Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:23 pm
I'm kinda dumb so I missed that. Sorry.

Anyway. I'm glad that Kai got to finish because the Funimation dub got to finish their improved dub!
Same, but I wish the stuff that caused plot holes were cut (i.e. the Hell scenes).
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
TFS getting shafted from the Kai TFC dub is a great travesty.
GT sucks, get over it if you disagree.
We'll see what happens to Vic.
Um...Listen to Waterparks.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed May 22, 2019 1:38 am

Scsigs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:23 pm
I'm kinda dumb so I missed that. Sorry.

Anyway. I'm glad that Kai got to finish because the Funimation dub got to finish their improved dub!
Same, but I wish the stuff that caused plot holes were cut (i.e. the Hell scenes).
I do like that they cut out a lot of the 100% pure filler scenes and episodes/whole arcs from the series for Kai that i've honestly never really cared for like Gohan's wandering around the woods and encounter with the saber tiger in episode 1, the orphans or the Princess Snake and Fake Namek/Garlic Jr. stuff. There were some bits though that i actually enjoy primarily the Other World Tournament arc which expanded upon the hierarchy of the deities beyond just North Kaio, as the parts with him and the other respective Kaios always make me laugh and especially the Grand Kaio with his outlandish non formal casual wear we see show up every now and then. The tournament's matches including Paikuhan and Goku's bout in particular is probably my personal favorite part of the arc by far. It's definitely something different when compared to the standard Tenkaichi Tournaments.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed May 22, 2019 2:56 am

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:38 am
Scsigs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:23 pm
I'm kinda dumb so I missed that. Sorry.

Anyway. I'm glad that Kai got to finish because the Funimation dub got to finish their improved dub!
Same, but I wish the stuff that caused plot holes were cut (i.e. the Hell scenes).
I do like that they cut out a lot of the 100% pure filler scenes and episodes/whole arcs from the series for Kai that i've honestly never really cared for like Gohan's wandering around the woods and encounter with the saber tiger in episode 1, the orphans or the Princess Snake and Fake Namek/Garlic Jr. stuff. There were some bits though that i actually enjoy primarily the Other World Tournament arc which expanded upon the hierarchy of the deities beyond just North Kaio, as the parts with him and the other respective Kaios always make me laugh and especially the Grand Kaio with his outlandish non formal casual wear we see show up every now and then. The tournament's matches including Paikuhan and Goku's bout in particular is probably my personal favorite part of the arc by far. It's definitely something different when compared to the standard Tenkaichi Tournaments.
Oh my god, literally the exact same fucking opinions! The majority of the filler minus that tournament was just worthless. I know some people like the expanded look on Gohan's character development, but it's just like, it wasn't in the manga, so I don't care whatsoever. Sure, Toriyama could've expended on it himself, & I would've appreciated that, but it's like, who cares? The other fillers are literally that &, as a result, they're completely worthless. For me, Kai is the definitive version of Z. Great pacing, good remaster, not nearly as much filler, & a great English dub. Sure, I'd like to watch through Z as it was, bu Kai is more definitively the best version of the series pound for pound.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
TFS getting shafted from the Kai TFC dub is a great travesty.
GT sucks, get over it if you disagree.
We'll see what happens to Vic.
Um...Listen to Waterparks.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 5:41 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:46 pm
Hell, even after all this, it's still not.
It makes it more contrived and less genuine. Thought I made that clear.

You don't have to like them but the reason the MCU has proven so successful is because it tells the audience a story and it has a good understanding of what a mainstream audience who doesn't know characters like Thanos and Iron Man need in order to enjoy the story.
I didn't say I didn't like it. I just like Dragon Ball more. And the mainstream audience would still be less likely to be interested if these characters weren't already famous.
Guardians of the Galaxy weren't famous pre-MCU. I think you've overestimated how well known many of their characters were until their movies. We've also seen too many times that basing a film off existing IP in no way guarantees success. I got that you like DB more. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. What bugs me is when you say things like the MCU is less genuine or apparently it's a negative to design stories or worlds to be popular with a mainstream audience.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Nokra » Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 am

Use to like marvel a lot. But recently they've become too much about appealing to an obvious sjw feminist agenda :thumbdown: Feelsbad

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 22, 2019 10:55 am

ABED wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 5:41 am

Guardians of the Galaxy weren't famous pre-MCU.
MCU was already well established by the time they came out. Of course people are gonna go see it.

What bugs me is when you say things like the MCU is less genuine or apparently it's a negative to design stories or worlds to be popular with a mainstream audience.
Well, that's how I naturally feel about it. I don't choose to feel this way. That's just my natural reaction when I see these movies.

