Unpopular DB opinions

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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 4:15 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:05 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:48 pm
How was Toei's characterization of Goku better than Toriyama's?
If you compare Toei's DB(Z) Goku to Modern DB's Goku (the most blatantly Toriyama-like version of him), you'll notice that classic Goku is smarter, more competent, more serious (when needed to be), less "poisonious" and has much more grativas to him than modern Goku does.
People have latched onto "poisonous" and I don't think they quite understand what he meant. They also seem to take exception to it. So what if Goku is driven to fight above almost anything else? It's a part of his character and has been since the beginning.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Sun May 19, 2019 4:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:15 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:05 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:48 pm
How was Toei's characterization of Goku better than Toriyama's?
If you compare Toei's DB(Z) Goku to Modern DB's Goku (the most blatantly Toriyama-like version of him), you'll notice that classic Goku is smarter, more competent, more serious (when needed to be), less "poisonious" and has much more grativas to him than modern Goku does.
So what if Goku is driven to fight above almost anything else? It's a part of his character and has been since the beginning.
That's not what I nor Toriyama meant by "poisonous".
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 4:24 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:02 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:43 pm

Contrived in what way?
Pfff... okay.
Need more examples? Or do I need to explain more why this is contrived and forced? This sort of execution of transitional behavior in characters is very recurring in the MCU.

Giving Broly a sad back story is arguably a contrived and clichéd way to bring pathos into the story.
Why?

Why is a sad backstory contrived and cliche? A sad backstory can come in countless different forms. I can agree that certain sad backstories are contrived and cliche (and overused). But why are sad backstories in general contrived and cliche?
I have no problem buying Hawkeye murdering bad guys in absence his family given its been shown they are the reason he does what he does. In the five years since they died, I can absolutely buy that a loner might go over the deep end. It's not like he kills innocent people, so it's not completely out of character. That they would have to explain. It's also not a story given to someone like Cap. Something more radical would have to be explored in greater detail. The example you've given is a nitpick, unlike Broly where it's substantive.

Broly's sad backstory feels clichéd because we've seen too many and this was so inelegantly done. Why should we care about Broly's sob story? How is the story about his pet friend not emotionally manipulative? Why are they going back to the well with the Saiyan history? Making Broly someone whose at the mercy of his own power in order to justify an otherwise good person fighting Goku/Vegeta also feels like every other good guy vs. good guy fight. It takes so much of the oomph out of their battle. What did you find compelling about his story? I don't know what the hell he really wanted. What was his goal? What drives Broly? The entire set up felt like every fight between Superman and Batman - contrived.

And for the record, I didn't intend to imply sad backstories are in general contrived, only that this one was.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun May 19, 2019 5:15 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:24 pm

I have no problem buying Hawkeye murdering bad guys in absence his family given its been shown they are the reason he does what he does. In the five years since they died, I can absolutely buy that a loner might go over the deep end. It's not like he kills innocent people, so it's not completely out of character. That they would have to explain. The example you've given is a nitpick, unlike Broly where it's substantive.
Dude, I knew you were gonna completely misunderstand my point.

Reread what I said please, and at least try to understand what it actually is that I take issue with in regards to this Hawkeye example. I do not take issue with the fact that Hawkeye turned into this, and it has nothing to do with whether I "buy" him doing all that. What I don't like is how it was executed. Again -- and I'm repeating myself here -- we see him at one point losing his whole family, and the very next scene with him, he's a mercenary. It's not about whether I buy this or not. It's that there's no time taken into giving this any real transition. There's no in between. It's just out of no-where.

It was just so poorly done.

Broly's sad backstory feels clichéd because we've seen too many and this was so inelegantly done.
Examples? Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think of that many origin stories where a father forces his son to be a ruthless killing machine for his own personal vendetta.

And how was it inelegantly done?

How is the story about his pet friend not emotionally manipulative?
That was a bit cheesy tbh, I'll give you that. But it doesn't really take away from the rest of his story, at least for me. And it was still at least kind of touching.

