Unpopular DB opinions

[WittyUsername]

That's like betting Rocky wouldn't defeat Clubber Lang.

Beerus did defeat Goku...

But you knew he wasn't actually going to destroy the world. He lost the battle but achieved his goal. No way the story is going to end with Goku and his universe being blinked out of existence.

I’m pretty sure no one ever assumed that Goku and friends would be permanently erased. From what I remember, the people who were wondering if Universe 6 would come out on top also believed that the Super Dragon Balls would likely be used to bring everyone back, or that the Zen-Ohs would ultimately change their minds about erasing everyone.

[ABED]

That's even more schmuck bait than the ending already is. The audience already knows Goku and his friends survive, why go through the pretense of having them all die when we know they are alive in the future?

[Matches Malone]

But you knew he wasn't actually going to destroy the world. He lost the battle but achieved his goal. No way the story is going to end with Goku and his universe being blinked out of existence.

It was still an unexpected ending, as not only did Goku lose, he barely landed any blows on Beerus. That never happened in Z's previous movies or within the original manga. This was the very first time we got a villain who was in control the entire time.

[ABED]

But you knew he wasn't actually going to destroy the world. He lost the battle but achieved his goal. No way the story is going to end with Goku and his universe being blinked out of existence.

It was still an unexpected ending, as not only did Goku lose, he barely landed any blows on Beerus. That never happened in Z's previous movies or within the original manga. This was the very first time we got a villain who was in control the entire time.

But the value of it is not the shock of Goku losing. It goes to the heart of Goku's story and the theme of the show. There are always more mountains to climb.

Goku has lost before. Ultimately Vegeta was defeated but Goku unequivocally loses the battle against Vegeta. I think people place way too much value on shock and not enough on concepts like theme and payoff.

[Skar]

Why does anyone care if I do or don't?

The answer to this question is literally in the part of the comment you quoted: "so they get a notification". If someone doesn't login for a while and that thread has several pages worth of new comments, they might miss a response. I'm pretty sure it's a reason why this feature exists on forums.

[ABED]

Why does anyone care if I do or don't?

The answer to this question is literally in the part of the comment you quoted: "so they get a notification". If someone doesn't login for a while and that thread has several pages worth of new comments, they might miss a response. I'm pretty sure it's a reason why this feature exists on forums.

That's not an answer to the question I asked. Why does anyone care if they do or don't get the notification? This seems a point of contention for a number of people to the point where someone I wasn't even responding to has commented on it.

It's a nice tool, but that's all it is, a tool. You clearly had no problem seeing the response. And I often don't include it for expediency.

[WittyUsername]

I think the people who expected a team other than Universe 7 to win the tournament thought so because Toriyama has a reputation for some unconventional/subversive narrative decisions, and Super in particular had a number of those up to that point. Apart from Beerus beating Goku, the Future Trunks arc also has a pretty unusual conclusion. Plus, with the exception of the 23rd Budokai, the tournament arcs in general have a tendency to end with Goku losing. Of course, I suppose the fact that #17 is the last person standing could be considered to be a subversive moment in its own right.

[Skar]

That's not an answer to the question I asked. Why does anyone care if they do or don't get the notification?

Well you did ask "Why does anyone care if I do or don't?" so I assumed you meant why does anyone care if you do or don't tag them.

It's a nice tool, but that's all it is, a tool. You clearly had no problem seeing the response. And I often don't include it for expediency.

Yes because I happened to login the following day and there weren't comments in the thread. If there was more activity and I didn't login a few days or longer then I might've missed it. No offense but you're the first person I've seen who has taken issue to this. All I said was that it helps as in it was a recommendation to ensure the person you're replying to sees your comment. If you feel it's too much work or not worth the effort then you're free not to use it.