I don't sit there and think of reasons to feel negative about it. My feelings are my subconscious impression of the MCU.

I actually wish I could say I don't feel this way about the MCU. But I do, so what can I say.

Either way, these negatives to me aren't even that big of a deal. They don't ruin the MCU for me. I still think the MCU is fantastic. But if we're making comparisons, and I'm comparing it to Dragon Ball, the the aforementioned things I think are things DB has over MCU.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by VegettoEX » Wed May 22, 2019 11:16 am

Nokra wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 am
Use to like marvel a lot. But recently they've become too much about appealing to an obvious sjw feminist agenda :thumbdown: Feelsbad
Insert standard "not sure you've ever actually read a comic book before" response here.

Where do you people keep coming from?

Also, like, this has nothing to do with Dragon Ball...?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 11:19 am

Could you please explain why it's a negative for any story to try to appeal to mass audiences? In all this back and forth, you've never given a good reason. You feel that way, fine, but why?
MCU was already well established by the time they came out. Of course people are gonna go see it.
But before, you were saying the films were popular because they characters were already known. This whole line of argument started because I said people's appraisal of new Broly is mostly a case of transference. I absolutely believe that to be the case, otherwise why remake the character and give him a completely different personality if you weren't counting on the popularity of the previous incarnation? In the end, there's not enough in the character for me to believe the new version is liked because he was well written. The MCU on the otherhand has used the success they built (first by using mostly characters few people in the mainstream cared about) and used the goodwill to expand their roster by using deep bench characters that even some hardcore fans didn't know or care about. However, that goodwill only goes so far if you rely purely on past feelings. Mileage varies, but I don't see what there is about the new Broly that people liked so much other than he's something familiar.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 22, 2019 12:02 pm

Nokra wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 am
Use to like marvel a lot. But recently they've become too much about appealing to an obvious sjw feminist agenda :thumbdown: Feelsbad
And this is based on....what?

Or are these the words your pet manatee brought to you from the stock buzzwords pool?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 22, 2019 2:25 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 11:19 am
Could you please explain why it's a negative for any story to try to appeal to mass audiences? In all this back and forth, you've never given a good reason. You feel that way, fine, but why?
I've said it a million times by now. It can make the the writing feel less genuine and more contrived.

To be fair, sure, it can be a good thing to aim for mass appeal. But you are prone to have the aformentioned negative qualities. It's not guaranteed, but you're prone.
But before, you were saying the films were popular because they characters were already known.
The characters and, of course, Marvel it self.
But before, you were saying the films were popular because they characters were already known. This whole line of argument started because I said people's appraisal of new Broly is mostly a case of transference.
You're probably right, but at the same time, I still think Broly would be well liked if he were a new character. As popular as the original Broly is, a lot of people also hated him. Most of those people don't hate this new Broly.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 2:39 pm

But years of films that did poorly both commercially and critically even with either the DC or Marvel logo in front should show you there's zero guarentee that putting something based on known IP will bring in an audience time after time.
I've said it a million times by now. It can make the the writing feel less genuine and more contrived.

To be fair, sure, it can be a good thing to aim for mass appeal. But you are prone to have the aformentioned negative qualities. It's not guaranteed, but you're prone.
You said the first part a million times even though you don't expound on why, but the second paragraph finally does. While I agree with the idea, I don't agree with how you've applied to Marvel Studios. Clearly they've figured out the model of how to tell the stories of separate film franchises within a shared universe well. It says something that no other company that has tried it has been able to replicate with any degree of success, including one that has years of source material giving them the blueprint.

One of my biggest gripes about Super in general is its insistance on keeping Freeza around. There's little need for him in this story and yet, he has not just become the arch-nemesis of the series, which DB never had until that point, he's now as threatening as a Saturday morning cartoon villain who loses constantly and at the end opines that he'll get the hero someday. DB used to kill villains off and let them return maybe once. Now, the writers have to contrive ways to keep Freeza in the story.

