Unpopular DB opinions

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Melee_Sovereign
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 28, 2019 10:03 pm

Well I was kind of making the point there that its goofiness adds contrast. I don't think its goofiness takes away from its darkness. On the contrary, it accentuates it. This might be because it's rarely ever dark and silly at the exact same time.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 29, 2019 4:31 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:03 pm
Well I was kind of making the point there that its goofiness adds contrast. I don't think its goofiness takes away from its darkness. On the contrary, it accentuates it. This might be because it's rarely ever dark and silly at the exact same time.
I was partly being facetious, but the weird poop thing is indicative of many other elements. The overall story isn't dark. Just because there are stretches of darkness, doesn't make it a dark story. Even in the Cell arc, which has tension and suspense, it is not a dark story.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 29, 2019 4:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:31 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:03 pm
Well I was kind of making the point there that its goofiness adds contrast. I don't think its goofiness takes away from its darkness. On the contrary, it accentuates it. This might be because it's rarely ever dark and silly at the exact same time.
I was partly being facetious, but the weird poop thing is indicative of many other elements. The overall story isn't dark. Just because there are stretches of darkness, doesn't make it a dark story. Even in the Cell arc, which has tension and suspense, it is not a dark story.
Well this is similar to our previous discussion. If someone gets the automatic impression that DBZ is dark, then why go out of your way to tell them they're wrong?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 29, 2019 5:00 pm

This is hardly me going out of my way. I would wonder what would lead someone to get the impression that DB is dark or what they even think dark means. I noticed you wrote DBZ and not DB. While even calling DBZ dark is generous, calling it DBZ and not DB is telling. If you don't take into account the full story, it's easy to not understand the full context.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Wed May 29, 2019 5:20 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:00 pm
This is hardly me going out of my way. I would wonder what would lead someone to get the impression that DB is dark or what they even think dark means. I noticed you wrote DBZ and not DB. While even calling DBZ dark is generous, calling it DBZ and not DB is telling. If you don't take into account the full story, it's easy to not understand the full context.
Some fans confuse serious for dark. DB has been serious since the introduction of Tao all the way back in the RRA arc in DB. If I had to pick a dark story from DB I'd say The Trunks and even Bardock specials are the only 2 stories that can be called dark.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 29, 2019 5:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:00 pm
This is hardly me going out of my way. I would wonder what would lead someone to get the impression that DB is dark or what they even think dark means. I noticed you wrote DBZ and not DB. While even calling DBZ dark is generous, calling it DBZ and not DB is telling. If you don't take into account the full story, it's easy to not understand the full context.
I was referencing Nightbane's comment, since it's where all this started from. He specifically made the comparison of DBZ and DBS.

Looking up non-literal definitions of dark, I get these:

"(of a period of time or situation) characterized by tragedy, unhappiness, or unpleasantness."

I'd say DB, and DBZ in particular, has a fair amount of this.

"gloomily pessimistic."

And this.

"synonyms: gloomy, dismal, pessimistic, negative, defeatist, downbeat, gloom-ridden, cynical, bleak, grim, fatalistic, black, somber, drab, dreary:

And this, and I'd actually say this video here sheds some light on these characteristics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuvSwb5KM6Q

"hidden from knowledge; mysterious."

Maybe not so much this, although it's not completely absent from the series.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 29, 2019 6:01 pm

I would never call DB gloomy or pessimistic. There are darker stretches in the story but it's overall upbeat. Much of what is construed as darkness is naturally what happens when a story ratchets up the tension, but it's not the overall feel of the world. The world is much more upbeat and hopeful. It's in no way dour or cynical or defeatist. Goku's very character is all about overcoming limits and adversity. The only thing I would call tragic are Trunks' timeline which did lack hope. The other time I would call truly dark was the majority of the Freeza arc where it dealt with genocide and a the death of a few main characters. Still, DB's modus operandi is definitely fun and upbeat.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed May 29, 2019 6:07 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:01 pm
I would never call DB gloomy or pessimistic.
The TV specials would probably fit the bill.
Last edited by WittyUsername on Wed May 29, 2019 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:07 pm
The TV specials would probably qualify fit the bill.
Two TV specials do not make the whole series.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed May 29, 2019 6:51 pm

Two specials that arent even written by Toriyama
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 29, 2019 6:54 pm

