Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
omegacwa
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:01 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by omegacwa » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:07 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:31 pm
Toyotaro's work is simply bad. He can't draw, he can't write and his designs are so meh it's amazing to me that he landed a job of a lifetime nothing but a glorified fan artist and never will be more he hasn't improved once at all.
While I agree that he has his faults, I find this comment extremely rude. The dude can clearly draw and is a near match to Toriyama style. His issues are more with pacing and clear action than anything else.

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:59 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:56 am
If anyone's gonna complain about not seeing the seeds of what happened to inform his development, I guess I can understand, but Toriyama just didn't wanna show it, which let the anime staff work in filler where it fit nicely. Good on them, but if it's not in the manga, it's not there, sorry. And I can't be asked to care, honestly.
It's not in the manga, but it is there. Why do you not care just because it's not in the manga?
If it's not a story intended or started by Toriyama & was just made by the anime staff, when it comes to the adaptations of the manga, I don't care, even if it's good. Rarely has DB filler made me think, "I wish Toriyama had put something like this in the manga." Some of it also contradicts stuff they kept in from the manga, like Hell, so it can get frustrating.

I have different feelings towards the different parts of the anime stuff of DB in this regard. The movies before Battle of Gods, though some of them are enjoyable for what they are, I'm cool with not being officially in the timeline of the show, especially with the continuity problems most of them have.

GT is ok as a "whit if?" series.

Super is mixed, since a lot of it is both canon & not canon. The main plots & beats ARE canon, but everything else influenced by either Toyotaro or the Toei staff technically isn't, since both were allowed to have their own interpretation of events rather than Toriyama being part of the storyboarding process like he was during the movies, where he wrote the whole scripts. But, the filler slice of life episodes serve multiple purposes rather than just being there to eat up time 'til they can adapt the next manga chapters, so they're fine & they're part of the show since the show's not a part of the manga &, thus, the staff can reincorporate stuff from them if they want in the main arcs.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4910
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:23 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:12 pm

Yellow Super Saiyan forms are too trash looking it and just so ugly
I dont understand this one. It looks great matches really well with their outfits, unike Blue where they have lot of blue on their gi/armor anyway so it clashes horribly like Toriyama used the blue paint tool a bit too much

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4910
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:26 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:58 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:40 pm
I never saw it as a denial. He never denied that he had Saiyan blood, but he was in fact correct that he wasn't a part of Saiyan culture.
He seemed to be in tune enough with Saiyan culture to attribute his love of fighting to the fact that he’s a Saiyan. I’m not sure what more he needed to understand about what it means to be a Saiyan.
I always thought since the only three other Saiyans he met (Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta) were evil bastards, he was basically like "I'm not one of them"

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:26 am

That's something I don't understand at all. I get why someone places more importance on the story written by the original author, but to outright dismiss anything, especially an adaptation, regardless of quality feels shortsighted.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:13 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:26 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:58 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:40 pm
I never saw it as a denial. He never denied that he had Saiyan blood, but he was in fact correct that he wasn't a part of Saiyan culture.
He seemed to be in tune enough with Saiyan culture to attribute his love of fighting to the fact that he’s a Saiyan. I’m not sure what more he needed to understand about what it means to be a Saiyan.
I always thought since the only three other Saiyans he met (Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta) were evil bastards, he was basically like "I'm not one of them"
That’s certainly what Toei liked to suggest with stuff like DBZ Movie 3, but as far as the original manga is concerned, Goku never seemed to have any problem accepting the fact that he’s a Saiyan.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:15 pm

Again, it's not the genetics he's rejecting, it's their disposition.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:30 pm

The idea of Goku rejecting anything to do with the Saiyan race is still something that’s pretty much exclusive to Toei’s version. There wasn’t really any point in the manga where Goku went “No, I’m not like you guys!” He didn’t seem to care one way or the other. Frankly, having a character distance themself from their heritage out of moral disgust isn’t really the kind of thing Toriyama would tackle in the first place. Goku is too simple of a character for that.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:35 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:30 pm
The idea of Goku rejecting anything to do with the Saiyan race is still something that’s pretty much exclusive to Toei’s version. There wasn’t really any point in the manga where Goku went “No, I’m not like you guys!” He didn’t seem to care one way or the other. Frankly, having a character distance themself from their heritage out of moral disgust isn’t really the kind of thing Toriyama would tackle in the first place. Goku is too simple of a character for that.
But it's not out of character or contradictory. I wouldn't say he doesn't care one way or the other. He clearly isn't like them and their methods. And while he doesn't explicitly say it, his actions clearly show that he doesn't think of himself as a Saiyan nor endorse their culture. He does show disgust at their actions, such as when Vegeta murders Nappa for being injured. At worst, the vision scene is redundant since he has a similar sentiment when he buries Vegeta.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: minnesota
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:01 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:30 pm
The idea of Goku rejecting anything to do with the Saiyan race is still something that’s pretty much exclusive to Toei’s version. There wasn’t really any point in the manga where Goku went “No, I’m not like you guys!”
he definitely does say something like that to raditz. yeah, after he trains with kaio he does accept the fact that he is saiyan, but he definitely doesn't it at first (he even straight up rejects raditz as his brother) and seems rather horrified with saiyans as a whole when raditz shows up.
they/them pronouns
my twitter
14 year old me didn't know how to spell "Saiya"......