Why are they going back to the well with the Saiyan history?
Because Toriyama acknowledge how immensely popular Broly has always been.

Making Broly someone whose at the mercy of his own power in order to justify an otherwise good person fighting Goku/Vegeta also feels like every other good guy vs. good guy fight.
Funny, that's how I felt about Civil War. I actually didn't even quite understand why they were all fighting with each other.

What did you find compelling about his story?
Broly's story in particular, is not compelling. But the Broly movie is. Broly himself is just being manipulated by his dad. Nothing complex about that (it doesn't have to be). However, the reason behind all of that is where the drama begins. Paragus wants revenge against King Vegeta, who himself sees Broly more as a threat than a valuable asset to the Saiyan civilization. Not only that, but he's probably jealous.

We get some insight into King Vegeta's mind. He's clearly very prideful but also spiteful and envious. It's like "how dare a low-class warrior be far more powerful than my son?!" I'm thinking like "okay, this is some pretty fucked up shit!" which I found compelling. It's like Frieza wanted to exterminate the Saiyan race out of fear, but King Vegeta himself has a parallel mindset in wanting to exile Broly, mixed in with some jealousy. Felt like I was watching a political drama for a moment there.
Last edited by Melee_Sovereign on Sun May 19, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 pm

How did I not understand it? You believe they didn't properly dramatized Hawkeye's change and you believe that's indicative of one of the MCU's problems. You should've picked a far better example. What I said is that it's not out of nowhere. It's not a leap to see an otherwise loner lose the thing that grounds him and lose himself. We don't need an inbetween because there is no conflict of characterization. The next time we see him is FIVE YEARS later.

Broly's story is badly done because he has no agency. Why should we care about him when we know nothing about him other than his father wants to use his power? Why does Broly feel any allegiance to him? We even get something so blatantly emotionally manipulative as the father killing his son's pet.
Because Toriyama acknowledge how immensely popular Broly has always been.
Freeza taking over has no bearing on the narrative. It's useless exposition and obnoxious fanservice. We don't need it, it gives no new context for the story.
Funny, that's how I felt about Civil War. I actually didn't even quite understand why they were all fighting with each other.
Then you missed the point completely. After Ultron, Tony feels super powered people need to be put in check. Cap doesn't believe governments should be telling the Avengers where to go and when, since he no longer trusts institutions. Bucky is framed for a murder and Cap wants to protect him. He finds out Hydra created a whole team that is even more dangerous than the Winter Soldier so Cap is trying to go with Bucky to stop what he believes is the bad guy's plans before it's too late. Iron Man tries to bring them in so they can sort it out, but Cap believes it's a waste of time. Ultimately, Zemo's plan had nothing to do with the other super soldiers, he wanted to show them that Bucky was the one that killed Tony's parents, which Steve knew but didn't tell Tony. Having just found out about this and perceiving it as a betrayal of their friendship, Tony lashes out at Steve and tries to murder Bucky. It's understandable given what Tony is going through emotionally. He lost Pepper because he can't give up being Iron Man, he feels guilty over Ultron, Ross puts Tony's friends in prison which he didn't see coming, and now he sees that Steve covered up something he had a right to know, and all this happens rather quickly with no time to properly process any of it. After the fight, the damage was done. It's sad, but it is all in character, pays off what came before, and emotionally resonates with the audience. Maybe not you, but it's all there. I don't know how you missed it. If your friends have fundamentally different beliefs, conflict is inevitable.

All the stuff you mention about Paragus and his conflict with King Vegeta is not only something we've seen in previous movies, it also doesn't resonate because King Vegeta is dead. Seeing in King Vegeta's head isn't that insightful as we've seen that sort of conflict play out before between Goku and Vegeta. It's the very basis of their conflict. Is the reason you find the movie compelling really due to a character's actions we don't see past the prologue?