The number that like the old Broly are far more numerous, at least those that pay to see him, renders the opinions of his detractors moot. He drew well in his old incarnation so much so that even before Movie 8 arrived in the US in 2003, he was well known enough that FUNi's marketing strategy was essentially "the one you've been waiting for is finally here!"
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed May 22, 2019 5:04 pm

Nokra wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 am
Use to like marvel a lot. But recently they've become too much about appealing to an obvious sjw feminist agenda :thumbdown: Feelsbad
Have you been listening to too much No Bullshit? That guy's not actually someone you should take seriously.
If you wanna offer actual legit criticisms & observations, like the fact that
then I think your addition to this conversation would actually be worth it. Otherwise, just making blanket statements like that is just really bad for you, my guy. Just having female & LGBT characters, multi-racial ensemble casts, & female empowerment moments doesn't make them "SJWs" or appealing to feminism. It's more of inclusion than anything else. If you'd like to discuss the scripts & filmmaking, you could probably make some points, but no, that's not what you're wanting to do.
Think about these things for a moment, my guy.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
TFS getting shafted from the Kai TFC dub is a great travesty.
GT sucks, get over it if you disagree.
We'll see what happens to Vic.
Um...Listen to Waterparks.
That is all.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 22, 2019 6:31 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:39 pm
But years of films that did poorly both commercially and critically even with either the DC or Marvel logo in front should show you there's zero guarentee that putting something based on known IP will bring in an audience time after time.
And the second and third Broly movies are generally considered poor as well. So again, by that same token, DBS Broly is probably actually good?

While I agree with the idea, I don't agree with how you've applied to Marvel Studios. Clearly they've figured out the model of how to tell the stories of separate film franchises within a shared universe well.
Like I said, it's my natural impression of the films. It's not a conclusion I arrived at through some logical process of reasoning. It's my automatic reaction when I watch these films. A reaction is not something you logically arrive at. A reaction is just that. A reaction.

And keep in mind this reaction is more-or-less mild. You keep making points to me as if I'm saying the movies are bad when I told you I don't think that. My criticism of MCU feeling less genuine and more contrived is only in comparison to Dragon Ball, since this discussion is about that comparison.

In its own right, I think the MCU is overall well written and genuine. I just think, as a comparison, Dragon Ball does a better job at feeling genuine and less contrived. That's also not to say that Dragon Ball isn't guilty of those negative qualities. But again, this is a comparison.

The number that like the old Broly are far more numerous
I don't think there's an official statistic on this, but it really doesn't matter. There was enough people out there that loathed the original Broly for my point to stand.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 6:48 pm

And the second and third Broly movies are generally considered poor as well. So again, by that same token, DBS Broly is probably actually good?
The first is largely considered the best, the reception to the second was fine, and it's the third one that's not well received in large part because it's not actually Broly. This last one is a mixed bag. I made a topic where I expanded on just that. It's enjoyable, but still a mediocre movie.
Like I said, it's my natural impression of the films. It's not a conclusion I arrived at through some logical process of reasoning. It's my automatic reaction when I watch these films. A reaction is not something you logically arrive at. A reaction is just that. A reaction.
That's not EXACTLY true. Your emotions are automatic gut reactions based on you ideas and conscious held beliefs. Your emotional reaction is based on something and it wouldn't even need some deep psychoanalysis to figure out why you are reacting the way you are. However, if you don't want to, fine, but understand that emotions don't arise from a vacuum.

You don't have to keep telling me you like the MCU or whether you like DB more. That's never been my issue. I simply think you hold a bizarre problem with the MCU being made to appeal to a mainstream audience. It's difficult to do, so anyone that actually does it deserves credit instead of suspicion. All it means is they've connected with the audience emotionally, which is the primary purpose of art. DB is no different in that regard. Toriyama is refreshingly open about becoming a manga author to make money.
I don't think there's an official statistic on this, but it really doesn't matter. There was enough people out there that loathed the original Broly for my point to stand.
Not when you don't include the latter part of my statement, "... at least those that pay to see him, renders the opinions of his detractors moot." Broly is draws money, so it ultimately doesn't matter if a lot of people don't like him, they haven't negatively impacted his drawing power. To use another MCU example, there were a lot of people that hated Brie Larson and Captain Marvel well before they ever saw it. Lots of people made it known they wouldn't see it out of spite. Did that hurt the movie at the box office? It made over 1 billion, so do the detractors' opinions matter in the scheme of things? As it pertains to Broly, we're talking the difference between three films made within quick succession vs. a new take that's come out when DB has been revitalized and the popular character hasn't been in a movie for decades. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 22, 2019 7:20 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:48 pm

That's not EXACTLY true. Your emotions are automatic gut reactions based on you ideas and conscious held beliefs.
And preferences i.e. things I happen to enjoy seeing in works of fiction.

I simply think you hold a bizarre problem with the MCU being made to appeal to a mainstream audience.
It's the potential drawback of doing this that I have a problem with. A drawback that I think is often present in MCU.

