Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:47 pm

Block88 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:35 pm
Regardless jiren >nu broly as menacing antagonist
Fans will eating anything toei throws at them regardless whether it’s good or bad.
That's incredibly condescending. Fans of what exactly?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:48 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:51 pm
PremiumSalt wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:35 pm
I love Nozawa, but I disagree with the decision to have her voice every male relative of Goku (aside from Raditz). I don't think she does a good job of distinguishing the voices at all, and that causes issues especially once you get to episodes where both Goku and Gohan are adults.
It's very easy to tell the difference. Her performance as Gohan is much more reserved.
yeah her gohan is pretty different from goku's, i've never really confused them. it's been forever since i've watched the boo saga so i can't remember her goten that well but i think it's different enough from her kid goku and gohan voices.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:53 am

Block88 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:31 pm
omegacwa wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:47 am
I'm not sure if this is unpopular or not but Toppo is way cooler than Jiren. His design is more interesting and his transformation into a G.o.D. is more intriguing than Jiren's backstory. Plus he was all about being a hero of justice.
Nah only after he went GOD he was cooler until he jobbed to vegeta
So any character who loses to Vegeta isn't cool anymore? That's a huge list.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:36 am

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but this is how I thought the ToP should have gone...

Toppo becomes a God of Destruction, eliminates 17 and "eliminates" Freeza.

Vegeta fights and defeats Toppo with Final Destruction then turns to stone.

Goku fights Jiren alone, most of the same stuff happens. MUI fails, Freeza recovers, Freeza and Goku Eliminate Jiren and themselves.

No winner is declared.

Suddenly the stone body of Vegeta cracks apart revealing that Vegeta had survived due to his new Evolution power.

Vegeta wins and makes the wish to bring back everyone.

The reason I feel this works a little better is the fact that throughout the tournament it was made clear that Vegeta was going to use the wish for that reason (or at least to revive universe 6 bare minimum) I think it would have been a nice wrap up. Give Vegeta the "win" without really winning and show his massive change from the Saiyan arc from going from a genocidal maniac to literally the person who brings trillions+ of lives back.

17 winning was odd, and I feel a lot of people agree he felt kind of raised up as a character for no reason whatsoever.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:39 am

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:36 am

17 winning was odd, and I feel a lot of people agree he felt kind of raised up as a character for no reason whatsoever.

I was under the impression it was in order to throw a “curve” ending because people would expect Goku or Vegeta to win. Not because the series inexplicably wanted to raise 17 up.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:07 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:39 am
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:36 am

17 winning was odd, and I feel a lot of people agree he felt kind of raised up as a character for no reason whatsoever.

I was under the impression it was in order to throw a “curve” ending because people would expect Goku or Vegeta to win. Not because the series inexplicably wanted to raise 17 up.
Oh I get it. I just feel it was a twist for no reason. Also it has now lead to 17 is "as strong as super saiyan blue" arguments, which, IMO, is not true at all. The whole ToP was full of SSJ1/2 level characters outside of the absolute top tier (Goku/Vegeta/Jiren/Toppo/Feeza), just because 17 was there towards the end doesn't mean he's that strong.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Block88 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:53 am
Block88 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:31 pm
omegacwa wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:47 am
I'm not sure if this is unpopular or not but Toppo is way cooler than Jiren. His design is more interesting and his transformation into a G.o.D. is more intriguing than Jiren's backstory. Plus he was all about being a hero of justice.
Nah only after he went GOD he was cooler until he jobbed to vegeta
So any character who loses to Vegeta isn't cool anymore? That's a huge list.
It’s about he went out after he had a spectacular debut
He only served to be feed to vegeta in one of the most disappointing fights in super.
Plus he didn’t accomplish anything making it feel like him going GoD wasn’t remotely needed

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:46 am

Block88 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:53 am
Block88 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:31 pm


Nah only after he went GOD he was cooler until he jobbed to vegeta
So any character who loses to Vegeta isn't cool anymore? That's a huge list.
It’s about he went out after he had a spectacular debut
He only served to be feed to vegeta in one of the most disappointing fights in super.
Plus he didn’t accomplish anything making it feel like him going GoD wasn’t remotely needed
It's one of my favorite fights personally.

But I do agree he should have at least eliminated 17. If you read my post from above you can see my feelings on that whole matter.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:00 am

Vegeta should have stayed dead after the Frieza Saga. He became a generic dumbass jobber after that who always followed the same pattern:

-Trains real hard and looks ANGRY
-Meanwhile tolerates living on earth
-Fights a new opponent and when he has the upper hand underestimates the opponent
-Opponent gets stronger
-Opponent beats him, making him look like a loser.

