Yeah, fixing Broly was easy. He had nothing, so giving him anything was an improvement. I still credit him with actually making it GOOD, though. Just the changes that he gave him were enough to make it automatically better.ruler9871 wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 8:54 pm1. Fixing Broly is pretty easy, so that doesn't say much to his favor. Even then, he "fixed" him by essentially turning him into another Gohan instead of improving on his Movie 8 characterization (which was what most people expected before the film was released).
2. 90's Bardock being better than DB Minus has nothing to do with how Goku was written, but how Bardock himself was written (and how Toriyama basically ruined him in Minus).
3. Toriyama's outline/direction is precisely the main source of problems in both versions of Super, not his absense. Goku's Flanderization (including the "no kissing" gag), the general lack of tension in Super, the stupid ending of the Black arc and other problems were all Toriyama's decisions, not Toei's or Toyotaro's.
I...don't think I said that either had anything to do with the other. Did I? Because that's not what I meant to say.
You forget, however, that Toriyama only wanted Goku more like he was in the manga as opposed to how he actually turned out. It WAS his idea that Goku be more selfish. However, his lack of involvement lead to Toei's writers overcorrecting, as I said, & made Goku one of the most selfish people ever. Even then, though, it's inconsistently so depending on the writers & showrunners behind the scripts. And, yeah, Toriyama made some stupid decisions in his outlines, not defending everything, but his lack of involvement in the writing of the anime at the very least has lead to problems. Toriyama is not the person behind a lot of Super's faults. He just plans out the stories of the arcs. Toei's staff are the ones who're left to fill in the blanks. They're at fault when it's not a huge plot development.
Even then, let's say Toriyama's completely bad at writing Super's outlines, not just that he's had some really bad ideas here & there. If Toei had competent showrunners & writers with specific ideas, plot maps, & the like planned out with a logically-flowing story, as well as changing Toriyama's ideas to be better for the stories, then the show would instantly be better as a whole. However, the lack of a cohesive writing of the stories of the arcs lead to inconsistencies, rushed developments, & bad writing.
Look at the Goku Black arc. It has a lot in common with the Danny Phantom special, "The Ultimate Enemy", but with some differences here & there. The only problems I had with the Danny Phantom special were that Danny's future self seemed to think he could make the future he comes from happen, even though logically his younger self wouldn't make it happen because he now knows about it, & that we never saw much of the original timeline that started the event hat made that terrible future. I have one of those problems here; the second, but a whole list of other problems like Trunks being a Gary Stu, Zamasu's hatred of mortals not being given enough justifiable weight, Toei stating that Goku Black comes from the same timeline we see in the show, just without Beerus stopping him from killing Gowasu (not helped by the animators reusing the animation untouched for a flashback) even though the timeline he came from, logically, is one where neither Goku Black nor future Trunks never came back to, the rushed pacing of the final few episodes, the retcon of potara fusion to bring Vegetto back but depower him because they didn't wanna use the fusion dance for some reason, & Trunks & Mai not having more grief over their timeline being wiped from existence & being cool with going to an earlier timeline Whis is gonna make because SUDDENLY that can be done apparently. Now, some of these things are Toriyama's fault, directly or indirectly, but the rest are the Toei writers' faults. In theory, Toriyama's original outline could work, but it NEEDED a lot more care, time, & attention to detail, as anything involving time travel does, otherwise we get the Future Trunks Arc in the anime. Granted, I don't think the way Toyotaro did it was much better because HIS ending made no sense whatsoever. I'm betting his was more consistent, though, because he's the only person writing the manga & he had more time to write it out. If the writers or showrunner at the time cared to make the story the best way possible, they would've done better at adapting his outlines to make everything work. Plain & simple.