Unpopular DB opinions

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Scsigs
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:37 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:24 pm Mood whiplash isn't really a thing in DB, or at least not a negative one. It's always mixed tones, even in the most dire of moments and for anyone thinking Goku and Vegeta always take fights for the fate of the world seriously, I implore you to remember that Goku cared more about winning the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai than he did the fate of the world.

I don't think mood whiplash is a bad thing. In fact, it's often the mix of comedy and drama that allows more earnest moments to land. Humor is a wonderful thing.
I wanna disagree with that "mood whiplash isn't a thing in DB, or at least not a negative one" bit.

First of all, if you're arguing that it helps with some of the comedy, then it's definitely a thing that's there in the writing & story-telling. And, yeah, I can name some of my favorite jokes in movies & TV that use mood whiplash as a catalyst for them. However, to say it's fine all the time, or that it always happens in the pursuit of comedy is clearly ignoring that it happens because of fast shifts in stories that make it jarring & not always are they funny. If anything, they're frustrating.

Second, while I can give that some comedy works really well with that, when a story needs to be serious, generally you don't break tone unless it's supposed to be a farce. Plus, mood whiplash can work in the opposite direction as well. If you're supposed to find a moment funny, but then you're told by the writing that it's then supposed to just get serious, it can feel just as, if not more jarring. Generally, this kind is reserved for making a story more serious. The Buu Saga, however, features way too much of both switching back & forth & not all of it's on purpose. We know not everything Toriyama did when he wrote the manga was on purpose as well, as he generally wrote on the fly rather than having anything really mapped out. Thus, I don't know if you can say it's not a problem. Super's anime adaptation as well, as, while it doesn't use mood whiplash for comedy that often, it will use it for creating drama & tension. Sometimes it's needed, sometimes it's by accident or just not thought through.
When it happens in the Buu Saga, I can give you that it's for helping some of the comedy, but what about when it's not for comedy? Because some of the mood whiplash comes from when Toriyama forces the plot along. 1 I can remember off the top of my head is when Super Buu reverts to a form more similar to his original form, but with a more Piccolo influence. Goku immediately acts like it's no big deal, despite the fact that both he & Gohan are hurt & lacking energy & the fact that Buu's the most powerful & dangerous enemy they've come across in a while. While I can get him having a minor relieved feeling, he should still have his guard up & not be so nonchalant. See, I get Goku being like that if he's just as strong, if not stronger, than his enemy, but not that situation. That kind of shit creates a dissonance. There's another moment later with Vegeta also acting like this when Super Buu turns into Kid Buu, despite the fact that they should just be confused at best rather than confident. Especially Vegeta, who's not only smarter than Goku, but is someone who also faced Buu with the intent of trying to kill him, failed, & should know that there's more to him than what meets the eye by then. Especially when they realize his power's just going up rather than down. They sense energy whether they want to or not, so that should've been one of the first things that happened.
This is what I mean by whiplash. It's characters acting out of character, or not reacting to the situation as you'd expect them to. The situation's tone is serious, so it SHOULD be more serious. If it was comedic, the tone would be more apparent & the stuff I listed wouldn't feel so jarring. The problems stem from Toriyama trying to influence more overt comedy than he'd done in years & not mixing it in right with the more seriousness the story had been using for years at that point. You either need a mostly serious story with comedy sprinkled in, or you need a more lighthearted story that can have some serious moments, but is more fitting for comedy. You can't have both at once fighting for control of the tone. Otherwise, it just becomes a jarring mess. The original cut of the Z anime didn't help with this, where the writers threw in filler scenes that were just too try-hard for the comedy. I'm thankful Super's jarring problems stem mostly from characters being flanderized in certain ways rather than seriously jarring inconsistencies in tone. I'm not saying the storytelling in Super doesn't have problems, as it does, but it has less problems than Buu's storytelling.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:39 am