Happened with both all his mayor fights (Goku, Frieza, Cell Buu)
You would imagine him getting a bit smarter after the whole Frieza drama.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:10 am

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:00 am
Vegeta should have stayed dead after the Frieza Saga. He became a generic dumbass jobber after that who always followed the same pattern:

-Trains real hard and looks ANGRY
-Meanwhile tolerates living on earth
-Fights a new opponent and when he has the upper hand underestimates the opponent
-Opponent gets stronger
-Opponent beats him, making him look like a loser.

Happened with both all his mayor fights (Goku, Frieza, Cell Buu)
You would imagine him getting a bit smarter after the whole Frieza drama.
Oph... that's definitely unpopular. Vegeta is arguably the best character on the show. His flaws are part of what make him more relatable.

I agree that I don't particularly like his writing in the middle of the cell arc, but his redemption at the very end by being the catalyst that propels Gohan to victory is great.

Also, hate to be that guy, but Vegeta defeated Goku in the Saiyan arc. If Gohan and CO hadn't interfered Goku would have been dead.

Vegeta suffers from being in the position of secondary lead. Because of this he will, unfortunately, never be used to defeat the main villain, unless it's in a supplemental role, examples being Cell, Buu, Metal Cooler.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:21 am

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:10 am
Hate to be that guy, but Vegeta defeated Goku in the Saiyan arc.
That's a fact, not an opinion. Vegeta as an ape broke every bone in Goku's body. Even before that, the Kaioken damaged Goku's body so much that he couldn't take a simple slap from Yajerobe so even if he didn't transform, Vegeta could've still destroyed Goku.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:47 am

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:10 am
Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:00 am
Vegeta should have stayed dead after the Frieza Saga. He became a generic dumbass jobber after that who always followed the same pattern:

-Trains real hard and looks ANGRY
-Meanwhile tolerates living on earth
-Fights a new opponent and when he has the upper hand underestimates the opponent
-Opponent gets stronger
-Opponent beats him, making him look like a loser.

Happened with both all his mayor fights (Goku, Frieza, Cell Buu)
You would imagine him getting a bit smarter after the whole Frieza drama.
Oph... that's definitely unpopular. Vegeta is arguably the best character on the show. His flaws are part of what make him more relatable.

I agree that I don't particularly like his writing in the middle of the cell arc, but his redemption at the very end by being the catalyst that propels Gohan to victory is great.

Also, hate to be that guy, but Vegeta defeated Goku in the Saiyan arc. If Gohan and CO hadn't interfered Goku would have been dead.

Vegeta suffers from being in the position of secondary lead. Because of this he will, unfortunately, never be used to defeat the main villain, unless it's in a supplemental role, examples being Cell, Buu, Metal Cooler.
vegeta not being great post freeza or being really shitty in the cell arc is not really a unpopular opinion on kanzenshuu i think. he's so god damn annoying in the cell arc, and i think his redemption or whatever is really botched, there's really no reason for any of the character's to trust him.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:51 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:47 am
vegeta not being great post freeza or being really shitty in the cell arc is not really a unpopular opinion on kanzenshuu i think. he's so god damn annoying in the cell arc, and i think his redemption or whatever is really botched, there's really no reason for any of the character's to trust him.
You could argue the same for Piccolo. Why would anyone trust him other than Gohan during the Saiyan Arc? As far as the vast majority of the cast goes Piccolo is still a villain by the time the Saiyans arrive.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Block88 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:53 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:46 am
Block88 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 am
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:53 am


So any character who loses to Vegeta isn't cool anymore? That's a huge list.
It’s about he went out after he had a spectacular debut
He only served to be feed to vegeta in one of the most disappointing fights in super.
Plus he didn’t accomplish anything making it feel like him going GoD wasn’t remotely needed
It's one of my favorite fights personally.

But I do agree he should have at least eliminated 17. If you read my post from above you can see my feelings on that whole matter.
I seen it and I disagree
A fight like that should’ve been a hard fought contest between heavyweights with vegeta doing everything he can to beat toppo instead a cheap poorly done nod to when he blew himself up in the Buu saga

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:01 pm

sintzu wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:21 am
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:10 am
Hate to be that guy, but Vegeta defeated Goku in the Saiyan arc.
That's a fact, not an opinion. Vegeta as an ape broke every bone in Goku's body. Even before that, the Kaioken damaged Goku's body so much that he couldn't take a simple slap from Yajerobe so even if he didn't transform, Vegeta could've still destroyed Goku.
Yes. Vegeta gets beaten by Goku but look at the cycle:

-Fights a new opponent and when he has the upper hand underestimates the opponent
-Opponent gets stronger
-Opponent beats him, making him look like a loser.