[Psajdak]

I think the people who expected a team other than Universe 7 to win the tournament thought so because Toriyama has a reputation for some unconventional/subversive narrative decisions, and Super in particular had a number of those up to that point. Apart from Beerus beating Goku, the Future Trunks arc also has a pretty unusual conclusion. Plus, with the exception of the 23rd Budokai, the tournament arcs in general have a tendency to end with Goku losing. Of course, I suppose the fact that #17 is the last person standing could be considered to be a subversive moment in its own right.

From my point of view the point of Universe 7 winning wasn't to show their strength (although, they did that too during the tournament itself), but simply to impress everyone by having someone from such a low ranking Universe wish for something selfless, when they could have wished for anything they wanted - yeah, there was that little thing with Zeno erasing all of the participating Universes if selfish wish was made, but 17 didn't know that yet.

...

As for 17 being the last one standing out of all people, I can't specifically point out where else I saw similar things happen, in other series, but if I had to guess, I believe that was intentionally done as one of the ways to bring 17 closer to Goku, and rest of the cast, and making him one of them for real.
Him being the one who gets to have his wish granted was in a way sign of trust, and acceptance.

It is hard to explain, but if I had to think of one similar example, it would have been how in Buu saga 18 ends up married with Kuririn, and being pretty much accepted by everyone else.

[ABED]

I think the people who expected a team other than Universe 7 to win the tournament thought so because Toriyama has a reputation for some unconventional/subversive narrative decisions, and Super in particular had a number of those up to that point. Apart from Beerus beating Goku, the Future Trunks arc also has a pretty unusual conclusion. Plus, with the exception of the 23rd Budokai, the tournament arcs in general have a tendency to end with Goku losing. Of course, I suppose the fact that #17 is the last person standing could be considered to be a subversive moment in its own right.

He lost because it was building up to him winning. It wasn't just having him lose for the sake of losing or even just to subvert expectations. He was at the beginning of a serialized story and having him win the first time out wouldn't be nearly as cathartic as winning down the road.

[Matches Malone]

It goes to the heart of Goku's story and the theme of the show. There are always more mountains to climb. Goku has lost before.

In the past he'd either lose and find a way to win during a rematch or end his fight in a tie. With Beerus however, there was no coming back from it, everything he tried backfired and he was forced to admit defeat. I know it ties back into the theme of there always being someone stronger, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a surprise, especially compared to Z's older movies where he always won.

[LoganForkHands73]

The overall outcome of the tournament, i.e. the restoration of all erased universes, was the least important aspect of the ending. It was already a foregone conclusion by the time characters started openly discussing their intentions to revive other universes long before 131. What mattered was the how and who. Android 17 may have seemed like an offbeat choice to be the last man standing, but it was a logical conclusion that completed his arc, which was all about getting out of his machine-liked apathy. He goes from being uncaring about the fates of universes to saving all of them. And ultimately, he still gets his coveted cruiser. However, almost any of the major characters could have been in that position to equal effect, so I'd say there was definitely an element of subversion and unpredictability since hardly anyone expected 17 specifically to win.

But even then, Universe 7 wasn't a given lock for victory, which is another point for why the Rocky vs. Clubber Lang comparison is less than fitting. As others have already stated, the heroes losing in some way isn't totally unprecedented. Jiren could have easily been the winner in the end - after seeing the valour of his opponents and the unwavering trust from his team, he ultimately makes the selfless choice. That final battle between him, Goku, Freeza and 17 establishes Jiren's change when he grins as they come at him.

Universe 6 winning is a reach in hindsight, but in the speculation leading up to the arc, it's easy to see why people genuinely believed they had a chance of winning since they were the second most focused on universe (and still are, to an extent) after U7, especially in anime filler where Hit got a whole mini-arc to himself just before the Tournament of Power started. The advertising hyped up the introduction of two powerful new Saiyan women and Hit of course proved himself to be a frightening foe with an established relationship with Goku.

Although the "Hit's Clone" fan theory is infamously stupid, the people who were genuinely holding out for it clearly liked his character but were overly desperate to see him win. Alas, he was always destined to act as the token power-measuring stick against Jiren, a la Dabura vs. Buu.