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:43 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:37 am
Krillin1994 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 am I would also say that the likes of Shin not intervening in Frieza as an example led to Goku becoming SS and reaching levels of strength that ended up saving the universe from Buu which Shin wouldn’t have been able to do. So maybe that’s the whole unknown of standing back and taking a passive role.
If the Gods were active and did their job then Buu wouldn't have been awakened in the first place, hell if Goku and Vegeta never fought in Super Saiyan mode then Babidi would have never gotten enough energy to awaken Buu.
What is their job? It's incredibly vague. They seem to take a very hands off approach by their nature.
It's not vague at all. They got the power to erase anything, so they have to use that power to erase threats that endanger the balance of life (like Majin Buu, who wanted to destroy everything) as well as threats to the Gods (like Majin Buu and Moro). Beerus never did any of that because he's lazy and incompetent.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:18 pm

Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:37 pm
ABED wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:24 pm Mood whiplash isn't really a thing in DB, or at least not a negative one. It's always mixed tones, even in the most dire of moments and for anyone thinking Goku and Vegeta always take fights for the fate of the world seriously, I implore you to remember that Goku cared more about winning the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai than he did the fate of the world.

I don't think mood whiplash is a bad thing. In fact, it's often the mix of comedy and drama that allows more earnest moments to land. Humor is a wonderful thing.
I wanna disagree with that "mood whiplash isn't a thing in DB, or at least not a negative one" bit.

First of all, if you're arguing that it helps with some of the comedy, then it's definitely a thing that's there in the writing & story-telling. And, yeah, I can name some of my favorite jokes in movies & TV that use mood whiplash as a catalyst for them. However, to say it's fine all the time, or that it always happens in the pursuit of comedy is clearly ignoring that it happens because of fast shifts in stories that make it jarring & not always are they funny. If anything, they're frustrating.

Second, while I can give that some comedy works really well with that, when a story needs to be serious, generally you don't break tone unless it's supposed to be a farce. Plus, mood whiplash can work in the opposite direction as well. If you're supposed to find a moment funny, but then you're told by the writing that it's then supposed to just get serious, it can feel just as, if not more jarring. Generally, this kind is reserved for making a story more serious. The Buu Saga, however, features way too much of both switching back & forth & not all of it's on purpose. We know not everything Toriyama did when he wrote the manga was on purpose as well, as he generally wrote on the fly rather than having anything really mapped out. Thus, I don't know if you can say it's not a problem. Super's anime adaptation as well, as, while it doesn't use mood whiplash for comedy that often, it will use it for creating drama & tension. Sometimes it's needed, sometimes it's by accident or just not thought through.
When it happens in the Buu Saga, I can give you that it's for helping some of the comedy, but what about when it's not for comedy? Because some of the mood whiplash comes from when Toriyama forces the plot along. 1 I can remember off the top of my head is when Super Buu reverts to a form more similar to his original form, but with a more Piccolo influence. Goku immediately acts like it's no big deal, despite the fact that both he & Gohan are hurt & lacking energy & the fact that Buu's the most powerful & dangerous enemy they've come across in a while. While I can get him having a minor relieved feeling, he should still have his guard up & not be so nonchalant. See, I get Goku being like that if he's just as strong, if not stronger, than his enemy, but not that situation. That kind of shit creates a dissonance. There's another moment later with Vegeta also acting like this when Super Buu turns into Kid Buu, despite the fact that they should just be confused at best rather than confident. Especially Vegeta, who's not only smarter than Goku, but is someone who also faced Buu with the intent of trying to kill him, failed, & should know that there's more to him than what meets the eye by then. Especially when they realize his power's just going up rather than down. They sense energy whether they want to or not, so that should've been one of the first things that happened.
This is what I mean by whiplash. It's characters acting out of character, or not reacting to the situation as you'd expect them to. The situation's tone is serious, so it SHOULD be more serious. If it was comedic, the tone would be more apparent & the stuff I listed wouldn't feel so jarring. The problems stem from Toriyama trying to influence more overt comedy than he'd done in years & not mixing it in right with the more seriousness the story had been using for years at that point. You either need a mostly serious story with comedy sprinkled in, or you need a more lighthearted story that can have some serious moments, but is more fitting for comedy. You can't have both at once fighting for control of the tone. Otherwise, it just becomes a jarring mess. The original cut of the Z anime didn't help with this, where the writers threw in filler scenes that were just too try-hard for the comedy. I'm thankful Super's jarring problems stem mostly from characters being flanderized in certain ways rather than seriously jarring inconsistencies in tone. I'm not saying the storytelling in Super doesn't have problems, as it does, but it has less problems than Buu's storytelling.
I didn't say it works all the time, but mixing tones works really well and usually much better than a singular tone, especially for over the top goofy stuff like Dragon Ball. There's only so much fighting for the sake of the UNIVERSE I can take before I roll my eyes. Taking the piss out of a moment or situation can help people buy into the fantasy easier than just yelling at them to take it seriously. For crying out loud, the final villain is a big pink taffy monster.