Paragus doesn't turn his son into a ruthless killing machine. Broly is an innocent through and through in this movie. His power is what drives him mad, which is lame. I've never seen anything in DB that shows power as making characters lose their mind, except in cases like Gohan where for a split second loses control of his mind to protect himself or someone he loves, but he never does for long and he doesn't go after good guys. Several times Goku tries to talk to him and it even looks like he's about to get through only for Broly to continually lose control.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun May 19, 2019 6:03 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 pm

We don't need an inbetween because there is no conflict of characterization.
An in-between would have helped to feel the character's position, rather than just witnessing it.

Anyway, I gave you my reasons for my issues with it. That's all you wanted, right? You don't have to agree with it.

Broly's story is badly done because he has no agency.
Having no agency doesn't make a bad story. That's actually a common trope. It means Broly's story is more world driven than character driven. And it potentially sets up for really good future development.

Again, my explanation. You don't have to agree.

Why should we care about him when we know nothing about him other than his father wants to use his power? Why does Broly feel any allegiance to him?

What do you mean? We kind of know everything about him.

And why does Broly feel any allegience to him? I dunno, because he's his dad?

You don't have to agree though.

Freeza taking over has no bearing on the narrative. It's useless exposition and obnoxious fanservice. We don't need it, it gives no new context for the story.
You know as well as I do that this movie doesn't exist in isolation. It's a Broly movie, but it still exists as part of the Dragon Ball continuum.

I find this to be extremely nitpicky.

Hawkeye turning into a Mercenary has no bearing on the narrative of Thanos, his goals, his motives etc... It's just useless exposition and exists in isolation. It literally does not matter to anything.

and emotionally resonates with the audience.
Dragon Ball just does this better. I think I've explained why already. With MCU it's "all there" objectively, but I don't feel it as much.

The films need to slow down at times.

All the stuff you mention about Paragus and his conflict with King Vegeta is not only something we've seen in previous movies, it also doesn't resonate because King Vegeta is dead.
Him being dead doesn't stop me from resonating with it.

Again, you asked me to explain myself. Now that I have, you're just trying to come at me saying I'm wrong for it.

I thought you only took issue with me simply not explaining it. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but you're clearly taking issue with the fact that I consider Dragon Ball to be better than the MCU and I have reasons for it.

You can disagree with those reasons, but don't take issue with the fact that I have my reasons.

Seeing in King Vegeta's head isn't that insightful as we've seen that sort of conflict play out before between Goku and Vegeta. It's the very basis of their conflict.
That's nonsense. Vegeta doesn't see Goku as a threat, just a rival. And his course of action is to simply train and become stronger than Goku. That's nothing like King Vegeta exiling an infant to a distant planet.

With all this said, I think I've explained my position on the comparison of Dragon Ball and MCU. Whether you agree with it or not, I gave you an explanation which is what you said you wanted.
Last edited by Melee_Sovereign on Sun May 19, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by mfwlegend3 » Sun May 19, 2019 6:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Why should we care about him when we know nothing about him other than his father wants to use his power? Why does Broly feel any allegiance to him? We even get something so blatantly emotionally manipulative as the father killing his son's pet.
Of course we knew nothing about him, he was a "new" character. We were provided information on his background. Enough to suffice at that which would make some of the audience sympathize with his person. Now who exactly it would effect is subjective and varies from person to person. But that's what the writers presented and based on some consensus, it fucking worked. We know that he was a victim of his own strength; being made into a castaway by his own race out of fear of him and made a tool by his own dad--who was the only person he grew up with.

Any other person--or in Broly's case, a creature--Broly tried to establish a relationship with his father got rid of. He fought not from of own volition but for his fathers. Then to top it all off his father is eventually killed. To the audience, we are aware that it was just to further Freeza's entertainment. But Broly is led to believe that HE was responsible for his father's death because of his carelessness. Regardless both the former and latter are completely fucked up.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 6:25 pm

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:13 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Why should we care about him when we know nothing about him other than his father wants to use his power? Why does Broly feel any allegiance to him? We even get something so blatantly emotionally manipulative as the father killing his son's pet.
Of course we knew nothing about him, he was a "new" character. We were provided information on his background. Enough to suffice at that which would make some of the audience sympathize with his person. Now who exactly it would effect is subjective and varies from person to person. But that's what the writers presented and based on some consensus, it fucking worked. We know that he was a victim of his own strength; being made into a castaway by his own race out of fear of him and made a tool by his own dad--who was the only person he grew up with.

