Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:12 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:05 pm
I haven't watched enough One Piece to really comment on whether Goku has (ironically) become a Luffy clones but I absolutely do agree that people get way too hung up on original intention. As absurd as this is going to sound, writers are the last people you should ask about their characters. They have way too intimate a relationship with them and it colors their vision. It's almost like describing a close family member to a stranger. You can describe pretty reliably what your family member would do/say but the way you describe them probably wouldn't be all that objective. Take, for example, the queen of mystery stories, Agatha Christie and her creation Hercule Poirot. If asked, Christie would consistently describe Poirot as a self-important fop not half as smart as he thinks he is and who's way too interested in his own fame. But when it came time to write him, Christie always depicted the same good natured, if vain, relentless detective clearly motivated by a strong belief in justice.

Maybe this is me giving Toriyama too much credit but that feels like the situation with Goku.
Toriyama's situation is unique. He's clearly a bit jaded from how Toei handled adapting his works in the past when it comes to certain character portrayals, so he consciously made decisions in the manga to make Goku more outwardly selfish, but not overly ruining the character or experience, outside of some logic problems when he overplayed it, which, admittedly, was only a few times. In every other instance, Toriyama portrays Goku as a person who fights for what's right despite his want to have a good battle. Toei's writers, & even some segments of the fandom who don't know how to properly judge the material & are afraid to criticize Toriyama as a result, meanwhile, over inflate Goku's selfishness to an absurd degree as well as his stupidity.
The stupidity angle, as well as this "bad father" shit, I partially blame on Team Four Star. I love DBZ Abridged & TFS as people, but their carrying on for years with those interpretations of the characters have unfortunately colored them in different lights for some people than intended & they've only more recently started to amend those, to the point where, when they showed Goku looking over Chichi & Gohan in that last short, it came off as jarring to some people as opposed to heartwarming like was intended. The worst argument against its inclusion was people pointing out how, in Z, Goku didn't know who Goten was or checked in with them over the 7 years he was gone. Yes, as if TFS doesn't introduce new things into the material that weren't there in the original version before all the fucking time. The only reason you bring it up now is because it goes against your preconceived notions of how TFS view the show, as well as how they adapt it, & how you people wrongly interpret the material in the original Z, so you don't like it. Fucking idiots. But, yeah, them tearing Goku down for the longest time with their version of him (even then, Goku's only a bad dad from Gohan's perspective, since Gohan has a lot of misplaced anger aimed at him in Abridged), as well as propping up Piccolo as a better father (which is, frankly, absurd, given Piccolo's actual characterization & place in the story) have really impacted fan interpretations of the original material, even though they're a PARODY, not the original material, which Kaiser is always quick to say himself. They're not meant to be the official version of it.

As for the Luffy comparisons, he's not 1:1 Luffy. He's still got enough traits to be recognizable as Goku, it's just that others are inflated to absurd degrees to make him more like Luffy. I'm just saying that the Toei writers have been writing Luffy for 2 decades now, so that's no surprise. DB literally ended & gave way for One Piece to take its spot as the most popular manga & anime series in Japan, so it's not surprising that they'd be more familiar with the tamplate of Luffy than Goku.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

Dbzfan94
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5117
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:51 pm
]How is it one of the most destructive forces in the universe?
Are you seriously trying to say Kid Buu isnt exactly that?

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:51 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:52 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:51 pm
]How is it one of the most destructive forces in the universe?
Are you seriously trying to say Kid Buu isnt exactly that?
Kid Buu is, but I'm talking about reincarnation as a concept. I don't understand the point that reincarnation is one of the most destructive forces. Based on what?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Wizard Sesame
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:19 am

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Wizard Sesame » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:44 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:51 pm
Kid Buu is, but I'm talking about reincarnation as a concept. I don't understand the point that reincarnation is one of the most destructive forces. Based on what?
It says reincarnation of, not reincarnation is. You're reading the original post incorrectly.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:58 pm