And you have to draw a big distinction what you think the characters SHOULD do and what they WOULD do. Goku placed more importance on winning a tournament than he did on the fate of the world. Not taking a battle for the sake of the universe is well within his wheelhouse.

The best storytellers can shift tones on at the drop of a hat. It's often the contrast that works so well. The goofiness of the Ginyu Force works so damn well in the Freeza arc. It doesn't undercut their threat. One of my favorite movies is Heat. It isn't a laugh riot movie, but one of my favorite scenes is when Pacino's character is confronted with his wife's affair. It's heartbreaking and at the end he yells at the guy sleeping with her that he gets to sleep with her but he doesn't get to watch his TV! It's so damn funny because it's unexpected and petty, but it works because it doesn't break you out of the scene. It's in character and I think that's the key. Goku and Vegeta are well within character to put the love of battle above the immediate issue of saving the universe.

Sometimes a story that takes itself too seriously only serves to hit the audience over the head with "This is serious, take it serious!" and has the opposite effect.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by evirus » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:37 am

More video game related but: I liked Budokai 2’s board game style story mode over 3’s overworld. The only thing it was missing was a 2 player mode for it

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TobyS » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:49 am

evirus wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:37 am More video game related but: I liked Budokai 2’s board game style story mode over 3’s overworld. The only thing it was missing was a 2 player mode for it
I liked how you could bring people so like Goku is on the board and you can bring Tenshinhan and Yamcha along.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:55 am

in concept i definitely prefer but god, you have to do it like 3 times and have to do it right to unlock like the vast majority of characters. budokai 3 it's been a while but as far as i remember you really only need to play goku's and vegeta's stories multiple times to unlock stuff, which isn't great but even then it takes way less time to beat goku's story mode twice then it does to beat budokai's 2s one time.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by BWri » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:03 pm

TobyS wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:49 am
evirus wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:37 am More video game related but: I liked Budokai 2’s board game style story mode over 3’s overworld. The only thing it was missing was a 2 player mode for it
I liked how you could bring people so like Goku is on the board and you can bring Tenshinhan and Yamcha along.
I liked it a lot. I really wish the game was included in the HD collection. It's the only reason I didn't buy it. Though, I do like how each game had it's own take on the story. I probably prefer how the first game did it, but it would have been boring to repeat that with each game.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:17 am