Any other person--or in Broly's case, a creature--Broly tried to establish a relationship with his father got rid of. He fought not from of own volition but for his fathers. Then to top it all off his father is eventually killed. To the audience, we are aware that it was just to further Freeza's entertainment. But Broly is led to believe that HE was responsible for his father's death because of his carelessness. Regardless both the former and latter are completely fucked up.
Even after the film we're given no reason to care about him other than he's nice when he's not raging out. I don't think it's quite as effective as you do. I don't see this consensus. What I see is a bunch of people who already liked Broly going into it projecting their feelings of a different version onto this new character. The narrative affected nothing.
That's nonsense. Vegeta doesn't see Goku as a threat, just a rival. And his course of action is to simply train and become stronger than Goku. That's nothing like King Vegeta exiling an infant to a distant planet.
Not in this film, no, but their initial conflict that played out through DBZ did in fact stem from their difference in class. Goku should not have been able to put up any sort of fight and yet he did. That galled him and drove him to prove Goku wrong.
Again, you asked me to explain myself. Now that I have, you're just trying to come at me saying I'm wrong for it.
You're putting words in my mouth. I see you explaining and so I get your reasons, I simply find it baffling that anyone would find a conflict we've seen before now being played out in prologue with a character we never see again is somehow a more compelling narrative than the MCU. There are far better examples in DB than anything in Broly
You know as well as I do that this movie doesn't exist in isolation. It's a Broly movie, but it still exists as part of the Dragon Ball continuum.

I find this to be extremely nitpicky.

Hawkeye turning into a Mercenary has no bearing on the narrative of Thanos, his goals, his motives etc... It's just useless exposition and exists in isolation. It literally does not matter to anything.
Hawkeye's story is a direct result of Thanos' actions. The film is about The Avengers picking themselves up after a devastating loss. It matters to Hawkeye and it matters to Natasha when she makes the decision to die to allow not just her family to reunite, but for Hawkeye's family to reunite. It's the very opposite of exposition. It's a character beat to show how fall he's fallen.

I know the film exists as part of DB, but within the narrative of the film and even the larger mythos, showing us a new version of Goku's origins and Freeza arriving on Planet Vegeta adds nothing. It's indicative of the rest of the film - it's pure fanservice. We gain no new understanding of the Saiyans or Freeza or their conflict. It doesn't push DB forward. It exists purely for the enjoyment of those who are already fans.
Last edited by ABED on Sun May 19, 2019 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by mfwlegend3 » Sun May 19, 2019 6:39 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:25 pm
don't think it's quite as effective as you do.
That's chalked back to my point in it being varied reception between people.
I don't see this consensus. What I see is a bunch of people who already liked Broly going into it projecting their feelings of a different version onto this new character. The narrative affected nothing.
I'm not sure I understand your argument. The narrative is attributed with how the audience perceives this new Broly when comparing and contrasting the old. Whereas although you could feel for what the old Broly had went through in his past, those feelings wouldn't be carried throughout the remainder of the film when we see him being a ruthless unapologetic psychopath. In contrast this Broly is for an all intents and purposes a victim of himself, his father, and Freeza. He in no point in the narrative takes personal pleasure in what he does.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 6:44 pm

