Planet M2, Dr.Myuu, all that stuff was orchestrated by Baby who is the parasitic consciousness of the Tsufurian King. The Tsufurians had the reputation of being highly technologically advanced, so much so that they were able to give the saiyans some trouble. So if the saiyans can become strong enough to beat Boo, why can't the Tsufurians do the same with their tech?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:30 am

Why does anyone try to apply internal logic to power scaling in Dragon Ball? The characters are as strong as they need to be. That’s all there is to it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:02 pm

I don't have a problem with the previous villain being surpassed, no matter who they are, I also don't think we need to KNOW EXACTLY how that happens.

Technology is always a good answer, and M2's is supposed to be much more developed than Earth's. The entire planet is a machine and the scope of their tech is never established, they can be as developed as the plot needs it to be. It's developed enough to exit hell, so...

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:35 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:21 am You're right, there's nothing stating that in the series because it's common sense. It's only logical that ordinary beings from alternate universes might be powerful enough to surpass Majin Boo. That's just how alternate realities work. It's something the audience doesn't necessarily have to be told.

Just like they don't have to be told that someone like Freeza can be surpassed by a robot or cyborg. The audience understands how robots and science works.
Except that it's not common sense at all, it's your own conjecture. I read superhero comics from time to time and have read about alternate universes and realities. No, it is not always or even usually a component that the rules work differently or that the alternate universe is naturally stronger. And if it was, the writers would state so because they would want the reader to know this, not merely assume it. More often than not, the rules work exactly the same in the alternate universe.
I wasn't a fan of Rildo mainly because he didn't really need to be stronger than Buu. If we're being fair, an alien scientist working for decades to build a robot stronger than Buu is more believable than some of the powerups we've had in DBS.
Maybe not, but the line from Goku was just there to show how far he had come since EoZ, nothing more to it, really.
I can give Hit and Jiren a pass because we don't know what they've done and could've been training for hundreds of years. I don't mind Broly either because he's not just another prodigy who out-trained everyone. His power rose on its own when he was angry but training with Goku is probably necessary to help him control it so that he wouldn't be a mindless berserker.
I'm also fine with this. I just brought up the Broly/Jiren examples to show why it's not necessarily any more logical than scientists creating a being like Rildo. They're all subject to have their power by however the writer sees fit, and Dragon Ball has demonstrated over and over again that it's open to doing this by whatever means. I don't even have a huge issue with natural prodigies within this series tbh.
Why does anyone try to apply internal logic to power scaling in Dragon Ball? The characters are as strong as they need to be. That’s all there is to it.
Precisely. I mean I can understand enjoying speculating for fun, but people act like Dragon Ball has these rigid rules, which it has never abided by.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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