evirus wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:37 am More video game related but: I liked Budokai 2’s board game style story mode over 3’s overworld. The only thing it was missing was a 2 player mode for it.
I mean, if you chose what characters were whose, that's a way you could do 2-player.
I agree. Budokai 2's story mode is where the game shines outside of the additions & improvements on the combat. I had a GameCube & it was definitely 1 of my top games I ever played on it. Mario Kart Double Dash, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Budokai 2, & a few others here & there. It was a lot of fun.
TobyS wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:49 am I liked how you could bring people so like Goku is on the board and you can bring Tenshinhan and Yamcha along.
The only really bad thing I found about Budokai 2's story is that you couldn't use fusion skills outside of the required story segments. I get maybe on a first playthrough & maybe Gotenks & Vegetto, but not Tiencha & Gokule. It's weird like that.
Soppa Saia People wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:55 am in concept i definitely prefer but god, you have to do it like 3 times and have to do it right to unlock like the vast majority of characters. budokai 3 it's been a while but as far as i remember you really only need to play goku's and vegeta's stories multiple times to unlock stuff, which isn't great but even then it takes way less time to beat goku's story mode twice then it does to beat budokai's 2s one time.
I mean, if you were playing on PS2 & knew the cheat to getting capsules for free in the item shop, then you don't have to do it more than once. Unfortunately, the GameCube version fixed that glitch & I was stuck doing things the old fashioned way. I agree, though, that 3 had less time required for single player, but I always found 2's story mode to be more fun at the end of the day. It didn't make sense most of the time, but if you got the right characters on the board & did the right tricks, then you'd have some fun moments of interactions with them. I do get a chuckle out of the meta jokes still when I rewatch Team Four Star's playthrough. They knew what they were doing. Plus, it mixed things up from the anime, so you didn't know what to expect going in. 3's story modes were VERY paint-by-numbers with adapting the original story. To the point where segments were only locked to the characters who experienced them.
I think if you could unlock everything the first time around in 2's story mode, then it wouldn't be that bad. The good thing about it is that you can go into it with every skill you unlock & blaze through it when you have all of the best ones equipped. So it's not all bad. I just wish the glitch that let you get all the capsules for free from the shop wasn't fixed in the GC version. When my memory card had to be reformatted several years ago, I lost the save data & had to restart it from scratch. Not fun when I already did all that shit years ago & it gets tedious.
BWri wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:03 pm I liked it a lot. I really wish the game was included in the HD collection. It's the only reason I didn't buy it. Though, I do like how each game had its own take on the story. I probably prefer how the first game did it, but it would have been boring to repeat that with each game.
I really wish it'd been included there too. I was one of the people who definitely was confused & sad that it never got included. It being the underrated black sheep of the series shouldn't be the reason it didn't get included. I hope that Bandai & Dimps rerelease it on the new consoles & PC with it included. Hell, if Dimps could at all include the content from the 2 V version of the game with Kuriza, the other extra skins, & the other extra content to allow more people to play that extremely rare version of the game, I'd be extremely happy. I bet people would jump (HA!) at the chance to play it too if those were included. It'd also allow people who appreciate what it did well to play it again in HD. Since Dimps made some small tweaks to Budokai 1 to make it better, I think they could do the same for 2 to help it out.
In terms of how the first game did it, it was ambitious for the time, but it's now extremely dated & eclipsed by other games in the franchise. I liked it when I was a kid, but it's too archaic for me to want to go back to. Now, it's just a case of, "I appreciate it for the steps it took at the time, but now we have games that did most things better." Its own sequels did the combat better & games like Kakarot did the story mode better. If both of those elements were combined into a new Budokai, I think we'd have the ultimate Budokai game. One that could please most to all sections of the fanbase. But, that seems to be aa pipe dream at this point.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:45 am

I think super is fairly ok in depicting Goku's childishness. I think the complains that he’s too immature compared to Cell and Buu saga forget one thing about those arcs: the Cell saga is him realizing a version of himself and everyone have really died and then Gohan would suffer easily if he was not more careful .And that everything in Buu saga happened in the span of 2 days and also involves the death of both his sons. in Saiyan and Frieza saga, Gohan was in the brink of death all the time. It’s the urgentness that pushed him to be more mature. Super doesn’t have such direness about it so it’s natural he’s an “idiot” in it, because his main concerns was always a good fight , even in Frieza, Cell and Buu saga. All he cared about is a good fight, until he realized he had to be sensible and smart under EXTREME pressure.

So I think the problem in Super wasn’t Goku’s character himself it’s that the stories are of lower quality to the manga. They are flat and generic, especially Trunks' arc, and don’t push him to be the Goku we expected. Without Gohan nearly dying all the time, and Vegeta being his most valuable and helpful ally unlike Z, Goku is, or allowed to be, just Goku.

Which leads me to my little thought. Goku is underrated as a dad. The Goku in Z is ENTIRELY only more "heroic" and "smart" because his son was in danger.
And Vegeta is underrated as one as well. And not the old "Vegeta is a better dad because he was there unlike Goku" thing. VegeBul (which i think is overrated) as well as his whole character development existed entirely because of (both) Trunks. Even how he stayed when Bulma is near labor, it's not a "Vegebul is the best and Vegeta is the best dad eva" thing, but a "he missed that part of Trunks' life" thing, or how he endured talking good about Frieza for Trunks. Must really brings home what his own father has been through.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:18 pm

Ginyu Tokusentai is an overrated song, and I think the only major reason why it's so popular is because of TFS.
I mean, it's definitely a good song, but it cannot compete with songs like Solid State Scouter or Aitsu wa Son Goku IMHO.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:26 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:18 pm Ginyu Tokusentai is an overrated song, and I think the only major reason why it's so popular is because of TFS.
I mean, it's definitely a good song, but it cannot compete with songs like Solid State Scouter or Aitsu wa Son Goku IMHO.
I don't think many people enjoy that song the same way as other genuinely amazing DBZ songs, its just charming and fun and fitting with the Ginyu force. I feel saying its overrated is incorrect imo