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:39 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:25 pm
don't think it's quite as effective as you do.
That's chalked back to my point in it being varied reception between people.
I don't see this consensus. What I see is a bunch of people who already liked Broly going into it projecting their feelings of a different version onto this new character. The narrative affected nothing.
I'm not sure I understand your argument. The narrative is attributed with how the audience perceives this new Broly when comparing and contrasting the old. Whereas although you could feel for what the old Broly had went through in his past, those feelings wouldn't be carried throughout the remainder of the film when we see him being a ruthless unapologetic psychopath. In contrast this Broly is for an all intents and purposes a victim of himself, his father, and Freeza. He in no point in the narrative takes personal pleasure in what he does.
But how they perceive the new one is coming from how they perceived the old one. You say they aren't carried over, but reviews I've read say otherwise. I don't see a whole lot of people changing their opinion about the character either way. In fact those that love Broly's previous incarnation love this one for a big reason, he's made canon. If they were truly judged as you would two different characters, why name him Broly?
Having no agency doesn't make a bad story. That's actually a common trope. It means Broly's story is more world driven than character driven. And it potentially sets up for really good future development.
It's poor storytelling if what's driving Broly is mere set up for something in the future. It's world building nonsense, not a character making choices based on what they want. Actions should come from the things characters want, not superfluous set up. How is this set up for good development?
Last edited by ABED on Sun May 19, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by mfwlegend3 » Sun May 19, 2019 6:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:44 pm
I don't see a whole lot of people changing their opinion about the character either way. In fact those that love Broly's previous incarnation love this one for a big reason, he's made canon. If they were truly judged as you would two different characters, why name him Broly?
I'm curious where have you seen this sort of feedback? From what I've read on this and several other forums people have responded with praise towards this new variant of an already existing character because this one had more "depth" than the former. In fact that was its whole marketing strategy with Toriyama really highlighting how he wanted to make this Broly more "interesting" than the one we've known for decades. Canonicity had/has little--if nothing at all--to do with it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 6:51 pm

I've read it here and plenty of online reviews. All them acknowledge that the film speaks to people who are already fans. I've seen plenty of people say it added depth, but I've also seen people say the execution was lacking. I'm not reading into any of this. Numerous reviews by people who are already fans were excited by Broly being made canon.
Last edited by ABED on Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by mfwlegend3 » Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:51 pm
I've read it here and plenty of online reviews. All them acknowledge that the film speaks to people who are already fans. I've seen plenty of people say it added depth, but I's also seen people say the execution was lacking.
Regardless I don't see how that should shadow the responses of people admiring Broly's improved depth. As I said him now being "canon" is irrelevant. Minus is "canon" but is largely deemed to be the black sheep of Toriyama's recent renditions of previously established stories.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 6:58 pm

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:51 pm
I've read it here and plenty of online reviews. All them acknowledge that the film speaks to people who are already fans. I've seen plenty of people say it added depth, but I's also seen people say the execution was lacking.
Regardless I don't see how that should shadow the responses of people admiring Broly's improved depth. As I said him now being "canon" is irrelevant. Minus is "canon" but is largely deemed to be the black sheep of Toriyama's recent renditions of previously established stories.
Difference here is it didn't take a non-canon character that a lot of people liked and make him canon. It's like it validates their fandom of said character. Bardock on the other hand is a character was already canon and part of a well liked story that everyone assumed was canon and the new version just wasn't nearly as good.

If they weren't counting on the fans' love of Broly, why make the new one a version of the character? They were counting on fans' knowledge and enjoyment of said character to entice them. It worked, but I don't think it's because of the character himself.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun May 19, 2019 7:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:25 pm

What I see is a bunch of people who already liked Broly going into it projecting their feelings of a different version onto this new character. The narrative affected nothing.
You can say the same thing about the MCU. It's a series filled with famous superheroes. I question how popular the series would be if it had the exact same story, but with original non-Marvel characters. It would probably be considered average.

You're putting words in my mouth. I see you explaining and so I get your reasons, I simply find it baffling that anyone would find a conflict we've seen before now being played out in prologue with a character we never see again is somehow a more compelling narrative than the MCU.
You were totally on my case about not explaining my position well enough. I ain't putting words in your mouth. Anyway, I've now explained myself, so there's nothing more to add.

And I'm sorry you find an opinion different from yours, to be baffling. But that's a problem with you, and not anyone else.