Wizard Sesame wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:44 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:51 pm
Kid Buu is, but I'm talking about reincarnation as a concept. I don't understand the point that reincarnation is one of the most destructive forces. Based on what?
It says reincarnation of, not reincarnation is. You're reading the original post incorrectly.
My bad. Regardless, he's not interesting. People fall in love with ideas and pretty much anything can sound good when it's just an idea.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Dbzfan94
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5117
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:51 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:52 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:51 pm
]How is it one of the most destructive forces in the universe?
Are you seriously trying to say Kid Buu isnt exactly that?
Kid Buu is, but I'm talking about reincarnation as a concept. I don't understand the point that reincarnation is one of the most destructive forces. Based on what?
I believe he was talking about Uub was the reincarnation of said destructive force. Not Uub himself.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:20 pm

Power level discussions aren't pointless because power levels don't matter (they're consistently the most important thing throughout the franchise). They're pointless because the series rejects solutions to problems that don't revolve around displays of power and those sorts of considerations are the only thing that might allow the series peons some credibility. All of the skills that the cast have which should make them more dangerous fighters outright don't matter. Look at Hit or Guldo's time stopping abilities. Or Yamcha's sokidan and Tenshinhan's plethora of different techniques. They're depicted as tricks that true martial artists should be above relying on. Strength and raw physicality are the only things a martial artist should rely on according to the logic of Dragon Ball fighting.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 3122
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:39 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:20 pm
Power level discussions aren't pointless because power levels don't matter (they're consistently the most important thing throughout the franchise). They're pointless because the series rejects solutions to problems that don't revolve around displays of power and those sorts of considerations are the only thing that might allow the series peons some credibility. All of the skills that the cast have which should make them more dangerous fighters outright don't matter. Look at Hit or Guldo's time stopping abilities. Or Yamcha's sokidan and Tenshinhan's plethora of different techniques. They're depicted as tricks that true martial artists should be above relying on. Strength and raw physicality are the only things a martial artist should rely on according to the logic of Dragon Ball fighting.
They are pointless, though. They were introduced in the Saiyan arc as a number for Raditz, Vegeta, and Nappa to yell in surprise when seeing the earthlings power up; while the Freeza forces generally just had high power levels, and if they transformed they'd go up a bit, but the key thing is, most characters in the show have power levels that wildly vary, so ultimately a power reading is utterly meaningless (which is the entire point!!). Toriyama never intended anyone to take them even vaguely seriously, so he never gave them any mind, so they make no sense, and they're never mentioned outside the early and late Saiyan arc, and the early Freeza arc.

The show's solutions to problems are usually either clever techniques, generally smart fighting, or a vague sense of "I trained and got stronger" or "he's even stronger than the last guy we fought!"

One could probably argue the value in debating how strong people are in rough, vague, relative terms, but power levels are utterly stupid and useless. It's like trying to figure out just how rich Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark are by analysing things they've said over the years in the comics, analysing economic trends, etc. and comparing the two.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Want Ocean's Dragon Ball Kai dub to see the light of day? Like this Tweet. And if you can, retweet and reply. A Netflix rep encouraged this avenue of drumming up buzz quite enthusiastically, so this may just be the shot that works!!

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:41 pm

Guldo didn't lose because someone stronger defeated him. He was killed because Vegeta cheated and killed him when his attention was on Kuririn and Gohan.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 3122
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Indeed. Similarly, most of the Tenkaichi Budoukai matches were won with clever technique or other smart fighting, rather than raw strength.
Want Ocean's Dragon Ball Kai dub to see the light of day? Like this Tweet. And if you can, retweet and reply. A Netflix rep encouraged this avenue of drumming up buzz quite enthusiastically, so this may just be the shot that works!!