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:28 pm

Mad Swami wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:26 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:18 pm Ginyu Tokusentai is an overrated song, and I think the only major reason why it's so popular is because of TFS.
I mean, it's definitely a good song, but it cannot compete with songs like Solid State Scouter or Aitsu wa Son Goku IMHO.
I don't think many people enjoy that song the same way as other genuinely amazing DBZ songs, its just charming and fun and fitting with the Ginyu force. I feel saying its overrated is incorrect imo
Well when I say it's overrated, I mostly mean that I don't care all that much about it, rather than it is objectively not as good as people say it is.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by BWri » Sat May 01, 2021 5:29 pm

Frieza's best form is form #2. The height, the horns, the menace. He had it all in this form. As much as I like the holy sh** moment of witnessing Final Form for the first time, I love how intimidating Form 2 or Compression 2 turns out to be.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Tue May 04, 2021 11:23 am

I don’t think this is unpopular here, but here goes:

In my opinion, the original Japanese audio for DBZ Movie 5 (Cooler 1) is leagues and bounds superior to the US Funimation version.

I noticed a lot of people really seem to like that heavy metal soundtrack in the original funimation release, but I find the music overly loud and distracting to the point that it drowns out the actions in the movie. I love the fantasy battle Japanese OST, however.

And the script in the Japanese version feels a lot superior to me. It’s still cheesy in a typical DBZ way, but in a different way than 2000s Funimation script is. Plus, though the English voice actors are good and all, I LOVE LOVE LOVE Japanese Cooler’s performance. So menacing and full of confidence. Just enough of Frieza in there to be recognizable, but distinct. Absolutely incredible.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Saiyan Emperor » Fri May 07, 2021 10:00 pm

I still like the Bruce Faulconer score. The original Japanese soundtrack is great but I don't thing the dubbed music is as bad as some fans make it out to be

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TobyS » Sat May 08, 2021 1:13 pm

It super annoys me we haven't seen U12 guys timeline, the unseen timeline, or what happened in Cells timeline after cell left. And I guess any of the double trunks timeline.

Could literally have 4 other shows or ongoing mangas.

Most fans don't seem to care or care more about seeing the other universes in the main timeline.

My headcanon is the Xeno timeline is u12 guys, changed long enough ago to alter the Saiyans evolutionary course (SS4) and the Super esque characters from heroes are maybe from the Unseen timeline...
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PanSimpson » Sat May 08, 2021 4:12 pm

Dragon Ball isn’t that well-written of a series and it’s appeal is mostly due to NOSTALGIA.

Doesn’t mean I still can enjoy it though.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 08, 2021 4:18 pm

PanSimpson wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:12 pm Dragon Ball isn’t that well-written of a series and it’s appeal is mostly due to NOSTALGIA.

Doesn’t mean I still can enjoy it though.
It's appeal today maybe, but there is a lot to genuinely enjoy and is well done that has nothing to do with our memories of it from when we were younger.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Sat May 08, 2021 4:21 pm

PanSimpson wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:12 pm Dragon Ball isn’t that well-written of a series and it’s appeal is mostly due to NOSTALGIA.

Doesn’t mean I still can enjoy it though.
While that is true for most people, I sure as hell had no nostalgic connection to DB when I first properly watched it (second half of RoF two years ago)
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 08, 2021 4:23 pm

PanSimpson wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:12 pm Dragon Ball isn’t that well-written of a series and it’s appeal is mostly due to NOSTALGIA.

Doesn’t mean I still can enjoy it though.
There’s plenty of series far worse written than Dragon Ball that are well loved despite being terrible and being modern and thus not having the nostalgia argument on its side.

This isn’t directly aimed at you but I don’t think anyone is under any delusion that Dragon Ball is equivalent to The Sopranos or The Wire or “insert other critically acclaimed television series” and the whole “Unlike you plebs I see beyond the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia” that makes up like 70 percent of online discussion is so tiresome.

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