I know the film exists as part of DB, but within the narrative of the film and even the larger mythos, showing us a new version of Goku's origins and Freeza arriving on Planet Vegeta adds nothing. It's indicative of the rest of the film - it's pure fanservice. We gain no new understanding of the Saiyans or Freeza or their conflict. It doesn't push DB forward. It exists purely for the enjoyment of those who are already fans.
You can think that about the Broly movie. It's perfectly valid. But I'm not gonna continue a potentially endless debate. I still hold Dragon Ball to be above Marvel, and I have my reasons why, and I've explained at least some of them. I think it does a lot of things better than Marvel and MCU (and vice versa, but DB's pros appeal to me more than Marvel's pros).

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun May 19, 2019 7:46 pm

It's more than okay to give a preference of one over the other, but the thing that rubbed me the wrong way was when you say things like holding it against Marvel for designing their films to appeal to a wide audience as if that's a negative. It wasn't clear what you meant nor why you think that's a negative. Hell, even after all this, it's still not. Usually the reason given is that by trying to appeal to such a broad base of people, the stories become generic, flavorless, and safe. If that's what you meant, okay, but it didn't come through in any of your responses.
I question how popular the series would be if it had the exact same story, but with original non-Marvel characters. It would probably be considered average.
See now you go one step too far. You don't have to like them but the reason the MCU has proven so successful is because it tells the audience a story and it has a good understanding of what a mainstream audience who doesn't know characters like Thanos and Iron Man need in order to enjoy the story. They tell them a story and give them the relevant context. These films aren't just well received by hardcore fans of the comics. Many comic book fans didn't know who the Guardians of the Galaxy were pre-2014. Marvel Studios didn't become the biggest thing in pop culture by preaching to the converted.

Broly however is a different case. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad for appealing to people who were already fans. That's fair. DB is big worldwide, but I'd still call it a niche series. It's reasonable to expect its fanbase to have seen everything that came before, including a non-canon movie.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sun May 19, 2019 8:34 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:47 pm
Toei (and sometimes Toyotaro) has outshined Toriyama when it comes to this franchise numerous times. (Examples include 90's Bardock > DB Minus, the anime Buu saga > the manga Buu saga, many fights, Goku's characterization etc).

This "Toriyama can do no wrong" mentality is extremely annoying, especially since the majority of Super's fundamental problems (both versions) come directly from Toriyama himself, rather than Toei & Toyotaro's interpretations of his outline.

And by the way, BoG was initially a Toei-only project, and RoF (exclusively Toriyama made) sucks all-around.
Can you please not assume my opinions on Toriyama? My opinion on him isn't that he can do no wrong, just that his lack of involvement in GT & Super, outside of the outlines of each arc in Super, is majorly felt. He's the reason 2 of the last 3 films are really good & he completely redeemed Broly from being the guy who hated Goku because he cried next to him as a baby & gave him actual depth. That alone sums up my point. When he's in his element & at the top of his game, he's really damn good at what he does right.
Your examples are a bit half-baked as well. 90s Bardock IS better than the Minus version, only because Toriyama has championed Goku as not Superman, yet reversed his decision in that instance for some reason, but I have no context for if the Buu Saga was better in animated form or in manga form, & Goku's characterization is...wonky with both Toei & Toriyama. Toriyama started altering Goku's characterization from what it was, but in the Buu Saga, it's more he comes off as inconsistent or an idiot because Toriyama had too many things he wanted to do & you can tell he was running on fumes, but I never felt Goku was TOO out of character during that arc otherwise because I blame Toriyama's forced writing of plot points, while Toei's staff doesn't know how to consistently write Goku's character in Super. They make him a complete idiot who only lives for fighting & food. Nothing else. There's more to Goku's character than that. THEN you get to the serious moments where it SEEMS like Goku's back to normal...until either the moment has passed, or something else that's stupid. They overcorrected when it came to making Goku more heroic. He's more like Monkey D. Luffy now, which just isn't Goku. Yet when Toeiyama actually writes the story, Goku's magically back to being consistent as a character with how he used to be int he manga. That's just something I noticed.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
TFS getting shafted from the Kai TFC dub is a great travesty.
GT sucks, get over it if you disagree.
We'll see what happens to Vic.
Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ruler9871 » Sun May 19, 2019 8:54 pm