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:41 pm
Guldo didn't lose because someone stronger defeated him. He was killed because Vegeta cheated and killed him when his attention was on Kuririn and Gohan.
Was that not the original intention of that part of that scene?
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:41 pm

Scsigs wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:41 pm
Guldo didn't lose because someone stronger defeated him. He was killed because Vegeta cheated and killed him when his attention was on Kuririn and Gohan.
Was that not the original intention of that part of that scene?
I don't know what you mean.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:41 pm
Scsigs wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:41 pm
Guldo didn't lose because someone stronger defeated him. He was killed because Vegeta cheated and killed him when his attention was on Kuririn and Gohan.
Was that not the original intention of that part of that scene?
I don't know what you mean.
I didn't know why you posted your thing.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:45 pm

Scsigs wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:41 pm
Scsigs wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm

Was that not the original intention of that part of that scene?
I don't know what you mean.
I didn't know why you posted your thing.
I was replying to the post by It Is Anya You Flips.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:47 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:52 pm
Indeed. Similarly, most of the Tenkaichi Budoukai matches were won with clever technique or other smart fighting, rather than raw strength.
Thats not true, the only victories that came from any sort of real "strategy" that I can recall off head were Roshi turning the Wolf back into a man using Krillin's dome and Krillin using simple math to distract Chaozu. Hardly anything worth touting as a brilliant strategy but its a strat none the less.

The first half of the series always gets a lot of praise over the second half for being more grounded in martial arts as opposed to big energy beams. I cant help but feel like thats a misconception that gained popularity from some joke that someone made some years ago, same with "Goku Bad Bad" and a few other common criticisms.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:02 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:47 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:52 pm
Indeed. Similarly, most of the Tenkaichi Budoukai matches were won with clever technique or other smart fighting, rather than raw strength.
Thats not true, the only victories that came from any sort of real "strategy" that I can recall off head were Roshi turning the Wolf back into a man using Krillin's dome and Krillin using simple math to distract Chaozu. Hardly anything worth touting as a brilliant strategy but its a strat none the less.

The first half of the series always gets a lot of praise over the second half for being more grounded in martial arts as opposed to big energy beams. I cant help but feel like thats a misconception that gained popularity from some joke that someone made some years ago, same with "Goku Bad Bad" and a few other common criticisms.
This is a gross exaggeration. Muten Roshi wins the Tenkaichi Budokai because he hits Goku with his longer legs. Kuririn defeats Chaozu because he uses Chaozu's inability to do math against him. The fight against Vegeta is nothing but strategy.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:25 am

Can’t tell if you’re agreeing with or not man.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:57 am

ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:02 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:47 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:52 pm
Indeed. Similarly, most of the Tenkaichi Budoukai matches were won with clever technique or other smart fighting, rather than raw strength.
Thats not true, the only victories that came from any sort of real "strategy" that I can recall off head were Roshi turning the Wolf back into a man using Krillin's dome and Krillin using simple math to distract Chaozu. Hardly anything worth touting as a brilliant strategy but its a strat none the less.

The first half of the series always gets a lot of praise over the second half for being more grounded in martial arts as opposed to big energy beams. I cant help but feel like thats a misconception that gained popularity from some joke that someone made some years ago, same with "Goku Bad Bad" and a few other common criticisms.
This is a gross exaggeration. Muten Roshi wins the Tenkaichi Budokai because he hits Goku with his longer legs. Kuririn defeats Chaozu because he uses Chaozu's inability to do math against him. The fight against Vegeta is nothing but strategy.
The climax of the first dragon ball hunt is also all strategy. From Oolong cheating Pilaf out of a wish to Yamcha holding Oozaru Goku in place long enough for Puar to cut off his tail. While I do still think that overall power battle is the deciding factor in who wins throughout DB, there was a lot of inventiveness to the early fights.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16556
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:02 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:25 am
Can’t tell if you’re agreeing with or not man.
I'm disagreeing with you.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:35 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:The climax of the first dragon ball hunt is also all strategy. From Oolong cheating Pilaf out of a wish to Yamcha holding Oozaru Goku in place long enough for Puar to cut off his tail. While I do still think that overall power battle is the deciding factor in who wins throughout DB, there was a lot of inventiveness to the early fights.
Neither of those were “all strategy” but characters flying by the seat of their pants.

Post Reply