The Trunks chapter was. Again, those are exceptions to the rule, and I covered one of them when I said Trunks' timeline was tragic which is the whole point. His backstory was tragic, but the end of his story (not counting Super) was one of hope.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 29, 2019 7:00 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:01 pm
I would never call DB gloomy or pessimistic. There are darker stretches in the story but it's overall upbeat. Much of what is construed as darkness is naturally what happens when a story ratchets up the tension, but it's not the overall feel of the world. The world is much more upbeat and hopeful. It's in no way dour or cynical or defeatist. Goku's very character is all about overcoming limits and adversity. The only thing I would call tragic are Trunks' timeline which did lack hope. The other time I would call truly dark was the majority of the Freeza arc where it dealt with genocide and a the death of a few main characters. Still, DB's modus operandi is definitely fun and upbeat.
I would again, argue that the upbeatness, hopefulness, and Goku's characterization, serve to add contrast. I see it all as creating dichotomy in relation to the dark tone of DB, not overriding it.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed May 29, 2019 7:15 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 7:00 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:01 pm
I would never call DB gloomy or pessimistic. There are darker stretches in the story but it's overall upbeat. Much of what is construed as darkness is naturally what happens when a story ratchets up the tension, but it's not the overall feel of the world. The world is much more upbeat and hopeful. It's in no way dour or cynical or defeatist. Goku's very character is all about overcoming limits and adversity. The only thing I would call tragic are Trunks' timeline which did lack hope. The other time I would call truly dark was the majority of the Freeza arc where it dealt with genocide and a the death of a few main characters. Still, DB's modus operandi is definitely fun and upbeat.
I would again, argue that the upbeatness, hopefulness, and Goku's characterization, serve to add contrast. I see it all as creating dichotomy in relation to the dark tone of DB, not overriding it.
DB is about Goku and stories reflect their main character. What the hell would Toriyama be saying by having an upbeat character who's constantly pushing his limits and achieving his goals if he's telling a defeatist, dark, cynical tale? What actual evidence do you have support your thesis that DB is dark?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed May 29, 2019 7:34 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:07 pm
The TV specials would probably qualify fit the bill.
Two TV specials do not make the whole series.
I never said they do, but they’re definitely notable for being pretty dark and humorless, especially by Dragon Ball standards. I’m obviously not suggesting that Dragon Ball as a whole is some gloomy and depressing series, even if I’m somewhat inclined to think that there’s a certain level of mean spiritedness in it. I mean, it started off as a gag manga, and Toriyama has made it clear that he prefers writing silly stories over serious and moody ones.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 12:28 am

ABED wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 7:15 pm

DB is about Goku and stories reflect their main character. What the hell would Toriyama be saying by having an upbeat character who's constantly pushing his limits and achieving his goals if he's telling a defeatist, dark, cynical tale? What actual evidence do you have support your thesis that DB is dark?
What, am I in a seminar or something? My "thesis"....

Anyway, I said DB is fairly dark. Relax. And slow down with that other stuff. You don't necessarily have to have defeatism, or cynicism to be dark. Those were listed as synonyms from my Google search. Just clearing that up so you don't hold me to that in your next post. The words "tragedy", "unhappiness" and "unpleasantness" also came up. Basically, anything very negative. And I say "very" to distinguish it from mildly negative things you might find in a story, such as, I dunno... losing a game of football, or a break-up or something. There's movies that center around plotlines like that and are presented as serious. But I wouldn't call those dark. We don't exactly have civilizations being wiped out in Remember the Titans. Prime example of a movie that's serious, but not in any way dark (except maybe that scene where that guy gets into a car accident).

Anyway, to give you evidence to my "thesis", DB has Krillin being impaled, and later, blown up. It's got Dende being killed. It's got Frieza torturing Vegeta, with Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo hopelessly watching it happen. It's got Frieza torturing Goku right after he goes
50%. It's got Goku being stranded on Namek, completely alone, and in a state of hopelessness (though he survived later, the scene at the time was one of hopelessness, fatalism, and despair). It's got Frieza getting sliced in half. It's got Trunks' future timeline. It's got Cell absorbing people by literally melting them from the inside, and showing it. It's got Cell's visual design (the fucker is scary in his imperfect form, idgaf what anyone says). It's got Buu flying into someone's mouth and making him explode. It's got some random human shooting a dog, and earlier, shooting an elderly couple, solely out of entertainment. It's got Dr. Gero randomly decapitating a civilian. It's got Gero also impaling Yamcha. We have Zeno wiping out Trunks' entire future timeline, permanently.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 6:09 am

Yes, thesis, as in thesis statement that you would put at the beginning of a research paper, essay (short or long), or in this case, a post. Thesis just means statement you intend to prove, so it's apt. There's also no need to put "thesis" in quotes. In this case, your thesis is "DBZ is fairly dark".