Scsigs wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:34 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:47 pm
Toei (and sometimes Toyotaro) has outshined Toriyama when it comes to this franchise numerous times. (Examples include 90's Bardock > DB Minus, the anime Buu saga > the manga Buu saga, many fights, Goku's characterization etc).

This "Toriyama can do no wrong" mentality is extremely annoying, especially since the majority of Super's fundamental problems (both versions) come directly from Toriyama himself, rather than Toei & Toyotaro's interpretations of his outline.

And by the way, BoG was initially a Toei-only project, and RoF (exclusively Toriyama made) sucks all-around.
Can you please not assume my opinions on Toriyama? My opinion on him isn't that he can do no wrong, just that his lack of involvement in GT & Super, outside of the outlines of each arc in Super, is majorly felt. He's the reason 2 of the last 3 films are really good & he completely redeemed Broly from being the guy who hated Goku because he cried next to him as a baby & gave him actual depth. That alone sums up my point. When he's in his element & at the top of his game, he's really damn good at what he does right.
Your examples are a bit half-baked as well. 90s Bardock IS better than the Minus version, only because Toriyama has championed Goku as not Superman, yet reversed his decision in that instance for some reason, but I have no context for if the Buu Saga was better in animated form or in manga form, & Goku's characterization is...wonky with both Toei & Toriyama. Toriyama started altering Goku's characterization from what it was, but in the Buu Saga, it's more he comes off as inconsistent or an idiot because Toriyama had too many things he wanted to do & you can tell he was running on fumes, but I never felt Goku was TOO out of character during that arc otherwise because I blame Toriyama's forced writing of plot points, while Toei's staff doesn't know how to consistently write Goku's character in Super. They make him a complete idiot who only lives for fighting & food. Nothing else. There's more to Goku's character than that. THEN you get to the serious moments where it SEEMS like Goku's back to normal...until either the moment has passed, or something else that's stupid. They overcorrected when it came to making Goku more heroic. He's more like Monkey D. Luffy now, which just isn't Goku. Yet when Toeiyama actually writes the story, Goku's magically back to being consistent as a character with how he used to be int he manga. That's just something I noticed.
1. Fixing Broly is pretty easy, so that doesn't say much to his favor. Even then, he "fixed" him by essentially turning him into another Gohan instead of improving on his Movie 8 characterization (which was what most people expected before the film was released).

2. 90's Bardock being better than DB Minus has nothing to do with how Goku was written, but how Bardock himself was written (and how Toriyama basically ruined him in Minus).

3. Toriyama's outline/direction is precisely the main source of problems in both versions of Super, not his absense. Goku's Flanderization (including the "no kissing" gag), the general lack of tension in Super, the stupid ending of the Black arc and other problems were all Toriyama's decisions, not Toei's or Toyotaro's.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun May 19, 2019 9:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:46 pm
Hell, even after all this, it's still not.
It makes it more contrived and less genuine. Thought I made that clear.

You don't have to like them but the reason the MCU has proven so successful is because it tells the audience a story and it has a good understanding of what a mainstream audience who doesn't know characters like Thanos and Iron Man need in order to enjoy the story.
I didn't say I didn't like it. I just like Dragon Ball more. And the mainstream audience would still be less likely to be interested if these characters weren't already famous.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Shintoki » Sun May 19, 2019 9:39 pm

since we are talking about broly. i would like to exploit take this chance and state a most unpoupular opinion.

super saiyan berserker is the form broly uses in the DBZ films, and it effects greatly his actions, and personality during those two, as seen with kale, whatever he does in this form, is out of his hand, and mind.
:?

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