Vegeta clearly has the upper hand when he was Oozaru but he clearly underestimates Goku (and Gohan/Kuririn/Yajirobe). I'd say in this case his opponent doesn't get stronger, but Vegeta gets weaker by underestimating said characters.
He gets beaten and has to escape, looking like a loser.

A slight deviation from the pattern but this generic cycle mostly applies to this fight as well. Vegeta is like the DBZ version of Kane. He looks awesome and super strong but when it comes down to it he gets beaten. It's incredible how they never gave him a big win versus a major character. He can only get a win against jokes like Kui and Zarbon. (and even against Zarbon he needed 2 fights with the first one being a prominent example of the cycle)
After that he kills Android 20...and PuiPui. Wow, that is sure impressive.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:19 pm

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Yes. Vegeta gets beaten by Goku but look at the cycle:

-Fights a new opponent and when he has the upper hand underestimates the opponent
-Opponent gets stronger
-Opponent beats him, making him look like a loser.

Vegeta clearly has the upper hand when he was Oozaru but he clearly underestimates Goku (and Gohan/Kuririn/Yajirobe). I'd say in this case his opponent doesn't get stronger, but Vegeta gets weaker by underestimating said characters.
He gets beaten and has to escape, looking like a loser.

A slight deviation from the pattern but this generic cycle mostly applies to this fight as well. Vegeta is like the DBZ version of Kane. He looks awesome and super strong but when it comes down to it he gets beaten. It's incredible how they never gave him a big win versus a major character. He can only get a win against jokes like Kui and Zarbon. (and even against Zarbon he needed 2 fights with the first one being a prominent example of the cycle)
After that he kills Android 20...and PuiPui. Wow, that is sure impressive.
So you only like Goku? Most of the major characters never defeat anywhere close to as many characters as Vegeta has.

Vegeta beats or assists in the defeat of:
Goku in the saiyan arc
Tons of namekian warriors
the entire ginyu force
Dodoria
Zarbon
Cui
Android 19
Metal Cooler
Android 15
Cell
Pui Pui
Goku (sort of as Majin Vegeta)
Buu
Janemba
Freeza
Frost
Cabba
Mageto
Zamasu and Goku Black (more or less)
Tons of eliminations in the ToP
Toppo
Super Broly

This list doesn't even include all the characters he could have easily annihilated during any given arc. Now compare that with other characters like Krillin or Piccolo.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:25 pm

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:01 pm
Vegeta is like the DBZ version of Kane. He looks awesome and super strong but when it comes down to it he gets beaten. It's incredible how they never gave him a big win versus a major character. He can only get a win against jokes like Kui and Zarbon. After that he kills Android 20...and PuiPui. Wow, that is sure impressive.
Vegeta did beat a major character in Z, someone bigger than all the villains, Goku. Vegeta won that one on one fight during the Saiyan arc. The reason he didn't beat any major villain in Z (apart from the fact there were only 3 of them apart from himself) is because his character arc is about changing from a villain to a good guy, it's not about beating the villains. That was Goku's story (and Gohan and Trunks' stories in the Cell arc). Vegeta may not have gotten to take down any major villain in Z, but he always put up a good fight before going down. The reason he's so liked is because of the changes he goes through and his willingness to never give up, no matter how bad things look. Apart from one on one combat, it was Vegeta's plan and his ability to hold off Kid Buu that allowed Goku to kill him, so although he didn't beat him himself, he still achieved a victory over him through his plan and ability to hold him off Goku.

Once his character arc was complete and he became a good guy, he was allowed to take down major villains such as Golden Freeza, Black, & Toppo. He was also able to hold his own against Broly without having to use SsjB in their fight.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:47 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:19 pm
Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Yes. Vegeta gets beaten by Goku but look at the cycle:

-Fights a new opponent and when he has the upper hand underestimates the opponent
-Opponent gets stronger
-Opponent beats him, making him look like a loser.