[ABED]

It goes to the heart of Goku's story and the theme of the show. There are always more mountains to climb. Goku has lost before.

In the past he'd either lose and find a way to win during a rematch or end his fight in a tie. With Beerus however, there was no coming back from it, everything he tried backfired and he was forced to admit defeat. I know it ties back into the theme of there always being someone stronger, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a surprise, especially compared to Z's older movies where he always won.

It wasn't just a subversion for the sake of a subversion. And he might have lost the fight but he achieved his goal. I've grown tired of fake out deaths. It's schmuck bait, plain and simple. We know it won't stick, so there's no damn point to having U7 lose.

Them losing isn't unprecedented but there has to be a lesson learned in all of it, otherwise it's as dumb as most fake out deaths are.

And if you are saying there's precedent in DB, how shocking could it really be to have them lose?

[SupremeKai25]

In hindsight I have found new appreciation for the ending of the ToP arc. I really believed that Freeza would betray his team to get the Super Dragon Balls, because he said earlier in the arc that he wanted to dethrone the gods, so when he saved Goku from elimination and actually came in clutch at the end against Jiren I was pleasantly surprised. I was also surprised that Android 17 survived the explosion, I suppose him being a rugged and resourceful ranger helped him a lot. 17's survival was actually even more surprising than his victory at the end, because writing-wise his death scene was so moving for many people that it didn't even cross my mind that it was a jebait.

[Psajdak]

Saiyan arc is something insanely iconic, and amazing.

[MasenkoHA]

Saiyan arc is something insanely iconic, and amazing.

Is this unpopular? The Saiyan arc is usually well regarded. It’s the arcs after Namek that are more polarizing.

[Xeogran]

17's survival was actually even more surprising than his victory at the end, because writing-wise his death scene was so moving for many people that it didn't even cross my mind that it was a jebait.

I can understand it, but I knew something was fishy the moment they stopped showing Zeno's GodPads the moment 17 has "died". Funny enough it made for a plot hole since he should be crossed off if everyone truly believed he died.

EDIT: Actually they showed it, but cropped so both 17 and Freeza weren't visible on the screen:

Spoiler:

Quite suspicious, wasn't it?

[Noah]

I absolutely love recognizable legendary seiyu (especially those affiliated with Aoni) from Dragon Ball, but I can't help but think that if Dragon Ball is to have any future, it should be rebooted from the beginning, with new (younger) cast, different direction, and overall updated feel of the series, so to speak.

Well, unfortunate to you (and me), Toei don't care much about original Dragon Ball, so a reboot from the beginning would not be possible, so if we were to get something close to Digimon (2020), it would start from Z (as always).

[WittyUsername]

I absolutely love recognizable legendary seiyu (especially those affiliated with Aoni) from Dragon Ball, but I can't help but think that if Dragon Ball is to have any future, it should be rebooted from the beginning, with new (younger) cast, different direction, and overall updated feel of the series, so to speak.

Well, unfortunate to you (and me), Toei don't care much about original Dragon Ball, so a reboot from the beginning would not be possible, so if we were to get something close to Digimon (2020), it would start from Z (as always).

That’s basically what Kai was.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I absolutely love recognizable legendary seiyu (especially those affiliated with Aoni) from Dragon Ball, but I can't help but think that if Dragon Ball is to have any future, it should be rebooted from the beginning, with new (younger) cast, different direction, and overall updated feel of the series, so to speak.

Well, unfortunate to you (and me), Toei don't care much about original Dragon Ball, so a reboot from the beginning would not be possible, so if we were to get something close to Digimon (2020), it would start from Z (as always).

That’s basically what Kai was.

If they were to make a rebooted version of the series at some point in the future, i'd bet that there would be at best a basic abbreviated cliff notes style recap of the original series at the start just like Kai ep 1. Seriously, it pains me to see the OG series sat off to the sidelines so much because in terms of storyline both DB and DBZ are in reality part of one story with the same characters which the original manga presents, they are not two separate things that are heavily different from each other with exception of the first two arcs of DB.