So you've shown there are darker elements, but not that the story itself is dark. I've said plenty of times that there are darker periods in the story. You also seem to confine your examples to just DBZ, which I would say is more serious than the first third, but it's all DB and must be taken as a whole. Lastly, you qualified your statement as "fairly," which I'm glad you did. The body count isn't the determining factor in what constitutes dark. The outlook of the story must be factored in. Breaking Bad has a lot of death, as does The Wire, but it pales in comparison to Dragon Ball's, and yet, it would be asinine to argue DB is a darker story than either one I mentioned. DB uses darker elements to increase the tension. It is an action-adventure series afterall, but it's not existentially dark. The characters go on adventures, happiness is their general state, not the exception, and they achieve the goals they set for themselves.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by mfwlegend3 » Thu May 30, 2019 7:27 am

DB as a whole is not fucking dark. This is Toriyama we’re talking about—who I’m not saying isn’t capable of producing dark themes here and there, but his origin is that of a gag manga artist whose forte is poking at smiling pieces of shit with a stick and fart jokes. As soon as the opportunity is presented to him, Toriyama transitions right back into his old roots. It’s been documented that he fucking loved writing and drawing the Great Saiyaman arc. He loves dumb fun.

Lots of stories have dark elements but they don’t define the entire theme of the narrative.

It’s this flawed misconception fans have that produce shit like “Dragon Ball Absalon.”

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 11:51 am

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:09 am
Yes, thesis, as in thesis statement that you would put at the beginning of a research paper, essay (short or long), or in this case, a post. Thesis just means statement you intend to prove, so it's apt. There's also no need to put "thesis" in quotes. In this case, your thesis is "DBZ is fairly dark".
This is an analysis of a work of fiction, not a presentation on bloody particle physics.

At this point, it's literally just an argument over whether DB is worthy of the label "dark". Obviously it is for some people, and you already know the reasons why, regardless if you think they're good reasons or not.

So you've shown there are darker elements, but not that the story itself is dark.
You're just arguing semantics now. "You've proven that this food has sweet elements, but haven't proven that it's sweet".

It's up to the individual if they feel incline to call DBZ dark, based on how much dark elements it has. You arguing with that is just you being full of yourself.

So you've shown there are darker elements, but not that the story itself is dark. I've said plenty of times that there are darker periods in the story. You also seem to confine your examples to just DBZ, which I would say is more serious than the first third, but it's all DB and must be taken as a whole. Lastly, you qualified your statement as "fairly," which I'm glad you did. The body count isn't the determining factor in what constitutes dark. The outlook of the story must be factored in. Breaking Bad has a lot of death, as does The Wire, but it pales in comparison to Dragon Ball's, and yet, it would be asinine to argue DB is a darker story than either one I mentioned. DB uses darker elements to increase the tension. It is an action-adventure series afterall, but it's not existentially dark. The characters go on adventures, happiness is their general state, not the exception, and they achieve the goals they set for themselves.
Dude, "dark" is not a genre. It's literally just an adjective. There isn't a set of criteria a fictional work has to fulfill to be considered "dark", and that's really the bottom line here. It's literally nothing more than a subjective description one might find themselves describing it as, based on their experience with it. No one is sitting here calling DB a horror story (an actual genre). I dunno what's with your textbook approach to a simple adjective.

I can call DB dark in the same way I can call Breaking Bad funny. I'm not calling the former a horror, and I'm not calling the latter a comedy. And it would be silly for you to sit here and say "Breaking Bad has funny elements, but it's not funny". Like dude, that's stupid.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 12:10 pm

Please stop getting hung up on the word. It just means your point. I chose thesis because I didn't think you'd get hung up one particular usage of the word. Guess what analyses have? A thesis - a point they are trying to make, even if in a brief form like a post in an internet forum. I didn't mean a doctoral thesis when I used that word. Jeez.
You're just arguing semantics now. "You've proven that this food has sweet elements, but haven't proven that it's sweet".
No, not at all. Lots of stories have darker moments, that doesn't make them inherently dark. Ghostbusters isn't a dark movie even if it uses demonic images and iconography, or that moment when Dana gets groped and pulled into her kitchen by Zuul.

When you are saying it's dark you're saying that as a general state, it's mood is dark. You are arguing the overall tone or mood of the story.

It feels like your go to argument "it's opinion" is such a cop out. If you refuse to take into account the full context of those moments and the overall approach to the story as a whole, then the opinion doesn't hold much weight. You seemed baffled by my comment "smiling poop on a stick" like you had never seen that in Dragon Ball before. There's such a thing as an informed opinion.
Last edited by ABED on Thu May 30, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu May 30, 2019 12:13 pm

Melee-Sovereign all those examples are just only moments (i.e: sequence of events that are either a few panels or few pages long, at most they're slightly longer that a single chapter) within the story of DB and most of them happening many chapters far apart. DB is made out of hundreads of chapters, singling out a few dozen moments from a Five hundread plus chapters story and calling it a fairly dark is very myopic.
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