Broly is draws money, so it ultimately doesn't matter if a lot of people don't like him, they haven't negatively impacted his drawing power.
Was it his drawing power, or just Dragon Ball's drawing power?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 7:47 pm

Was it his drawing power, or just Dragon Ball's drawing power?
A combination of the two since it's not simply a function of DB. Putting a popular character as the central antagonist of the film is likely going to bring in more people than a brand new one. This is absolutely true in this example since why else make him Broly if not attempting to cash in on his popularity?
It's the potential drawback of doing this that I have a problem with. A drawback that I think is often present in MCU.
And drawbacks of DB going on this long is the taffy has been pulled way too far and now DB's arguably most popular villain, Freeza, is relegated to the role of recurring villain straight out of a Saturday Morning cartoon. He's no longer "the root of evil", he's friggin' Skeletor. It's amazing that you don't believe what's clear as day - DB is no longer the vision of a single gifted artist. Even if DB was still only written and drawn by Toriyama, it would still be pulling the taffy and be pumping out product for the money with only occasional flashes of his former brilliance. Both the MCU and present DB are trying to appeal to mass audiences. This isn't about which is doing it better, just acknowledgement that both are doing so and it's not a bad thing in the least.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 22, 2019 9:16 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:47 pm

And drawbacks of DB going on this long is the taffy has been pulled way too far and now DB's arguably most popular villain, Freeza, is relegated to the role of recurring villain straight out of a Saturday Morning cartoon.
I honestly don't mind that Frieza has assumed this role. I'm kind of glad, actually.

Of course, now you're gonna ask me why, aren't you? Well I do have my reasons :D

He's no longer "the root of evil", he's friggin' Skeletor. It's amazing that you don't believe what's clear as day - DB is no longer the vision of a single gifted artist. Even if DB was still only written and drawn by Toriyama, it would still be pulling the taffy and be pumping out product for the money with only occasional flashes of his former brilliance.


Toriyama has always had editors. So his stories were never entirely his vision. I think he works best this way (as do most writers as it's actually pretty standard to have editors).

But there's a difference between that, and different head writers writing different sections of the story.

This isn't about which is doing it better, just acknowledgement that both are doing so and it's not a bad thing in the least.
It is about which is doing it better. That's literally all we've been talking about. I acknowledge what both Marvel and DB are guilty of, but I really don't care to discuss that. That's a different discussion. I was merely expressing what I think DB does better than Marvel and why I like it better. What is so hard to understand about that?

And I'm not arguing my points in a way to try and persuade other's to my viewpoint. I'm merely expressing what I think, and you seem to have a huge problem with it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 23, 2019 8:16 am

It is about which is doing it better. That's literally all we've been talking about.
I'm sorry if you thought that, but that's not how this whole thing started. I'm not interested in convincing you which is doing it better. I'm primarily interested in getting to the root of why you take any issue with either story aiming towards a mass audience.
But there's a difference between that, and different head writers writing different sections of the story.
There is no head writer at Marvel. It's not a TV series with a showrunner. It's not a negative or positive. It's a neutral choice regarding how the stories are told. DB is all one story. The MCU, just like comics, are different stories all set in the same universe. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Having an editor doesn't mean it's not his vision. It's just feedback.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 23, 2019 12:51 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:16 am

I'm primarily interested in getting to the root of why you take any issue with either story aiming towards a mass audience.
Well I think I've already explained why by now.
It's not a negative or positive. It's a neutral choice regarding how the stories are told.
It's a matter of preference. What's hard to understand about that? I can prefer apples over oranges.

I like it when a story is the vision of one head writer. From my experience, I always find it easier to personally connect with the overall lore and characterizations. When I read Marvel or DC comics, it feels less personal. It probably IS less personal to these writers since they're not the inventors of these characters or the fictional universes. It's not their brain child. They're just hired writers.

It's not bad in any way, but it still feels different.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 23, 2019 1:26 pm

While it's true the subsequent artists didn't create those characters, they very often defined them. Many of the characters we know and love from DC and Marvel didn't come out of the gate fully formed. Stuff was added or dropped as the years went by. And though clearly your mileage varies, I think it can become personal when writers take over books they didn't create because they are fans and so the material means something to them. The characterizations change, but it's never been one giant narrative like DB.

I understand matters of preference but the way you framed your position wasn't one of preference. I wouldn't have brought any of this up if all you had said was I prefer the approach of a single author telling a single story (even though DB Super being written by committee throws that idea out the window, but I digress) over a line of disperate characters and stories that are constantly change and reinterpreted as neccessary to keep them fresh and in a state of constant publication. I understand and I'm sympathetic to it. However, the point you made that I took exception to was to you a statement of fact "But you can tell the writing and overall production of the movie series, is done as a job that needs to get done. It's designed explicitly to be popular, draw in a crowd and make profit off of it."
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Happiness is climate, not weather.

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