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 pm

Not finishing Nappa, Rikum, Jeice, Burta and Ginyu (and I'll include Freeza too) is more elocuent than any spoken dialogue Toriyama could've possibly come up with to distance Goku from the rest of the saiyans.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:35 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 pm
Not finishing Nappa, Rikum, Jeice, Burta and Ginyu (and I'll include Freeza too) is more elocuent than any spoken dialogue Toriyama could've possibly come up with to distance Goku from the rest of the saiyans.
Goku has regularly killed enemies throughout the manga. He even killed a fleeing Staff Officer Black.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:48 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:35 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 pm
Not finishing Nappa, Rikum, Jeice, Burta and Ginyu (and I'll include Freeza too) is more elocuent than any spoken dialogue Toriyama could've possibly come up with to distance Goku from the rest of the saiyans.
Goku has regularly killed enemies throughout the manga. He even killed a fleeing Staff Officer Black.
Most of the times he killed when necessary, like when someone wouldn't stop attacking him or present an immediate danger. He doesn't kill people out of bloodlust, not even his worst enemy. He's not a murderer. Vegeta gleefully kills people. It's not the same thing at all.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
PremiumSalt
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:58 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:07 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:48 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:35 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 pm
Not finishing Nappa, Rikum, Jeice, Burta and Ginyu (and I'll include Freeza too) is more elocuent than any spoken dialogue Toriyama could've possibly come up with to distance Goku from the rest of the saiyans.
Goku has regularly killed enemies throughout the manga. He even killed a fleeing Staff Officer Black.
Most of the times he killed when necessary, like when someone wouldn't stop attacking him or present an immediate danger. He doesn't kill people out of bloodlust, not even his worst enemy. He's not a murderer. Vegeta gleefully kills people. It's not the same thing at all.
I mean, I think he was pretty intent on killing Piccolo from the very beginning of the Piccolo Daimaō arc.
Dragon Ball Arc Rankings: 1. Piccolo Daimaō 2. Saiyan 3. 22nd Budōkai 4. 23rd Budōkai 5. Hunt For the Dragon Balls 6. Zamasu 7. Tournament of Power 8. 21st Budōkai 9. Broly 10. Battle of Gods 11. Boo 12. U6 Tournament 13. Freeza 14. Red Ribbon Army 15. Artificial Humans/Cell 16.Golden Freeza
Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:10 pm

Sure, he wanted revenge, but I think we can all understand why and see that even if none of his friends were killed, Goku would have EVERY reason and justification to kill Piccolo. He was a very real and immediate threat to the world.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:48 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:35 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 pm
Not finishing Nappa, Rikum, Jeice, Burta and Ginyu (and I'll include Freeza too) is more elocuent than any spoken dialogue Toriyama could've possibly come up with to distance Goku from the rest of the saiyans.
Goku has regularly killed enemies throughout the manga. He even killed a fleeing Staff Officer Black.
Most of the times he killed when necessary, like when someone wouldn't stop attacking him or present an immediate danger. He doesn't kill people out of bloodlust, not even his worst enemy. He's not a murderer. Vegeta gleefully kills people. It's not the same thing at all.
As I said though, he killed Black when he tried to run away. That sort of makes Goku’s sudden resistance to killing in the Freeza arc seem a tad hypocritical.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:08 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:59 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:48 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:35 pm


Goku has regularly killed enemies throughout the manga. He even killed a fleeing Staff Officer Black.
Most of the times he killed when necessary, like when someone wouldn't stop attacking him or present an immediate danger. He doesn't kill people out of bloodlust, not even his worst enemy. He's not a murderer. Vegeta gleefully kills people. It's not the same thing at all.
As I said though, he killed Black when he tried to run away. That sort of makes Goku’s sudden resistance to killing in the Freeza arc seem a tad hypocritical.
Let's set aside Goku trying to give him a chance to give up and go to the police. Let's also set aside that Black had just moments earlier shot a missile at him. Goku is 12 when he took down the RRA, and in his early 20's when he fights Freeza. Are we really going to consider it hypocritical to change one's mind and behavior after a decade? That's hardly sudden.

For the record, I think Goku is perfectly justified in killing the head of a paramilitary organization intent on taking over the world, especially after he gave said de-facto leader ample opportunity to give up and turn himself in but declined and attacked and tried to kill him, and who only fled when every weapon he used proved ineffective.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: minnesota
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:26 pm

goku is kinda all over the map in the freeza fight as a whole, i think one chapter ends with him saying he's not gonna let freeza buy himself time and that he's gonna "put an end to this once and for all", and than the next one opens up with him letting freeza go full power so that he can see the strongest guy in the universe.
they/them pronouns
my twitter
14 year old me didn't know how to spell "Saiya"......

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:56 pm

That's fair, but it's heat of the battle and the more in control of the fight he gets, the less knee jerk his choices become.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

MyVisionity
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:22 pm

I think it's worth noting that the Red Ribbon soldiers who Goku killed were all inside of aircrafts or some kind of mecha. He was usually trying to stop the machines, not kill the people inside. He's no murderer.

Additionally, a lot of the deaths from that era of Dragon Ball were played for comedy and shouldn't be taken as seriously as later material.

Post Reply