Vegeta clearly has the upper hand when he was Oozaru but he clearly underestimates Goku (and Gohan/Kuririn/Yajirobe). I'd say in this case his opponent doesn't get stronger, but Vegeta gets weaker by underestimating said characters.
He gets beaten and has to escape, looking like a loser.

A slight deviation from the pattern but this generic cycle mostly applies to this fight as well. Vegeta is like the DBZ version of Kane. He looks awesome and super strong but when it comes down to it he gets beaten. It's incredible how they never gave him a big win versus a major character. He can only get a win against jokes like Kui and Zarbon. (and even against Zarbon he needed 2 fights with the first one being a prominent example of the cycle)
After that he kills Android 20...and PuiPui. Wow, that is sure impressive.
So you only like Goku? Most of the major characters never defeat anywhere close to as many characters as Vegeta has.

Vegeta beats or assists in the defeat of:
Goku in the saiyan arc
Tons of namekian warriors
the entire ginyu force
Dodoria
Zarbon
Cui
Android 19
Metal Cooler
Android 15
Cell
Pui Pui
Goku (sort of as Majin Vegeta)
Buu
Janemba
Freeza
Frost
Cabba
Mageto
Zamasu and Goku Black (more or less)
Tons of eliminations in the ToP
Toppo
Super Broly

This list doesn't even include all the characters he could have easily annihilated during any given arc. Now compare that with other characters like Krillin or Piccolo.
Let's look at that list.
First of, I don't really watch Super so I'll just focus on Z since I have actually watched that series whole. Secondly, I was talking about major fights. Not fights with people that are on screen for less than a few episodes. Also, I count the times he beats an opponent in a fight. Killing of KO'd opponents isn't the same thing.

Goku in the saiyan arc
He didn't kill Goku but he did beat him on points so to speak so I'll give you that one. That being said, he lost to Kuririn at the same time which is kinda sad.

Tons of namekian warriors
Yeah those were just cannon fodder. Even Chiaotzu could have beaten hem.

the entire ginyu force
He beat Jeice, and Guldo. He got pummeled by Recoome. Yes he killed Burter and Recoome, but that was after they were KO'd by Goku.
Doesn't count to me as beating them.

Dodoria
Zarbon

Cui
I don't see them as strong or major opponents, especially Cui. Dodoria was a fat joke. Zarbon was more interesting but he beat Vegeta first so I call that one a tie.

Android 19
Yep, beat him

Metal Cooler
Android 15
Janemba

I really don't take movie fights seriously since they're scaled and paced way different than the series. After all, we don't see Goku's bird reviving powers on a regular base in the series for example.

Cell
He did assist in beating Cell. so did Yamcha.

Pui Pui
Yep, and killed him in a cool way as well.

Goku (sort of as Majin Vegeta)
He did beat Goku....only Goku held back and took a dive in the fight as he later on revealed.

Buu
Didn't beat him but he was a good punching bag for the last part of the fight.

For such a major character he has very few important victories which is pretty odd considering how popular he is. I don't really like Vegeta but it would have been refreshing if he really did kill Fat Buu with the arc continuing on with a new danger entering the fight. Hell, don't let Dabura fight Buu and have him be the grand master behind everything and the final villain of Z. He looks the part.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:58 pm

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:47 pm
He lost to Kuririn at the same time which is kinda sad.

He did assist in beating Cell. so did Yamcha.

Don't let Dabura fight Buu and have him be the grand master behind everything and the final villain of Z. He looks the part.
He did ? Krillin hit him with the spirit bomb with Gohan's help but even then he still got back up. The only reason they survived, not won, is because Vegeta cut off Gohan's tail from the wrong position. Had he calculated where Gohan would've fallen, they would've been done. Vegeta beat himself in that fight.

It was Vegeta's attack that distracted Cell, Not Yamcha's or anyone else. In the manga Vegeta is the only one who tried to help Gohan.

That's...a good idea.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:03 pm

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:47 pm


Cell
He did assist in beating Cell. so did Yamcha.



Goku (sort of as Majin Vegeta)
He did beat Goku....only Goku held back and took a dive in the fight as he later on revealed.



Buu
Didn't beat him but he was a good punching bag for the last part of the fight.
You are honestly considering Yamcha's ineffective filler attack on par with Vegeta's attack which actually stunned and distracted Cell to the point where Gohan was able to win?

Goku didn't take a dive, not using a dangerous power draining form and instead choosing to use his optimal ssj2 form is not taking a dive.

The Spirit Bomb was Vegeta's Idea and he held off Kid Buu long enough for it to work. That counts.

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